Yamaha CK61 and CK88

[ImproKeys]

11 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Thanks, there is no way I can see for setting MSB/LSB on the GS, it just sends out 64 as you say. Looks like it’s use just 8 or manually change…or midi into the GS and make the changes in the CK.

Cheers for clarifying that.

Annoyingly, the GS works perfectly with sets in Korg module, so it’s the CK that won’t respond. I tried midi out from CK to the GS and again, only live set 1 will change the Korg favourites, same 8. Would need to set these up manually in MST mode.

 

How about controlling the GS via the CK? Should work.

[Paul Woodward]

45 minutes ago, ImproKeys said:

How about controlling the GS via the CK? Should work.

Indeed, if I turn master keyboard mode on for the CK61 you can specify MSB/LSB. I am still mulling over if I want a Roland JD-Xi at the end of that MIDI chain though.

I am missing the flexibility of the Studiologic SL Studio here, that was a great midi controller for a live set.

[CyberGene]

This may have been discussed already (even me asking it in the past but I don’t remember). What’s the battery life with and without speakers? Particularly with rechargeable NiMh batteries can it last for a few hours rehearsal without speakers? So I can skip on bringing the flimsy adapter. 

[Adan]

4 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Particularly with rechargeable NiMh batteries can it last for a few hours rehearsal without speakers? 

A few hours easily, yes.  I haven't tested the outer limits because I don't seem to get near it in a 3-hour gig.

 

I always bring either the adaptor or extra batteries just because you never know.  What if you accidentally press the power button as you're putting it in the case before heading to the gig? I've done every stupid thing in the book

 

(and by the way, who is writing books about doing stupid things?)

 

With speakers, forgetaboutit.  For speaker operation you need to plug in.

[HSS]

The CK's look like a lot of bang-for-the-buck.  If Yamaha came out with a 73 or 76 key semi-weighted CK, I'd probably jump on it. 

[Paul Woodward]

On 9/21/2023 at 7:47 AM, ImproKeys said:

How about controlling the GS via the CK? Should work.

Indeed, it will. I'm just looking at the midi setup as I want the GS to control/play CK and maybe the ipad as well. Will get it all set up this weekend and try it out. Cheers. 

[Paul Woodward]

Using the Ck61 as a master worked a treat. It now changes the patches on Korg Grandstage and Module. Nice and easy. I guess I saw the weighted bottom board as the master, and I was worried using midi in and out between two machines that there would be double triggering of sounds, but the master keyboard functions of the CK (as good if not better than the YC) mean you can decide what comes in and goes out from four zones. Got some complex set ups going on with just three midi channels and I still need to try the wave trigger function in the sets as well. 

Very happy with this.

[Paul Woodward]

Does anyone know if the CK sends out random midi CC's when changing sets? Having trouble with Korg module (mainly synth) sounds changing. I am checking what CC's are being sent (if any). Presuming I find them, is there a way of turning them off/filtering them? I still need to send CC's such as rotary on off/pitch/mod/sustain etc. but not the ones causing these issues.

Thanks in advance for any advice....

 

[danskeys]

On 9/28/2023 at 10:52 AM, HSS said:

The CK's look like a lot of bang-for-the-buck.  If Yamaha came out with a 73 or 76 key semi-weighted CK, I'd probably jump on it. 

Me too.  And with the discontinuation of the P121 (73-note, GHS piano), without a replacement, this makes even more sense.  I'd prefer a fully weighted 73-note, but I could probably live with the semi-weighted.

[danskeys]

Could anyone compare the CK61 action with the old NP30?  Are they similar?  I just picked up a used NP30 for $50, and I'm curious if the CK61 action is similar.

[AnotherScott]

5 minutes ago, danskeys said:

Could anyone compare the CK61 action with the old NP30?  Are they similar?  I just picked up a used NP30 for $50, and I'm curious if the CK61 action is similar.

One difference is that the NP30 is graded... the lower keys provide more resistance than the top keys. The CK61 has the same feel from top to bottom.

 

Another difference is that the CK has a bit of initial resistance, which dissipates after a certain point as you move through the key's travel, a bit like escapement. I don't think the NP30 has that effect.

[HSS]

1 hour ago, danskeys said:

Me too.  And with the discontinuation of the P121 (73-note, GHS piano), without a replacement, this makes even more sense.  I'd prefer a fully weighted 73-note, but I could probably live with the semi-weighted.

I have a P121 which I really like. The reason I'd prefer a semi-weighted version of a CK is because I suck at playing organ chops on a fully-weighted hammer action board. Each to their own. 

 

In any case, a small footprint 73 or 76 key option is a sweet spot for many low-brow dive bar players like me who usually end up on dinky little stages fighting for a few extra inches of space.

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, HSS said:

In any case, a small footprint 73 or 76 key option is a sweet spot for many low-brow dive bar players like me who usually end up on dinky little stages fighting for a few extra inches of space.

 

That's one of the things I liked about the Kurzweil SP4-7, it was extremely compact for a 7x-key board. Off-hand, I can't think of anything comparable today.

[Paul Woodward]

For anyone running into the issues I have had with the CK and iPad. The CK spits out a LOT of CC’s when it changes program…if you turn Control Channel OFF in global settings, the master keyboard mode still sends out the CC’s specified in each zone.

this is just a bit of what was being sent and the 72 and 73 CC’s are there. Those were affecting the sustain and release. Problem solved I hope.

[AnotherScott]

I think the idea is that MIDI zone master stuff ALWAYS sends its MIDI (it's the reason the feature exists), while the global toggle determines whether the various non-master mode stuff (e.g. all the front panel controls) send out MIDI as well.

[drawback]

Correct - as I posted in the Module thread - turning off global change disables drawbars and Leslie speed switch in B-3X. Master controls such as pedals and wheels still send.

[Paul Woodward]

1 hour ago, drawback said:

Correct - as I posted in the Module thread - turning off global change disables drawbars and Leslie speed switch in B-3X. Master controls such as pedals and wheels still send.

I’m happy to have fixed my issue, but this would no doubt be a problem down the line should we use a dedicated organ app. I only have Module (GarageBand organs have drawbars but I wouldn’t use them anyway), do the drawbars on CK (or YC) control drawbars in B-3X, or the Hammond app?

 

[drawback]

39 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I’m happy to have fixed my issue, but this would no doubt be a problem down the line should we use a dedicated organ app. I only have Module (GarageBand organs have drawbars but I wouldn’t use them anyway), do the drawbars on CK (or YC) control drawbars in B-3X, or the Hammond app?

 

Drawbars work, I've set the mod wheel to turn on/off percussion and the slow/fast switch works for the Leslie. The stop switch works on VB3 but not on B-3X, so I've mapped the sustain pedal as the Leslie brake.  

[HSS]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

That's one of the things I liked about the Kurzweil SP4-7, it was extremely compact for a 7x-key board. Off-hand, I can't think of anything comparable today.

True...  I have a new PC4-7, which has excellent sounds and controller features, but I'm reluctant to give up my old SP4-7 because of its small footprint and sturdy steel build. Of course, the SP4-7's sturdy steel build comes with an extra 5 or 6 lbs. of weight vs. the PC4-7. 

 

Sorry for wandering OT.  

[drawback]

7 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

That's one of the things I liked about the Kurzweil SP4-7, it was extremely compact for a 7x-key board. Off-hand, I can't think of anything comparable today.

One of my biggest regrets was selling mine. And my SA-300, tbt.

[John Tweed]

Has anyone gone from a CP4 to a CK88? Personally I would miss the CF piano, but apart from that the sounds I use seem to be there. I played one at a jam recently and the keyboard felt fine. Anyone else considering the change?

[Paul Woodward]

Slightly off topic, but has it ever been made known how much sample memory is in the CK, or the YC? 

I ask because it's claimed they share the same AWM2 sounds for everything but the organs (VCM on YC), yet the sounds are much less 'rich' to my ears. 

Perfectly serviceable of course, but my last rig (with a YC) played the pianos from an external weighted board. Just doesn't feel like I could do that with the CK. 

It would also give us an idea of what, if any, new sounds might be added in a firmware. 

Has anyone ever compared the main sounds on these? 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

it's claimed they share the same AWM2 sounds for everything but the organs (VCM on YC), yet the sounds are much less 'rich' to my ears. 

I don't remember seeing that claim. And looking at the sound list, while the CK list of AWM sounds is bigger than that of the YC, it does not include all the sounds that are in the YC. (Off-hand, I know it doesn't have one of the flute sounds.)

 

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

Perfectly serviceable of course, but my last rig (with a YC) played the pianos from an external weighted board. Just doesn't feel like I could do that with the CK. 

How they'll play from a weighted board is an interesting question, which I guess you won't know the answer to until you try it. But again, even with the pianos, the CK does not include all the pianos of the YC, as I posted about at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/183138-yamaha-ck61-and-ck88/page/13/#comment-2947486 - so for example, if your piano of choice on the YC was the C7, you won't find that on the CK.

 

 

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

It would also give us an idea of what, if any, new sounds might be added in a firmware. 

When the CP/YC came out, they said that there were updates planned, that was a selling point. The lack of any such marketing verbiage on the CK implies to me that there's no such roadmap/intention. Which isn't to say it might not happen, but they haven't given any indication that it should be expected. 

[drawback]

32 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

When the CP/YC came out, they said that there were updates planned, that was a selling point. The lack of any such marketing verbiage on the CK implies to me that there's no such roadmap/intention. Which isn't to say it might not happen, but they haven't given any indication that it should be expected. 

Hopefully there will be, but yeah, at the price range of the CK it might not be in the plan.

[Paul Woodward]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear when I said about the same sounds. I meant that they were meant to share the same AMW2 engine and have the same quality CFX, Rhodes etc. Just less of them (yet more sounds overall). I just recall the YC CFX sounding better.

I played the CK from am RH3 just yesterday so I have no idea why I said I don't think it could be played from an external weighted board. I meant I don't think I could happily rely on the pianos for a gig, especially when I have a Grandstage. It was late when I posted.. 😅

As for the YC, many disappointed owners due to the lack of timely promised updates. I would say the CK was in the same range as the VR-09 and that had several firmware updates in its life which also added new sounds. 

There are a few bugs to iron out, and CK is listed on Yamaha Ideascale. Surely they wouldn't invite and vote on suggestions if there was no plan to implement any of them? 

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Sorry, I wasn't very clear when I said about the same sounds. I meant that they were meant to share the same AMW2 engine and have the same quality CFX, Rhodes etc. Just less of them (yet more sounds overall). I just recall the YC CFX sounding better.

 

The YC has a single CFX Voice, named "CFX.". The CK has 6 of them. I guess the one most likely to be the same as the YC version would be the first one, "CFX Stereo" -- but it's not impossible that none of the CK's 6 CFX voices are programmed identically to the one in the YC (even assuming that the underlying sample set is indeed the same). At least, none of them have an identical name.

 

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I played the CK from am RH3 just yesterday so I have no idea why I said I don't think it could be played from an external weighted board. I meant I don't think I could happily rely on the pianos for a gig, especially when I have a Grandstage. It was late when I posted.. 😅

 

Ah! I interpreted it differently. I thought you were saying that the CK piano was so disappointing that you don't think even playing it from an attached hammer action would sound good. 😉

 

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

I would say the CK was in the same range as the VR-09 and that had several firmware updates in its life which also added new sounds. 

Yes, you can find examples of boards that have had sounds added to them in an update, even though they were not originally promised. You can probably find more that have not. 😉 I'm not saying it's impossible, I just wouldn't expect it. It would be a nice bonus. 

 

Only one VR-09 update ever added sounds. The odd thing about the VR is that, as Frank's editor showed, the VR-09 actually has a ton of OTHER sounds already built into it, they're just not readily accessible. I would not be surprised to find that the sounds added in that one update were actually only making available some of the "hidden" sounds that were already in it!

 

4 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

There are a few bugs to iron out, and CK is listed on Yamaha Ideascale. Surely they wouldn't invite and vote on suggestions if there was no plan to implement any of them? 

 

If there were to be a firmware update, I think the most likely thing would be to fix any bugs they came across, the second most likely thing would be to enhance operation in some way, and the least likely would be to add sounds (which is the one that most depends on the board having been built with such an ability in mind). 

 

As for Ideascale, they also promote that as a place to request things for future products. So the fact that they are canvassing for ideas for the CK doesn't mean an update is planned... they could also be looking at those ideas as things to consider adding to a CK2 if and when they come out with one, ideas for how to improve it. But if they are motivated to do a firmware update at all (e.g. even if only to fix bugs, which would be is another reason to leave an ideascale suggestion, if something isn't working right), one would hope that they might at least consider adding some requested features that might be easy to implement and of obvious use.

[Paul Woodward]

All good points as ever @AnotherScott, I think the underlying feeling for me is that the CK doesn’t sound like the YC in the areas I thought it might. The blurb from several sources sells it as having piano sounds from the CP series and organs from the Reface. One of those may be true. Perhaps it just needs some tweaking, certainly the pianos on Soundmondo from Blake do seem better, and at the end of the day I am using this as a top board. I just had an idea of keeping the heavier GS at home and running everything from the YC and an external board like I did before.

Anyway, dead horse flogging now. It’s not a YC so shouldn’t expect it to sound like one. It’s still a lovely board. Here’s hoping it gets some quality of life fixes and, if new sounds are added, it would be an unexpected surprise.

[CyberGene]

I’ve been researching the CK for a while but to me it also seems the sounds are a bit lukewarm and not up to the same quality as the ones in the CP/YC series. It’s possible that they are lite versions (less memory for AWM samples?) of the same patches. 
 

In any case the CK is a tempting option for live playing, especially for the price and all the features. 

[pjd]

18 hours ago, Paul Woodward said:

Slightly off topic, but has it ever been made known how much sample memory is in the CK, or the YC? 

I ask because it's claimed they share the same AWM2 sounds for everything but the organs (VCM on YC), yet the sounds are much less 'rich' to my ears. 

 

I've been meaning to deep dive the Stage YC for a while, but there always seems to be something higher priority... 😀

 

The Stage YC has two Yamaha processors: SWX09 and SWP70. The SWP70 has the waveform memory: 2Gbyte total ONFI-compatible NAND flash. I suspect that the SWX09 is doing the heavy lifting vis a vis drawbars and/or rotary speaker -- just guess work. Yamaha doesn't tell me anything.

 

Given the CK price points, I expect to see only an SWX09 with waveform memory. If anyone cracks open their CK, please take pictures such that the IC markings are readable -- none of that fuzzy, jerky video crap on Youtube. 🙃

 

Yamaha have swung conservative WRT policy on service manuals and I don't feel like dancing with them right now. 😒

 

As to CP88 internals, your guess is as good as mine. The Clavinova CLPs have only an SWX09. CP88 doesn't do FM, so no need for SWP70. That (and other reasons) is why I think Stage CP is due for Mark 2 based on a new platform.

 

As to CK updates. Maybe to fix a critical bug? Vendors have no profit motive to update $1,000 keyboards. Good will, yes; money, no.

 

All the best! My 88 shopping goes on and on -- pj

 

[pjd]

13 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I’ve been researching the CK for a while but to me it also seems the sounds are a bit lukewarm and not up to the same quality as the ones in the CP/YC series. It’s possible that they are lite versions (less memory for AWM samples?) of the same patches. 
 

In any case the CK is a tempting option for live playing, especially for the price and all the features. 

 

After reading through the CK voice list and having played CK, I think they are recycling voices from the arranger series keyboards. Having Genos at hand (and played a mid-range S950 early on), I don't think these are the better (or best) voices in the arranger line. If someone is considering a CK61 in particular, you might want to try or compare with an SX700. The PSR-SX700 has the so-called "Organ Flutes" drawbar organ -- which is probably the same tech ripped off for the Reface YC and CK. Just sayin'.

 

I like the CK at its price point, but there are alternatives.

 

All the best to ya -- pj