Tired of Playing Horn Parts?

[MathOfInsects]

And then there's this. I have never played with this BL before and his introductory text above this exchange is the first we've ever been in contact. And yet--smart cat--he knew the right things to say to get a keyboardist on board!

[MathOfInsects]

4 hours ago, mate stubb said:

 

OMG, this just reminded me of a horrible gig I had. Drummer is the BL, and I got called to fill in a couple times. He had a 3 piece horn section that was the absolute pits. They sounded like they had never rehearsed together, never learned the song, couldn't read charts, and couldn't play their instruments in tune - with themselves or each other.

 

So we go to play What is Hip? and it's so bad that the drummer actually stops the band in the middle of the song and starts berating the horns. Then we continue and the bass player gets lost in the same place he did the gig before, the turnaround right before the organ solo.

 

I'm still ducking calls from the BL.

I will say, though...if a gig is going to be bad, I'd prefer it to be epically so. It's the routine "everyone's making sounds but no one's making music" ones that eat your soul. The train wrecks with eternal anecdote material? Almost better than the joyrides. 

[Adan]

18 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Perfect resolution of both "tired of . . ." threads, not to mention the three words everyone wants to hear: "cash tax free." Nice work if you can get it.

[Tusker]

On 8/15/2022 at 4:18 PM, EricBarker said:

 

Agree 100%. The fact is, keyboards and keyboardists are different animals from other musicians. Since the beginning we've been called on to fill in for other instruments/sections. 

 

Agree 100% also. Here is an illustration ...

 

 

The keyboard arises out of the utilization of levers, pistons and hammers to mirror the actions of any currently available blown, plucked, bowed or struck instruments. It begins in antiquity, develops steam (ha ha) in the Middle Ages and flourishes in the Industrial Age. The point of the mechanical technology is to do with one player what it would previously take several players to do, first by expanding polyphony and later by expanding polytimbrality. We've always been a replacement/utility player, whether we were replacing a string orchestra in a cathedral with a pipe organ, or replacing a brass section in a club with a sampled synth or an analog synth or a B3.

[ProfD]

I'm impressed that this thread has generated a lively and relatively civilized discussion from both sides of the KB playing spectrum.

 

Musicians have been using KBs especially synths, samplers and ROMplers to cover *auxiliary parts* for a long time now. 

 

Some KB *players* are auxiliary musicians and not necessarily a pianist or organist.  Then, there is the middle.  

 

I blame KB technology for making KB players the jack-of-all-sounds in the eyes of fellow musicians.🤣

 

It started when they thought the DX7 was going to put the orchestra out of business.😁😎

[DaveMcM]

38 minutes ago, ProfD said:

It started when they thought the DX7 was going to put the orchestra out of business.😁😎

Actually I think that would be the Mellotron. Then again, the music store I worked for years ago sold a Mellotron to the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra so go figure.

[Bosendorphen]

I have NO problem playing the occasional horn parts. We only have a handful of tunes that require them (including some originals). I enjoy the challenge although I play mostly piano parts over the course of a gig, along with some synth and organ parts. 

 

Our electric viola player plays horn parts as well and through his effects can pull off some convincing emulations (to my surprise when he first joined). When we play together it comes off quite well and the crowds love it.

 

I've always enjoyed the challenge to playing other instrument sounds in the past 46 years I've been gigging. Back in the late 70s I'd emulated the string lines to "Nights In White Satin" on a MiniKorg!! It's all I had at the time synth-wise and it did a reasonable flute sound as well. I even played the sax parts to "Year of the Cat" with it. Perhaps laughable by today's standards, but as a teen with my only synth I did enjoy the challenge.

[JovanyPetty]

I've been in similar situations before, where the band wanted to tackle songs that stretched my abilities. It can be tough to find the balance between pushing yourself and feeling overwhelmed.

[HammondDave]

Just say “no… you want horns, hire a horn section”

[BluMunk]

One of the most fun 'scripted' solos I've ever learned is the short horn interlude in I Want A New Drug. What a blast. And, sounded great (enough for me) on my 90s rompler! 

[Stokely]

Not tired at all, I simply don't play them (mostly...there are a few stabby parts that I--sometimes--feel compelled to play....Brick House etc).  Some nights i say screw it and everything from Superstition to Brandy gets an organ instead.  Sue me, bill me, send your mob with pitch forks.   As far as I know, nobody has yet complained at my heretical ways after hundreds of gigs.  I did see one dude wearing a keyboard tie shaking his head and grumbling at something back in ought-nine during Play that Funky Music, he walked out soon after--probably due to me not playing horns.  I can live with that!

The only good keyboard horn part is a dead keyboard horn part synth or organ part waiting to be born!  

(And yes I can appreciate the skill and effort that some employ to play somewhat-realistic horns!)

[Baldwin Funster]

If I'm gonna get paid to sit back and do nothing but Buhna Buhna Bohm on rescue me, cool.

[HammondDave]

54 minutes ago, Stokely said:

Not tired at all, I simply don't play them (mostly...there are a few stabby parts that I--sometimes--feel compelled to play....Brick House etc).  Some nights i say screw it and everything from Superstition to Brandy gets an organ instead.  Sue me, bill me, send your mob with pitch forks.   As far as I know, nobody has yet complained at my heretical ways after hundreds of gigs.  I did see one dude wearing a keyboard tie shaking his head and grumbling at something back in ought-nine during Play that Funky Music, he walked out soon after--probably due to me not playing horns.  I can live with that!

The only good keyboard horn part is a dead keyboard horn part synth or organ part waiting to be born!  

(And yes I can appreciate the skill and effort that some employ to play somewhat-realistic horns!)

We should be paid by the number of musicians that we replace.  

[Montunoman 2]

2 hours ago, HammondDave said:

Just say “no… you want horns, hire a horn section”

Or use backing tracks.

[cphollis]

As keys player, band leader and music director, I get to decide how sampled horn and reed sounds are used across songs.

 

Mostly, it's for accent lines on a handful of tunes, as it adds some nice flavor, e.g. Superstition, Power of Love, and similar.  I can take a short solo and it won't entirely suck, either. 

 

If a song demands a nuanced signature horn part, it's not gonna make the setlist, 'cause we don't have a real horn section.  Ditto for fiddle, pedal steel, etc.

[Outkaster]

Playing horn parts is easy., 

[Stokely]

1 hour ago, Montunoman 2 said:

Or use backing tracks.

Ok, you found something worse than horns (for me at least)    Still better than getting bit in the nuts by a pit bull, so there's that.

[HammondDave]

1 hour ago, Stokely said:

Ok, you found something worse than horns (for me at least)    Still better than getting bit in the nuts by a pit bull, so there's that.

I have to take your word on that…

[Dave Weiser]

I completely agree with the OP - I'm not a fan of keyboard horns. I understand that some working players have no choice, and have to go with the best sounds they can find. But I always prefer and always recommend using a keyboard sound that fills up the same sonic space, like B3 or synth brass ala Morris Day and the Time.

 

I used to have to make brass patches back when I worked for Kurzweil. I always tried my best, though the work wasn't nearly as satisfying as working on sounds like Rhodes or Clav, where I could get very close to the original. No amount of hours would get me close to the real thing.

 

In my work for theater shows, we often have to create brass patches, but we're using them to augment a band with real brass players. This very different from relying solely on keys. Also, we have the luxury of being able to do sample sessions that are specific for a given show, so we can record articulations and chord hits for specific songs. In general I'm happiest working on shows that have the biggest orchestras, like 30 or 40 players, which is quite rare these days. (Phantom Broadway had 30 players in the pit, and Sunset Blvd had 44 players on stage, which was a total blast.)

[nursers]

30 minutes ago, Dave Weiser said:

In general I'm happiest working on shows that have the biggest orchestras, like 30 or 40 players, which is quite rare these days. (Phantom Broadway had 30 players in the pit, and Sunset Blvd had 44 players on stage, which was a total blast.)

 

So so true - I've only had the privilege once of playing in a large orchestra (43 people) for a production of JC Superstar. As the synth player there's a section of 'I Don't Know How To Love Him' where the whole orchestra aside from me was playing in full flight. One of the most potent memories of my musical life sitting in the middle of that and watching the full power of an orchestra.

[HammondDave]

35 minutes ago, Dave Weiser said:

I completely agree with the OP - I'm not a fan of keyboard horns. I understand that some working players have no choice, and have to go with the best sounds they can find. But I always prefer and always recommend using a keyboard sound that fills up the same sonic space, like B3 or synth brass ala Morris Day and the Time.

 

I used to have to make brass patches back when I worked for Kurzweil. I always tried my best, though the work wasn't nearly as satisfying as working on sounds like Rhodes or Clav, where I could get very close to the original. No amount of hours would get me close to the real thing.

 

In my work for theater shows, we often have to create brass patches, but we're using them to augment a band with real brass players. This very different from relying solely on keys. Also, we have the luxury of being able to do sample sessions that are specific for a given show, so we can record articulations and chord hits for specific songs. In general I'm happiest working on shows that have the biggest orchestras, like 30 or 40 players, which is quite rare these days. (Phantom Broadway had 30 players in the pit, and Sunset Blvd had 44 players on stage, which was a total blast.)

 

3 minutes ago, nursers said:

 

So so true - I've only had the privilege once of playing in a large orchestra (43 people) for a production of JC Superstar. As the synth player there's a section of 'I Don't Know How To Love Him' where the whole orchestra aside from me was playing in full flight. One of the most potent memories of my musical life sitting in the middle of that and watching the full power of an orchestra.

Now THIS is awesome!  I am a prof theatre lighting designer and know exactly what you mean. 

[Baldwin Funster]

Check out GSI MiniOrchestra.  It's not your dad's horn section. No it isn't going to fool a critical listener but it doesn't scream out CHEESE like the synth horn sounds of old. For stuff like dancing in the streets (vandelas not bowie or vanhalen) it fits nicely.

[Delaware Dave]

Just bring a nord electro2 to practice and gigs.  B3, cp70, ep, clav.  Thats it, no horns, no strings, nothing else.  Then see how the equation gets solved.

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

Just bring a nord electro2 to practice and gigs.  B3, cp70, ep, clav.  Thats it, no horns, no strings, nothing else.  Then see how the equation gets solved.

As long as you're okay with their solving it by hiring someone else for the next gig. 😉 

[counterpoint]

Make the guitarist cover the horn parts...

 

 

[stoken6]

56 minutes ago, counterpoint said:

Make the guitarist cover the horn parts...

Cool performance.

 

Cheers, Mike

[obxa]

2 hours ago, counterpoint said:

Make the guitarist cover the horn parts...

If I could amend this, have guitarist cover the Sax parts.  Just did some legacy shows with Coasters-Drifters.  Few of the hit & run gigs they didn't have the sax player.  Had told their traveling MD before I refused to play (wretched) keyboard sax on stuff that is iconic to the band because promoter/agent were too cheap to hire real deal.  Guitar player played signature hooks, &  I occasionally doubled the lines on piano.  Actually worked out kinda cool.- and updated the songs a bit. 

 

In the eat your own words dept:  Motown Revue this summer as second keys. Nice venues & pay. Plus great charts..  MD on those is Sax player and light piano.  Usual vibes-strings-misc,  but will have to do some brass.  At least with real sax on top,  it's tolerable.   Covering all with YC and Nord Stage, and going to experiment replacing Mainstage with dedicated Ipad and "Heavy Brass" .   Besides Korg Module or M1 app, about the only thing I saw for pop brass. Will have to gig test.

 

Sampled my own and searched,  but never been happy with any Nord's dynamic brass swell patches.  Which is all I need from an external source.  Normally layer Kontact session horns...but would love to leave laptop home just for that sound and occasional layering.  Miss old Motiff patches that did that.  Don't have one around to sample.  Going to try GSI Baldwinfunster mentioned too.   Any other Ipad or Nord horns worth checking out?

[Stokely]

We basically do have our guitarist play any sax parts.  Not that there are many...solo on You may be right, the sax on Turn the Page (so, essentially the Metallica version).  If we go back to doing Cool Change I intend to use a soft moog-ish sound or some other synth sound and covering that solo.  I'm not big on doing solos, some nights I have one or two (Call me the Breeze, maybe one on Tush if we do that).

If I was making a living doing music I'd do what needed to be done....including playing with tracks, which I find gross.  But I don't, and am lucky enough to be in a band that aren't sticklers for trying to do the songs like the album.  If I feel like playing organ on Superstition, nobody minds.   Granted I don't go too nuts and play vox organ on Loverboy tunes or something.  12 years in, as far as I know it hasn't hurt us.   Not using tracks may have, we can't play certain venues, but that's a whole nother conversation.

[Iconoclast]

Re: Superstition. That song actually sounds great with guitars doing the horns.  I saw a killer band in a Nashville bar do it that way. 

 

Went home and tried to teach it to my local guitar players and they went into open revolt.

[Dave Bryce]

On 5/18/2024 at 10:02 AM, Iconoclast said:

Re: Superstition. That song actually sounds great with guitars doing the horns. 

 

Yeah, but…I love doing the horn parts with my right hand and the basic clav part with my left!  We medley it with Play That Funky Music, so the keyboard split makes even more sense.

 

dB