Tired of Playing Horn Parts?

[HammondDave]

I had a talk with them… everything is cool now.  

[Tom Williams]

21 hours ago, Alkeys said:

If you are a keyboard player that plays non-keyboard instrument parts on your instrument and has agreed to do so, you're part of the problem

That is an insulting characterization of those of us who have studied instrumentation and arrangement literally since childhood, learned orchestration and scoring in college, understand how instruments other than piano are articulated, and who know how to use those other 998 voices in our ROMplers.   My major instrument was horn, and I have played most other brasses with reasonable competency in public performance situations.

 

I live in a rural town of 3000, unlikely to support a 7+ piece horn band, but where they still appreciate CTA tunes.  And I'm pretty proud of my ability to provide that in a live setting.

[Alkeys]

Horn players are awesome and badass 100% and I respect them 100% also keyboard players like Greg Phillingaines and David Foster for example who can orchestrate and write horn parts or any part of the orchestra- that's an awesome talent and not knocking it. And keyboard players like for example Wally Minko are super into horns and arranging but I never seen cats like that or someone like George Duke or Herbie Hancock playing horn rompler sounds when they would just rather have an actual horn player play those parts.

 

It's as disrespectful as asking the drummer to play flute parts and see how he reacts. Same thing LOL.  Why should it be okay for keyboard players to be expected to play horn parts but a drummer gets a pass for not wanting to play flute parts? LOL!  I think I'm going to ask my drummer to play flute parts and see his reaction and have a good laugh over it.

 

This was a hot button for me because I just can't stand horn parts played by anything other than a horn. LOL But all in all, just trying to defend my brother keyboard players!  Hate seeing other band members with unreasonable expectations of us keys players. 

[stoken6]

52 minutes ago, Alkeys said:

Hate seeing other band members with unreasonable expectations of us keys players. 

This is the crux of it for me.

 

I have no problem in principle with one instrument taking a line originally intended for other instruments. (And that cuts both ways - in one band I work with I play a guitar part in Hotel California, while elsewhere guitar takes on additional keyboard parts in Superstition). 

 

Secondly is "does it sound good"? And yes cheez can end up liberally sprinkled over the music. Equally I've had musos comment on how good the sampled horns in my Nord sound...

 

Thirdly is "how reasonable is the request"? I'm working up "Sorry" by Justin Bieber for a wedding gig (don't @ me, I'm only the piano player). You basically need three keyboard players,  a drum loop, and a dude with a MPC for that track. So I'm having to pick and choose and compromise. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

[Music Bird]

I’m used enough to synthesizer horns, but the ones on my MX49 are really cheesy, and my band plays Uptown Funk and Rude which I have basically a really cheesy brass patch set up. It doesn’t sound right for doing covers of stuff like Mustang Sally though or Sgt Peppers, I may need to use a better horn patch. I prefer Roland and Korg horns (I have VSTs by them).

[Reezekeys]

9 hours ago, Alkeys said:

It's as disrespectful as asking the drummer to play flute parts and see how he reacts. Same thing LOL

 

Nice try – that's the best analogy you can come up with?

[MathOfInsects]

On 8/13/2022 at 9:56 PM, Alkeys said:

The closest thing I've ever played to a part that is not a keyboard instrument is a string section and that has been as Mellotron strings (which technically is a keyboard instrument so that counts).  As a keyboard player you should only play keyboard sounds from keyboard instruments and that's it

That's where this argument gets shaky. Playing a sample or a model of an instrument that played samples, is not different from someone playing a sample or a model of anything else. The Mellotron involved pressing keys to make the sounds of strings, which are not keys. If that's fair game, so is any other legacy "patch" that was used "then" but is modeled or sampled now.

About the only way this argument holds up is if you only played sounds that would have naturally come from either electro-mechanical or purely electric instruments. Otherwise how dare you use a circuit and speakers to produce sound that is supposed to come from soundboards and pipes? Etc. It's a funny diatribe, but shaky logic. Once you're using the pressing of a key to trigger a sample or model instead of vibrate a string or tine, you're already simply using the interface of a keyboard to produce arbitrary (if sometimes related) sounds.

[D. Gauss]

9 hours ago, Alkeys said:

 

 

It's as disrespectful as asking the drummer to play flute parts and see how he reacts.  

this guy didn't seem to mind  

 

[Adam Burgess]

10 hours ago, Alkeys said:

It's as disrespectful as asking the drummer to play flute parts and see how he reacts. Same thing LOL.  Why should it be okay for keyboard players to be expected to play horn parts but a drummer gets a pass for not wanting to play flute parts? LOL!

I was on an orchestral 'pops' gig a year or so ago as part of the 5 piece rhythm section/band. The orchestra arrived from overseas and the conductor/arranger was expecting a harpist. No harpist, so I was asked to cover those parts when possible.

I'm not going to say no to the conductor in front of 50 musicians on stage and a few thousand paying customers imminently arriving. 

I've done the same years ago, when a pit orchestra for a musical needed a few bars oboe solo, and the reed player didn't play oboe. She already had 2 clarinets, flute, and a few saxes. Do I mind covering ANY parts if the boss who's paying me asks me to? Not at all. 

A band/orchestra is a team. And, yes, sometimes the horn section HATE singing or shouting BVs, or the singer CAN'T actually play the tambourine, so you give it to the tuba player who isn't too busy… 

 

[Outkaster]

11 hours ago, Alkeys said:

Horn players are awesome and badass 100% and I respect them 100% also keyboard players like Greg Phillingaines and David Foster for example who can orchestrate and write horn parts or any part of the orchestra- that's an awesome talent and not knocking it. And keyboard players like for example Wally Minko are super into horns and arranging but I never seen cats like that or someone like George Duke or Herbie Hancock playing horn rompler sounds when they would just rather have an actual horn player play those parts.

 

It's as disrespectful as asking the drummer to play flute parts and see how he reacts. Same thing LOL.  Why should it be okay for keyboard players to be expected to play horn parts but a drummer gets a pass for not wanting to play flute parts? LOL!  I think I'm going to ask my drummer to play flute parts and see his reaction and have a good laugh over it.

 

This was a hot button for me because I just can't stand horn parts played by anything other than a horn. LOL But all in all, just trying to defend my brother keyboard players!  Hate seeing other band members with unreasonable expectations of us keys players. 

Well don't get into Caribbean music then.  I play with a horn section all the time in one band and it's a lot of money to keep them on a payroll.  It's not disrespectful.  No one forces me. I just do it.

[Shamanzarek]

Justin Hayward had his drummer Gordon Marshall learn to play flute for a tour in 1998. Of course the pay is probably better than what most of us get.

 

[MathOfInsects]

I also can't imagine anyone ever working in any real way, if their attitude is, "I will only make the sounds originally associated with this exact instrument at a single arbitrary moment in history, whose significance is known only to me." Drummers play marimba and vibes and spin clicktracks and samples; plenty of violinists are running through effects pedals and loopers; guitarists routinely use synth pedals and the like; every idle hand is game for shaking some percussion at any given time, etc. They day I show up to a gig and say, "I will bless you with my presence, but here are the three sounds I shall grace you with, for all others are not pure," is the day I've played my last job for anyone in town (or anywhere).

[AnotherScott]

On 8/9/2022 at 6:14 PM, HammondDave said:

there is no horn “Patch” that comes near the qualify of even a three piece horn section. 

Depends on the quality of the three piece horn section. ;-)

 

On 8/10/2022 at 11:29 AM, allan_evett said:

I don't mind doing a signature brass part, when needed, but it's got to be one that an audience would expect - such as the iconic statement in 'Sweet Caroline' 

When my band does Sweet Caroline, we come to a dead stop on those iconic horn parts, and let the audience sing it. Works every time.

 

[EricBarker]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

I also can't imagine anyone ever working in any real way, if their attitude is, "I will only make the sounds originally associated with this exact instrument at a single arbitrary moment in history, whose significance is known only to me." Drummers play marimba and vibes and spin clicktracks and samples; plenty of violinists are running through effects pedals and loopers; guitarists routinely use synth pedals and the like; every idle hand is game for shaking some percussion at any given time, etc. They day I show up to a gig and say, "I will bless you with my presence, but here are the three sounds I shall grace you with, for all others are not pure," is the day I've played my last job for anyone in town (or anywhere).

 

Agree 100%. The fact is, keyboards and keyboardists are different animals from other musicians. Since the beginning we've been called on to fill in for other instruments/sections. In musical theatre, it's not uncommon for the pianist/keyboardist to be the musical director and to cover many of the early rehearsals alone, then hire a full pit for a dress and shows. We do this because WE CAN. The piano is the most versatile, multi-use instrument ever created. Whole symphonies and suites can be reproduced note-for-note in a piano arrangement. Think about "Picture's at an Exhibition", the Ravel orchestration is fantastic and full, but the original piano version covers all the same notes (more actually, Ravel simplified a few passages). Having a full horn/string section at your disposal is great, but sometimes it's more financially and logistically viable to have a single keyboard player fill the same role. This isn't new, it's hundreds of years old. The organ owes a lot of its development and popularity to its ability to replace church ensembles. There's a reason organ stops are named after acoustic instruments. We've been hacking ensemble parts for almost half a millennia! One could say it's one of a keyboardists primary functions. I hate to break it to you, but that's just the deep nature of the instrument and the role.

Guitar, Bass, Drums, and Vocals can handle 95% of all rock/pop songs out there and make a crowd pay money to see them. Keyboardists have to admit that we're auxiliary players, there to do double-duty on whatever is missing from the particular song, since we really can do anything. That's the primary function of a keyboard player. That's what we're good at, it's what makes keyboardists the greatest musicians in the world! Saying "I won't play X part", is stepping on the very foundation of 500+ years of keyboard history. And it's a good way of making sure you don't get re-hired. If you've been hired to play keys in any cover band, be proud that you can do the job of 4 (horny) men. Seriously, you can play a whole orchestra, how rad is that?! We used to do "Don't Wanna Miss a Thing", and when I had the whole orchestral part screwed on, I felt like the king of the world!

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

On 8/9/2022 at 3:14 PM, HammondDave said:

there is no horn “Patch” that comes near the qualify of even a three piece horn section. 

Depends on the quality of the three piece horn section. 😉

 

Exactly. Not to mention that in many cases real horns are miked and being heard through PA speakers, not acoustically. That levels the playing field somewhat, when you're talking "real vs sampled" imo.

 

I think we can agree that a $600 rompler's "horn patch" may not cut it for simulating an expressive section when you need lines with swells, doits, scoops, etc. But the good VSTs out there can do that, and layered appropriately and in the hands of a player that knows how to apply real-time controls on their keyboard to achieve those sounds, can do the job pretty well.

 

Of course there are and will always be bandleaders with unreasonable expectations of what keyboard players are capable of doing. Certain songs or genres demand as good a recreation as can be done, and I would feel exactly as HammondDave did at the top of this thread were I asked to pull those kinds of songs off, knowing that it would sound like shit - even if it sounded that way only to me! However, the fact remains that we've been simulating instruments other than keyboards for decades. Whether or not that's a good thing, or comes off well, is a pretty subjective matter that depends on many factors: the particular song and how prominent the "simulation" needs to be, the quality of the sound source, and, once again, the person behind the keyboard. There's a wide range of possibilities there! 🙂 

[HSS]

I gigged with a with a band leader/ singer/ harp player for a few years who used to play the Wedding March horn intro to Rufus Thomas' "Walking the Dog" on a Kazoo.  The audiences usually loved it, along with his outrageous attire.  It just goes to show you that cheese can work if used sparingly for the right songs in the right spots.  Franks Zappa was the master at precise and deadly application of cheese.   

 

Sorry for wandering OT.  I'm becoming more unfocused in my dotage, 

[Still VanDerGraaf]

23 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Exactly. Not to mention that in many cases real horns are miked and being heard through PA speakers, not acoustically. That levels the playing field somewhat, when you're talking "real vs sampled" imo.

 

 

Going slightly OT from the "do we love playing horn parts or not subject, this is a point that escapes people.

 

On my live horn patches I would always add mic simulation as an insert effect. For me it always got me closer to a more workable result.

 

12 minutes ago, HSS said:

I gigged with a with a band leader/ singer/ harp player for a few years who used to play the Wedding March horn intro to Rufus Thomas' "Walking the Dog" on a Kazoo.  The audiences usually loved it, along with his outrageous attire.  It just goes to show you that cheese can work if used sparingly for the right songs in the right spots.  Franks Zappa was the master at precise and deadly application of cheese.   

Remimds me of one time out of hundreds that my old band did  "The Final Countdown"- and I didn't have to play (admittedly synth) brass.

Kazoos for all on stage, and the legendary lick took on a highly amusing direction.

[obxa]

 

It’s ok to admit we’re all different,  and no right or wrong here. 

 

Like most things, it boils down to communication before  you accept or decline any gig.  You always need to know what the gig entails, what’s required, and what’s negotiable.  

 Once you’ve committed,  I firmly believe in “do what you said you do” and always strive to bring more to the table. 

 

If you ask first- you always know up front what’s expected,  and whether you’re willing to do it or not.  If you don’t want to do horns, then state that up front.  If that’s a deal-breaker,  so be it.   There will be other gigs, or someone else will be a better fit.   Or there might be some middle ground on how much horns.   I don’t think that’s being a Diva at all.  

 

 

 

[D. Gauss]

I would think the best answer to the band leader's horn question, "can you do the horn parts on this song," 

is:

"sure no problem, but whose gonna play the keyboard parts?"

[Synthaholic]

I always loved playing horn parts. And string parts. And all parts other than piano/organ parts that were expected of me. I consider myself a keyboardist, not a pianist or organist or synthesist. Playing parts was what kept the night interesting.

[erik_nie]

2 hours ago, Synthaholic said:

I always loved playing horn parts. And string parts. And all parts other than piano/organ parts that were expected of me. I consider myself a keyboardist, not a pianist or organist or synthesist. Playing parts was what kept the night interesting.

 

Fully agree, everything on a keyboard is a compromise. Even the piano's and e-piano's are sampled.
I could get a decent job in a Piano/hammond band, but hate to use only 2 sounds all night.
My fun is to recreate the original, using effects, samples of notes/phrases. This could be any sound.
Because we play 60 songs a night I do not have 100% accurate brass sounds for every song, but only a few presets. That gets me through the night.

 

My brass sound:
I use my Nord Wave 2 with a mix of Nord samples, a synth brass sound from the analog synth, a Motif brass sound that I found on the nord sound forum. Some sounds moved an octave and different balance will get several flavors. With some ping-pong delay and reverb.

Still searching for a better sample-sets of generic (pop) brass sounds.

I also play a sampled bouzouki (?), wazoo, strings, accordion, flute, EDM-wavs, and wooshes and drones. Even 2nd guitar riffs.
I don't mind. It is also often a matter of your playing style, volume, effects to get it realistic in the mix. 

YMMV 

[Threadslayer]

15 hours ago, Still VanDerGraaf said:

 

Kazoos for all on stage, and the legendary lick took on a highly amusing direction.

Which reminds me, I used to play the sax solo on Brown Sugar on kazoo and it actually sounded pretty good.

[Morrissey]

7 hours ago, erik_nie said:

My fun is to recreate the original, using effects, samples of notes/phrases. This could be any sound.

 

There have been some some strong opinions in this thread.  Erick's post quoted here is a good reminder of the virtue of the diversity of our forum members.  His fun is quite the opposite of my fun but I 100% respect his fun, and the forum is better for having a population of keyboard players with different skills and interests.

[mate stubb]

19 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Depends on the quality of the three piece horn section. 😉

 

 

OMG, this just reminded me of a horrible gig I had. Drummer is the BL, and I got called to fill in a couple times. He had a 3 piece horn section that was the absolute pits. They sounded like they had never rehearsed together, never learned the song, couldn't read charts, and couldn't play their instruments in tune - with themselves or each other.

 

So we go to play What is Hip? and it's so bad that the drummer actually stops the band in the middle of the song and starts berating the horns. Then we continue and the bass player gets lost in the same place he did the gig before, the turnaround right before the organ solo.

 

I'm still ducking calls from the BL.

[KuruPrionz]

7 minutes ago, mate stubb said:

 

OMG, this just reminded me of a horrible gig I had. Drummer is the BL, and I got called to fill in a couple times. He had a 3 piece horn section that was the absolute pits. They sounded like they had never rehearsed together, never learned the song, couldn't read charts, and couldn't play their instruments in tune - with themselves or each other.

 

So we go to play What is Hip? and it's so bad that the drummer actually stops the band in the middle of the song and starts berating the horns. Then we continue and the bass player gets lost in the same place he did the gig before, the turnaround right before the organ solo.

 

I'm still ducking calls from the BL.

Yikes, somebody who doesn't hire well has no business being BL and/or running down others (that they hired) down because they suck. On stage is even worse, beyond the point of no return. 

 

I wouldn't duck him though, I'd tell him straight out that I was not available and would not be available. Otherwise he may not go away. Clueless is as clueless does...

[HammondDave]

41 minutes ago, mate stubb said:

 

OMG, this just reminded me of a horrible gig I had. Drummer is the BL, and I got called to fill in a couple times. He had a 3 piece horn section that was the absolute pits. They sounded like they had never rehearsed together, never learned the song, couldn't read charts, and couldn't play their instruments in tune - with themselves or each other.

 

So we go to play What is Hip? and it's so bad that the drummer actually stops the band in the middle of the song and starts berating the horns. Then we continue and the bass player gets lost in the same place he did the gig before, the turnaround right before the organ solo.

 

I'm still ducking calls from the BL.

How do bands like this get hired?

[AnotherScott]

14 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

How do bands like this get hired?

That reminds me of the story of how Jethro Tull got their name. They kinda sucked, so they would keep changing their name to get hired. The first time they did a gig where they actually got asked back, it was a gig where their name for the night happened to be Jethro Tull, so then that became their name.

[The Real MC]

1 hour ago, mate stubb said:

OMG, this just reminded me of a horrible gig I had. Drummer is the BL, and I got called to fill in a couple times. He had a 3 piece horn section that was the absolute pits. They sounded like they had never rehearsed together, never learned the song, couldn't read charts, and couldn't play their instruments in tune - with themselves or each other.

 

So we go to play What is Hip? and it's so bad

 

If there is ever a "suck test" for a funk/soul brass/reed section, ToP "What Is Hip" is it.

[KuruPrionz]

32 minutes ago, The Real MC said:

 

If there is ever a "suck test" for a funk/soul brass/reed section, ToP "What Is Hip" is it.

Yep, saw them twice - doesn't get any better!

[obxa]

I think "clueless band leaders' needs be another thread?

At the intersection of integrity and money, I've worked for way more than a few. 

 

Always seems to be a correlation between those that are weak musician themselves,   who surround themselves with great players , who treat said players like crap....But  they are usually really great on the business-client side  - and that's why they stay busy.