and yet another stand thread ...Hercules KS210B

[Branwell]

Anyone tried this stand? Seems to be relatively inexpensive, has quick setup, travels flat & cosmetically it almost doesn't look like an X Stand. The manufacturer explains the limited height width options well enough on their website, so if that's OK is there anything not to like? 

 

Hercules Stands - KS210B        http://herculesstands.com/international/products/keyboard/x-stands/ks210b/

[eric]

Looks halfway decent for an X-stand form factor...the second tier support design looks like it could be more sturdy than typical X-stand since the supports go from the bottom of the stand. So long as the second tier has some good flexibility on height adjustment, which it appears to have based on the description, it could be a good option.

[Delaware Dave]

From the description I thought it was a speaker system built into the stand....

[MathOfInsects]

Almost 8" minimum depth between first and second tiers would be a non-starter for me, and the fact that the second tier is only adjustable based on the width of the first means that you don't control that distance--how high you are setting your main board, does. So on a sitting gig, you'll have almost 12" between the boards. If you want the 8" instead, you'll have to stand.

 

Also, there is no horizontal bracing, so in essence this just a standard single-braced X stand with twice the weight on it and no adjustable second tier.

I would consider it a hard pass, at least for me.

[kaptainkeys]

Interesting concept, but not really something that appeals to me as the tiers are so far apart.  I'd rather have a tabletop or z stand.

[Iconoclast]

If that 2d tier isn't adjustable that just wouldn't work.

Do any of these guys actually play keys?  All we need:
Solid structure with no rocking while playing.
A fully adjustable in 3 dimensions second tier that is capable of being very close to the 1st tier

Quickly and easily folds flat or disassembles/assembles

After that, then we can worry about adding shelves, accessories, mic stands. But if it doesn't do the first couple things, we don't care.

 

[timwat]

On 3/7/2022 at 8:22 AM, MathOfInsects said:

Almost 8" minimum depth between first and second tiers would be a non-starter for me, and the fact that the second tier is only adjustable based on the width of the first means that you don't control that distance--how high you are setting your main board, does. So on a sitting gig, you'll have almost 12" between the boards. If you want the 8" instead, you'll have to stand.

 

 

Wait...I didn't interpret the description from the website in quite that way: 

 

"The 2nd tier adjusts simultaneously while the base height is set and is slightly tilted; height is adjustable from 198 mm (7.8") to 300 mm (11.8") in 25.4 mm (1") increments."

 

I thought that meant that first, you adjust the height of the ironing board, and then you can telescope the height of the 2nd tier in 1" increments (from 11.8" down to 7.8"). So that minimum height between tiers would be 7.8"...or did I read that incorrectly?

 

Tim

[EscapeRocks]

The 2nd tiers are height adjustable  Simple Google search:

 

 

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

3 hours ago, timwat said:

 

Wait...I didn't interpret the description from the website in quite that way: 

 

"The 2nd tier adjusts simultaneously while the base height is set and is slightly tilted; height is adjustable from 198 mm (7.8") to 300 mm (11.8") in 25.4 mm (1") increments."

 

I thought that meant that first, you adjust the height of the ironing board, and then you can telescope the height of the 2nd tier in 1" increments (from 11.8" down to 7.8"). So that minimum height between tiers would be 7.8"...or did I read that incorrectly?

 

Tim

Given David's post, I "stand" corrected. 

[DJkeys]

Seems like it might work pretty well, as long as you could drill additional holes to lower the top tier further.  $120 US seems like a bargain price these days-

 

-dj

[MathOfInsects]

With the top tier adjustable in height, and presuming  you can indeed drill more heights into it...I am not a complete pass on this one. BUT...there is still the issue that it's just a single-braced X-stand, and the additional potential problem that there is no way to move the top tier backward to leave more of the lower keyboard exposed, if you have the tiers close together. I supposed you can always hack off part of the top tube, but you'd better get it right...! Also, something I notice: because of the downpoles holding the top tier, there is "less" stand in front of the crossbars--the X--than behind it. If you sit, X-stands already create the issue of not enough room for knees. This one would seem to heighten that problem. Finally, I would be concerned for standing gigs that the smaller footprint would make the whole thing too side-to-side unstable with two boards on it (or even one).

There aren't many reviews online. Who will be the first of us to take this $129 road test?

[LarsHarner2]

10 hours ago, DJKeys said:

Seems like it might work pretty well, as long as you could drill additional holes to lower the top tier further.  $120 US seems like a bargain price these days-

 

-dj

I would agree, a Onstage double brace X stand I am thinking of getting another of is now double cost

[CEB]

Not a fan of ironing boards but all the other Hercules doo-dads I own have been relatively heavy duty and robustly engineered.   i don't like X stands but Many people use them. 

[nursers]

Sorely tempted on this one and thanks for pointing it out. 

[Konnector]

I'm not a fan of those single pin locking mechanisms they put on most X-stands these days. 

 

I have an older, heavy duty double braced X-stand I use at home that has this style of locking mechanism: 

More adjustable, much stronger and no slop or wobble. 

 

 

[drawback]

I had one of those gear-mesh mechanisms snap in two once. I like X-s but the best I found was Ultimate Support with the pin.

 

Best overall, stable and versatile stand for me has been the Hercules Z.

 

Edit to add that the upper tiers on tube fabricated stands bug me in that there's no way to move the boards closer together. Maybe if the keyboard rests were made from a rectangular shape that would at least allow a fraction of an inch distance, rather than +1 inch with a tube. Then of course it will depend on how far back the upper keyboard will extend, enough for the controls of the lower keyboard to be accessible. The solution, as you're probably sick of me saying, is the Z-stand/cantilever approach where you don't need an upper tier at all.  

[Branwell]

So I bought a KS210B. For context I already have X stands (single and double braced), tables stands, Z stands, V stands, a bespoke home-made job for a specific rig, and the unique Quik Lok Monolith, so this ain't my first Rodeo with stands. What I didn't have was a  two-tier option that was wobble free, super quick and easy to set up/tear down, travels "flat" with minimal footprint, and provided a second tier that was narrow enough to hold a Sequential Take 5 (44 keys), at least when playing standing. The Hercules KS210B, as AudioPilz (YouTube channel) would say, "at first glance was ticking all the boxes".  The price compared to alternatives made this a somewhat low risk decision for purchasing on-line and unseen in the real world, so how did it stack up (...boom-tish)?

• Wobble free? - This is a super rigid stand. The upper tier has a little bit of free play unloaded, but with the weight of a board on top (even a light-weight controller), the vertical rectangular tubing construction locks in on itself and there is very very little side to side or back to front movement. Although those vertical tubes holding the 2nd tier are not bearing weight on the base, they are still probably helping a bit with the overall rigidity. The Hercules adjustable rubber foot thing should make dealing with uneven floors a bit easier. One of the best 2-tier experiences I have had in terms of lack of wobble.
• Super quick and easy to set up/tear down? - Absolutely. This is a huge positive for this stand. Check out the video posted above by EscapeRocks.
• Travels "flat" with minimal footprint? – Pretty much the same as any X-stand, just a little bit longer due to the integrated 2nd tier. I don’t think there is anything better with a 2nd tier attached?
• Narrow upper tier width. – The upper tier width is dependant on the base height. At the second highest base height it’s perfect for the 44 key Take 5. This setting also happens to put the lower keyboard at about the same height as the upper manual of a Hammond C3 which is my go-to standard for playing standing up.  The second highest base setting on the manufacturer spec has a width of 550 mm (21.7”) which seems to be to the outer edge of the lower tier rubber end caps.  It measures about 540 mm on the upper tier which has slightly smaller diameter tubing.  The centre-to-centre distance of the upper and lower tier tubes is about 520 mm. It becomes too wide for the narrow Take 5 at lower settings, but I’m not planning on using those. As long as you don’t like to sit, dance or balance sea lions on the extreme ends of your lower board, the stand is wide enough at this setting to be stable for common gig duties (comparable to any typical X-stand). For my needs this second highest base setting is the Goldilocks zone for playing while standing.

What else?

• Yes, I will probably drill a couple of extra holes to allow the upper tier to get lower.  The Hercules spec gives a lowest upper tier height of 200 mm (7.9”).  This seems to be at the underside of the endcap at the player end (add another 25.6 mm for pipe diameter +about 6 mm for the end cap to get an idea of the height where the keyboard actually rests).
• The slight upper tier angle is fixed, but it looks just right for me.
• The Hercules load capacity spec is 80 kg (176.4 lb) for the lower tier and 40 kg (88 lb) for the upper tier. I am mainly planning on using a relatively light weight controller on the lower tier (Roland A-800Pro), but I loaded on my 16.94 kg (37.35 lb) Kurzweil PC 3 with the 7.7 kg (17 lb) Take 5 on top and everything felt very solid. 
• Don’t throw this stand around. The plastic knobs for the spring-loaded pin that sets the upper tier height seem to be of reasonable quality, but you obviously don’t want to break them, bend the pin or cause the spring to fail. There are also a series of plastic sleeves that fit over the square tubing ends where one part is sliding over another. Breaking these might introduce some upper tier wobble, make the folding less smooth and cause scratching of the paint.  For comparison there are only 2 knobs, so that’s no worse than most 2 tier stands, and most z stands also use plastic sleeves where rectangular tubes slide over each other for height adjustment. I’ll be happy enough carting this around in my car, but I wouldn’t want it crashing around unprotected/unsecured in the back of a truck.
• The grub screws! The vertical square tubing supports are connected to the main x-stand section by means of attached cylindrical tubing that fits inside the cylindrical sections that form the base and lower keyboard tier. To stop the inner cylindrical tubing pulling out there is a small channel machined into the outer circumference of the inner tube about 30 mm from the end of the outer tube. There is a small nut welded on the outer tube, and a grub screw passes through the nut and outer tube into the machined channel on the inner tube, preventing the inner tube from coming out, while still allowing rotation of the tubes during folding of the stand.  These 4 grub screws will probably eventually work their way out, which would allow the vertical supports to be pulled out from the main x-stand.  There is enough inner tubing that, provided it is pushed in, the upper tier would not suffer catastrophic failure.  Even on a bouncy stage with all grub screws missing I suspect it would be difficult for the inner tubes to work their way out enough to be a problem, but it’s not a risk to take. This means that regular inspection and re-tightening of the grub screws when necessary is a must. Maybe some Loctite would be a good idea (I was surprised that all 4 screws on my stand seemed to be in the right position but loose).   If a grub screw goes missing, then replacement with a bolt of matching thread size should be easy enough, but still an inconvenience.
• Depth!  Like many multi-tier stands, it is designed for significant overhang of the bottom board by the upper board. Why can’t these things be made with at least a few inches of extra depth to reduce overhang?  The mythical ideal stand, would have  fully adjustable depth (top and/or bottom tier) and fully adjustable tier height to allow the upper board to sit  just overhanging the back edge the lower board before the controls start
• Hercules Ezy-Lok. – When new, the clicky position setting thing feels reassuringly secure. Much more so than I was expecting.  Again I wouldn’t want to go smashing it around and will keep an eye on it.  I’ll leave further comments on this feature of their range to someone else.

There is no ideal stand, but despite a few frustrating design aspects I am happy so far with this one for my intended use, especially for the price and given that I have other stands for other duties. Hopefully it proves out OK. Your mileage may vary.

[AnotherScott]

On 3/8/2022 at 9:33 PM, MathOfInsects said:

the additional potential problem that there is no way to move the top tier backward to leave more of the lower keyboard exposed

 

Yes, it would have been nice if those top pieces could slide back and forth within their connection piece, like one of the old Quik-Lok tiers did.

 

It also might have been conceivable that one could install the top pieces backwards to address that (rear-facing), except the built-in tilt angle would mean the board would angle upwards.

 

3 hours ago, Branwell said:

Travels "flat" with minimal footprint? – Pretty much the same as any X-stand, just a little bit longer due to the integrated 2nd tier. I don’t think there is anything better with a 2nd tier attached?

 

K&M 18880+18881 similarly breaks down in one piece and travels flat. 

 

K&M advantages: About half the travel weight. You can change the height without changing the width. Square rather than round supports provides more contact area which can help keep light boards in place, or velcro can more easily be used to lock a board into place (or to attach a small riser if need be, since if the goal is to get the two tiers closer together, it can sometimes be easier to effectively raise the lower support than to lower the upper supports).

 

Hercules advantages: Quick adjustability to different heights. (Changing the height on the K&M is a project.) Lower cost.

[niacin]

I have had one for a few years, I cut a section of each pipe that supports the second tiers so that I can get two keyboards as close together as possible. It’s rock solid and sets up in seconds. Being an x it’s not great if you want to put pedals underneath, but I have a lot more confidence in it than in other x stands. Pretty good value IMO.

[Branwell]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

K&M 18880+18881 similarly breaks down in one piece and travels flat. 

 

K&M advantages: About half the travel weight. You can change the height without changing the width. Square rather than round supports provides more contact area which can help keep light boards in place, or velcro can more easily be used to lock a board into place (or to attach a small riser if need be, since if the goal is to get the two tiers closer together, it can sometimes be easier to effectively raise the lower support than to lower the upper supports).

 

Hercules advantages: Quick adjustability to different heights. (Changing the height on the K&M is a project.) Lower cost.

 

Thanks AnotherScott. The KM18000+18881 definitely looks competitive for  the "Travels "flat" with minimal footprint" criteria. Unfortunately for my specific needs the K&M 18880 looks to have a set width of 700 mm which is too wide for the Take 5. I don't think the K&M18880 is available here in Australia. It was not on the country distibutor's product list when I checked, and I have never seen one available for sale or in the wild down under.

 

I did start this project by making a table top from ply with aluminium for strengthening, to be able to use on the wide spaced upper tier of my Monolith stand. I even had a spare 61-key soft case for  carrying the table top and upper tiers (which attach/detach really easily). However, for  the cost, reduced size  and 1 piece convenience, the Hercules option was too attractive to pass up. A table top for narrow keyboards would obviously work on the K&M, albeit with a second piece to carry, but with the advantage of a much smaller folded footprint and very much lighter weight compared to the Monolith.

 

 

[Branwell]

48 minutes ago, niacin said:

I have had one for a few years, I cut a section of each pipe that supports the second tiers so that I can get two keyboards as close together as possible. It’s rock solid and sets up in seconds. Being an x it’s not great if you want to put pedals underneath, but I have a lot more confidence in it than in other x stands. Pretty good value IMO.

 

Think I'll try shortening the upper arms as well. (I note Mathofinsects suggested this as a possibility also)

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, Branwell said:

K&M 18880 looks to have a set width of 700 mm which is too wide for the Take 5

 

You can actually set it to a variety of widths... the only thing fixing it to a particular width is one piece which is unessential and I usually don't bother with anyway. But depending on the boards, that last piece might give it some extra stability. If you want to use that last piece, while you can't go wider, you actually could go narrower by drilling another "notch" into that cross piece.

[Sean M. H.]

I have the K&M 18880 + 18881 combo.  Bought it a couple years ago.  It would be just about perfect for me, IF the height adjustment weren't such a PITA (as Scott alluded to).  The type of gigs I play vary by such a large degree--in terms of genre, available floorspace, duration, time available to setup, and just about every other way lol--that I just can't commit to ONLY sitting or standing...so now the K&M is relegated to use in my studio--making its main advantages (lightweight and easy setup) totally moot.

 

I was recently considering the Hercules 2-tier Z stand (believe it's the 410b), but I've seen mixed reviews.  Hearing that the base stand is actually pretty solid, but that the second tier has a lot of wobble...anyone who's used it care to dispute that--and talk me into buying one? 😁

 

Hadn't noticed this 210B option before though...it does seem to check a lot of boxes 🤔.  Like the OP said, there is no ideal stand; just about prioritizing your needs and accepting the compromises I suppose...

[Branwell]

I didn't really plan on using the Hercules stand with a double manual on the lower tier, but I took it for a spin at a rehersal last week just for fun.  The extra depth of the double manual Hammond  meant that the upper tier synth had to sit a bit higher so that I could still use the drawbars easily, even with the organ brought forward overhanging the bottom tier by a few inches.  I had shortened the lengths of the upper tier arms with a hacksaw which helped.

[Branwell]

Heres how it sits with a single keyboard on the lower tier - after permanently shortening the upper tiers and with an extra set of holes drilled to lower the upper tier. The Kurz PC3 on the bottom overhangs the lower tier arms a bit (the lower arms finish about where the black keys start).  The PC 3 is quite heavy, particularly towards the rear, so no problem with instability due to the overhang. 

[Ledbetter]

Don’t have their kbd stand, but been using a Hercules music stand for years. Great stand, solid and easily adjustable.

[MathOfInsects]

I don't understand how that is not just a single-braced X-stand, in terms of stability. Does the weight straight down into the feet from the second tier provide additional resistance? I would think from a physics standpoint it would work equally (well, relative to the angles) to push down and outward toward wherever the pressure was pushing already. No?

[Sean M. H.]

Question for anyone who has tried or owns this stand...am I right to assume the second tier comes all the way out and can be detached if only using one board?  But the vertical "uprights" are built into the X and not detachable?

[Branwell]

13 hours ago, Sean M. H. said:

Question for anyone who has tried or owns this stand...am I right to assume the second tier comes all the way out and can be detached if only using one board?  But the vertical "uprights" are built into the X and not detachable?

Its definitely not designed to do this.  There are some internal stops on the telescoping vertical supports that prevent the upper section of the upper tier from being pulled all the way out. Perhaps it's possible to modify this, but to get it dissembled for the mod might risk damaging the plastic collars where the square tubes slide into each other which could really stuff things up.

 

The total vertical support section  could theoretically be totally removed to create an ordinary X stand, but this requires removing grub screws at the back end of each of the horizontal round  tubes of the X part and fully pulling out the vertical supports which are attached by sl. smaller diameter inner round inserts that slide inside the horizontal round tubes  It would be super fiddly. - as well as managing small screws,  the inner round inserts must be pulled out near perfectly parallel to the X stand tubes.   I have partially done this myself, but only to understand how the stand works.  I would only ever recommend considering it if you wanted to make the change permanent or in an "emergency" where a "quick change" is not required.

 

 

[Branwell]

On 4/6/2022 at 9:05 AM, MathOfInsects said:

I don't understand how that is not just a single-braced X-stand, in terms of stability. Does the weight straight down into the feet from the second tier provide additional resistance? I would think from a physics standpoint it would work equally (well, relative to the angles) to push down and outward toward wherever the pressure was pushing already. No?

 

All of the steel parts seem to be a decent gauge that are solid/rigid enough not to bend or twist (at least not much). I agree,  it is basically a single brace X stand in terms of vertical  support from the ground, but it does seem to be a particularly strong one. I suspect the two circular plates in the middle of the X that contain the height latching thingy might help provide some additional rigidity preventing twisting/bending of those long X members relative to each other.  The vertical members telescope into each other without latching (other than the upper tier height adjustment mechanism) so they do not bear weight on the base.  However, being square sections, they do passively interlock to some extent which might buffer any wobble, even if its not a fixed connection. 

 

In my limited use so far I suspect it has been the carpet on the floor that has been the main source of any wobble (and there has been barely any) rather than  play in joints or bending/twisting members.

 

If Hercules are listening I would be interested in a deluxe version that had a significant amount of extra depth (to reduce/eliminate overhang of the top board over the bottom board), and of course full height adjustment of the top tier (i.e. a few extra holes) as well something a bit more robust to replace those grub screws. The extra depth would probably also necessitate a double X support.