Yamaha YC series firmware V1.2 update

[CyberGene]

3 minutes ago, timwat said:

I'm thinking YC73 and MODX6 - lightweight, lots of sounds, bread and butter on the bottom, setlist mode on top. 

 

Dammit I think I just talked myself into some GAS.

Yes, I'm thinking the same, I have the MODX6 and sold a Studiologic SL73 to replace with a CP73 that I'm about to purchase but this new update made me want the YC73 instead. The problem is it's the only model in the entire CP/YC range that will not be available on Thomann in the foreseeable future (12 weeks of lead time is given).

[AnotherScott]

10 hours ago, CyberGene said:

If they add the newest piano samples from the CP (felt piano, Hamburg, Bosendorfer)

 

It's an interesting question as to why they haven't. Simply a matter of wanting more differentiation between their boards? Not enough available memory in the YC because it already has lots of sounds that aren't in the CP? (Though many of those are FM sounds, which don't take memory, too.) Wanting to keep the space available for other sounds they are considering for future upgrades? (Once they give you a sound, they can't realistically take it away, so that memory becomes unavailable for other possible usage.) All that said, though, based on having played the CP before the most recent update and then hearing the added pianos only on youtube, I felt I'd be content with the pianos it already had. 

 

10 hours ago, CyberGene said:

now with the added FM-synth-like functionality
...
I'm wondering if they can also add a basic virtual-analog-lilke mono-synth functionality too. Like, assign a single saw and pulse osc mix to two of the sliders, assign basic EG, filter, portamento, detune to the rest of the sliders. Maybe add a few of those types of patches that will differ in the types of oscillators, the octave difference between them, etc.

 

I don't see them adding a virtual analog (modeled rather than sampled oscillators/waveforms) engine, it's kind of a whole different technology (whereas FM already existed in the YC). Coincidentally or not, AFAIK, there's never been a board from anyone without VA where VA was made available in an update. The closest were when Yamaha made the PLG-150AN expansion that could be installed in earlier Motifs and some other boards, and Korg's EXB-Radias expansion for the M3, but in both cases, additional hardware was required.

 

That said, they could provide analog-style manipulation for the existing sample-based (AWM2) sounds, as they have done on plenty of boards for decades (and on the existing non-organ FM sounds as well), and they could repurpose the 9 sliders to accommodate that. In fact, I did suggest this on ideascale, it's at https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/264107 if you'd like to up-vote it. It says:

 

Quote

When the Organ section is switched off, it would be nice to be able to use the 9 sliders for synth types of functions. The current Filter/EG control knob shows that the board does include adjustable Attack, Decay, Release, Filter Cutoff and Resonance (plus there's the LP filter effect settings), but more direct, instantaneous, multiple controls would increase both the simplicity and flexibility of making some of these kinds of adjustments (and also perhaps provide more of them). Roland VR09/VR730 and Numa Compact 2X are examples of boards that repurpose their drawbar sliders to also control synth parameters when appropriate. ETA: It would also be good to have the sliders send different MIDI CC in the organ and non-organ modes.

 

You mentioned portamento, and the board does have portamento, so a slider could be assigned to that as well.

 

Anyway, this idea seems more practical to me than putting in an actual VA synth, because it only involves assigning the sliders to functions/parameters that already exist elsewhere inside the instrument, as opposed to creating entirely new functionality. As a bonus, it's not limited to mono sounds, it would be equally viable on mono and poly sounds.

 

10 hours ago, CyberGene said:

 a YC73/88 which will then become a very viable Nord Stage alternative

 

Yeah, for some people I think even already, YC can be a viable Stage alternative. It does have some of the big things that prompt people to buy a Nord Stage 3 over an Electro, like the ability to split/layer two sounds where one doesn't have to be a piano or organ category sound, external MIDI zones, pitch and mod controls, separate rate and depth effects knobs (better, actually, with the endless controllers), and portamento.

 

NS3 still has advantages like aftertouch, the full knobby (and true VA) synth, custom sample loading, assignable outs, and the cool morph functionality. YC also has some nice tricks of its own, too, like physical drawbars and LED indicators on all models (Nord has only one or the other on any given Stage model), being able to set the drawbars to either "jump" or "catch" modes when you move them off of their preset-recalled positions, and having a built-in audio interface (e.g. for simpler connection to an iPad for any other sounds you might want). The actions each have their pros and cons.

 

Sonically, each has some strengths over the other. A lot of that can be subjective, but there are some technical advantages, like Yamaha's sampled acoustic instruments can have multiple velocity layers while Nord only has that for the pianos, but Nord's pianos have sophisticated string resonance implementations that Yamaha lacks. Or Nord's transistor organ emulations are more faithful, but Yamaha's non-organ FM sounds are actual FM sounds (Nord's are usually samples, though NS3 does have some FM capability in it). I like that Yamaha gives you banks of 8 buttons for one-button user-patch recall, vs. 4 in the Electro or 5 in the Stage, though the Nords support far more user-patches, and have far more sounds in them to begin with (and are changeable).

 

6 hours ago, kenheeter said:

I sold my YC61 because of the dismal rotary.

5 hours ago, jeffinpghpa said:

I decided not to get a YC61 a couple years ago

 

I also passed on the YC after having one for a couple of weeks, largely because of the rotary. I could be tempted now, except in the interim, the SK Pro appeared, and I got that. I miss the simplicity and the lighter travel weight and better drawbar implementation of the YC. And in theory, I could miss the pianos, except I typically wouldn't use any 61 as my piano board. Similarly, in theory, I could miss all the hands-on effects controls, but it just happens that I'm not really an effects tweaker. (And I won't compare the out-of-the-box organ sounds until I try the updated YC, though it certainly doesn't have all the tweakability of Hammond's.) OTOH, I like all the additional flexibility of the SK Pro, and I prefer the Hammond's action for organ. (Meanwhile, it's still not a board I actually use very often! Gigs are still relatively scarce, and I haven't had a gig that has called for that board since I've had it.)

 

From a whole different perspective here, I also passed on the CP73 after having one for a couple of weeks, largely because of the action. It's possible that could have been satisfactorily addressed with the subsequent update that included more velocity adjustment, and now that adjustability has made it to the YC73 as well. I did not give further consideration to the CP73 after the velocity update, again, because I had bought something else in the interim. But now I have to say, the YC73 looks like it could be a really appealing board under my Kurz PC4-7 (apart from the fact that I prefer shallow bottom boards), giving me a lot of what I did like about the CP73 but also an organ with better sound and better ergonomics than what's in the Kurz (though I would trigger the YC73 organ from the Kurz' keys). It's an appealing idea, albeit not a particularly cost-effective one for me at this point (essentially looking at a $2500 board primarily to add a nicer organ without having to go beyond the 2-board foundation).

 

3 hours ago, nadroj said:

They’ve finally released the one main upgrade everyone has been asking them to release for two years...Anything else needed at this point can probably be added by a phone and a single USB cable. 

 

I agree that they've addressed the most important things... primarily the Leslie, and I think also the velocity response tweaking, which were, as I said, the main reasons I didn't keep the YC61 and CP73 respectively, and the combination of the two is probably what would have eliminated the YC73 from my consideration.  That said, while some of the other additions people have asked about could be added externally, some of the other things I really wish for kind of need to be internal, i.e. improvements in interface/controls/ergonomics. Ones I've posted on ideascale (in addition to the one I referenced above):

 

* Have buttons (e.g. percussion, CV) send MIDI CC

* Permit Drawbar CC transmission within MIDI Zones

* Cycle through TOUCH settings with the +/- buttons

* change holding Page +/- buttons to Bank select instead of scroll

* Let the 4 EQ knobs also be MIDI Zone volumes

* Make navigating Voices work like navigating Live Sets

 

I also up-voted these

 

* Improved Part Switch Behaviour

* Fixed Panning for Organ, Keys A and Keys B

 

I also left suggestions in the CP section, some of which might apply to the YC as well. This is one, at least...

 

* Have Transpose apply to MIDI Out

 

 

 

[CyberGene]

6 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

That said, they could provide analog-style manipulation for the existing sample-based (AWM2) sounds, as they have done on plenty of boards for decades (and on the existing non-organ FM sounds as well), and they could repurpose the 9 sliders to accommodate that. In fact, I did suggest this on ideascale, it's at https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/264107 if you'd like to up-vote it.

 

Well, I think repurposing the AWM2 engine for acting like a VA is basically the same thing if we ignore stuff like PWM, filter FM, etc. I mean, a Minimoog type of VA isn't very different than just having a few sample-based oscillators whose pitch is being modulated by a LFO or envelope, and a filter that is being modulated by the same. So, yeah, I think what you propose could be the same. I think there's already a Minimoog lead in the synth lead patches, so just adding a few more controls to that AWM program through the drawbars when the organ is unused, would suffice to be called "VA-lite" functionality.

 

If someone at Yamaha cares to approve my account on the Ideascale some bright day this month (or whenever they decide to do so), I will certainly upvote your idea 👍🏻 I can't even read it right now. Sometimes I hate Yamaha as much as I love them...

[dickiefunk]

2 hours ago, rogs said:

 I've posted a file with a single chord - played with no vibrato or chorus - which switches between the original ('classic') rotary voice and the new 'studio' setting  - and then back again to the 'classic'. Both fast and slow.

 

Mp3 file is HERE

 

The change over to 'Studio'  - during a fast setting - was done in real time 'on the fly', just by rotating the switch between the 2  voice settings.  No other changes at all.

It's quite an improvement, IMHO !

 

Thanks for sharing this. That sounds considerably better than the original rotary effect!

[dickiefunk]

It would be interesting to hear how the new "Studio" Rotary on the YC compares to the Vent and EH Lester K.

[pinkfloydcramer]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

That's what a separate keyboard is for. Even a cheap 61-key controller will give you a very nice rig.

 

Cheers, Mike.

I also have a CP73 and was thinking I have it backwards, it would make more sense for me to have a CP88 for DP along with a YC73/61 for the shorter board. I quite like the Yamaha 73 key action, even for organ. Gear shuffling is inevitable, I'll figure out the justification later.  

[dickiefunk]

Just now, pinkfloydcramer said:

I also have a CP73 and was thinking I have it backwards, it would make more sense for me to have a CP88 for DP along with a YC73/61 for the shorter board. 

That's the setup I currently own

[stoken6]

25 minutes ago, pinkfloydcramer said:

I also have a CP73 and was thinking I have it backwards, it would make more sense for me to have a CP88 for DP along with a YC73/61 for the shorter board. I quite like the Yamaha 73 key action, even for organ. Gear shuffling is inevitable, I'll figure out the justification later.  

The Yamaha action on the CP73 and YC73 is hammer-action (BHS). If you get a CP88 then the YC61 makes sense upstairs.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[nadroj]

4 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Well, if it's a phone, it can also be a laptop. And if it's a laptop, then the board can be just a MIDI controller.

 

I've seen Yamaha being very active adding features and sounds to the MODX, CP and YC which is fantastic, they listened to their users and they haven't abandoned their products. Also, it means they have designed those products to be platforms, not just final products to move on with the next one. These instruments are apparently designed to be extensible and maintainable in the long term, i.e. these great firmware updates are not some bug-fixes but are rather additional features, so I find it natural that we use these updates as justification to suggest even more great features and additions. If they don't find those ideas good, then they just won't implement it.

 

I've never understood why some people are opposed to other users' suggestions. It's as though you yourself will get hurt in some way. Or you think Yamaha are adding those new features out of some extraordinary good will and would call us ungrateful if we suggest more features. Really can't get it...

I’m in no way opposed to suggesting new features or saying “I wish it had this.”

 

What I don’t like is “it should have this too” - especially on the day of a significant, heavily requested update. 
 

I’m as cynical as the worst of them, but this update is a good sign from Yamaha. 

[stoken6]

2 hours ago, timwat said:

I'm thinking YC73 and MODX6 - lightweight, lots of sounds, bread and butter on the bottom, setlist mode on top. 

 

Dammit I think I just talked myself into some GAS.

Nice rig if you can stomach the unweighted MODX action. 

 

Cheers, Mike.

[nadroj]

Yamaha live stream up now

 

[GovernorSilver]

I enjoyed the tech talk.  You can skip the comments if you don't want to see the likes of "When is CS61 coming?", "I tuned in late - did they update the rotary sim?", etc.

 

For convenience, click HERE to get to the YC Tools editor and librarian.

 

The demo of the drawbars for carrier/modulator control of the FM organs was cool

[nadroj]

1 minute ago, GovernorSilver said:

I enjoyed the tech talk.  You can skip the comments if you don't want to see the likes of "When is CS61 coming?", "I tuned in late - did they update the rotary sim?", etc.

 

For convenience, click HERE to get to the YC Tools editor and librarian.

 

The demo of the drawbars for carrier/modulator control of the FM organs was cool

 

Lol, the comments are always funny on those things. Really digging these new sounds.

[ElmerJFudd]

What’s in the added sounds with this rev?  Is there a harp in there? 

[AnotherScott]

The only truly new sounds are the new FM organ variations... but there are new Live Sets.

[rogs]

4 hours ago, dickiefunk said:

It would be interesting to hear how the new "Studio" Rotary on the YC compares to the Vent and EH Lester K.

Two very short clips HERE    One using a Vent.

Identical organ set up for both clips - except for the amplifier section of course. 'Studio' output first, followed by the Vent  (You can tell the Vent clip is second - the reverb 'spins' at the very end !   )

 

I would say they're playing in the same ball park now?..... It'll be interesting to try some more EQ 'tweaks' using the new EQ settings.....   Not tried that yet.

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, rogs said:

I would say they're playing in the same ball park now?..... It'll be interesting to try some more EQ 'tweaks' using the new EQ settings.....   Not tried that yet.

 

Yes, there's an interesting tonal difference, and if the goal is to get it to sound as close as possible to a Vent, the new EQ effect might give you a way to get it a little closer.

 

The Leslie sim on the Vent is really simulating three things... the spinning effect, the tonal response of the cabinet, and the tube overdrive. So one more component of the comparison, at least for players who don't prefer a clean sound, would be to add the YC's overdrive to the equation.

[GovernorSilver]

Summary of features from the link posted by the OP in the very first post.  

 

V1.10 to V1.20

New features

A new rotary speaker effect has been added.

New FM organ types have been added.

A new setting “FM Color Type” has been added to the “Drawbar Color” setting.

Three EQs have been added to the effect types.

A new setting “Touch Sensitivity” has been added to the Settings.

The locations in the menu of “EG Control” and “Filter Control” have been changed.

New Live Set Sounds have been added.

New Voices have been added.

 

I took a look at the manual from the official site.  The Voice List is on p.58.  The non-organ ones are in Keys A/B and the FM synth ones all have FM in front of their names.

 

 

[brenner13]

Ooh, back on the short list. 

[TomKittel]

This update sold me. Just ordered a YC61. Wondering if it features the same keybed as the Vox Continental 61? Yamaha used to be a shareholder of Korg. They still seem to maintain a cooperation.

[rogs]

1 hour ago, TomKittel said:

 .....Wondering if it features the same keybed as the Vox Continental 61? .....

I don't think so. As I understand it, Yamaha developed their YC61 'waterfall' keybed especially for this project....

 

[dickiefunk]

I’ve been trying the new update this morning and have to say it is quite an improvement over the original sim. I would possibly go as far as saying I prefer it over any rotary sim I’ve tried in a keyboard ( Hammond XK1, Hammond SK1, Roland VK7/8 and maybe even the Nord S3 though it’s been a while since I used the Nord ). 
 

The original rotary sim sounds thin and nasally with very poor definition between the horn and drum rotors. However,, Yamaha has really listened to its customers and has addressed all these issues with the rotary sim in the new update.

[AnotherScott]

5 hours ago, TomKittel said:

Just ordered a YC61. Wondering if it features the same keybed as the Vox Continental 61?

 

It does not. I prefer the Vox action, but the YC61 is still a nice feeling action. Here's what I wrote in the original YC61 thread back when I first tried it in December 2020:

 

Quote

Action: Decidedly above average. One unexpected characteristic is that it kind of has a bit of an escapement feel, you do feel a letoff part way down. So you get the initial resistance that helps when playing pianos, but unlike, say, the Nord semi-weighteds, that initial tension actually RELEASES a bit as you press further, rather than increasing/maximizing. It nicely does not push back after you've landed. This makes it much better than the Nords for piano playing. But maybe especially because it does have that bit of extra resistance toward the top of the travel I REALLY miss the high trigger point, since you do have to hit with a certain amount of force to overcome that initial resistance and trigger the note, which impedes some organ technique. Surprisingly, organ has a lower release point than the other sounds, I'm not sure what I think about that. (It does not behave that way over MIDI, so the release point will feel different driving an external organ sound.) Overall, I'd say it's a better action in general than the too-heavily-sprung Nord/Dexibell semi-weighted TP8O actions, the too-stiff-in-the-back low end Roland (DS61/FA06) and Korg (Kross/Krome/KingKorg) actions, the Numa Compacts... it's definitely one of the better actions. But the Vox Continental clearly feels better to my fingers. The YC61 landing is a bit softer, which probably relates to the report of it being quieter. Whether because of that, or the trigger point, or who knows what, somehow the Vox just has the better FTEC to me.

 

Subsequent to that report, I also realized that I had wished for more control over the width and "centering" of the dynamic range of some sounds (I think it was EPs in particular), but this new update adds the ability to further customize the velocity curve options, which probably addresses that. (The Vox has a front panel dynamics knob, an interesting alternate approach.)

 

I compared the resistance of the two by stacking nickels on the front of the white keys, an imperfect test for a variety of reasons, but here was the result...

 

Stacked nickels required to initiate any movement (which is not necessarily the same as point of greatest resistance, or enough to sound a note):

YC61 = 8, Vox = 11 (though in particular, the YC will need more force to overcome that "escapement bump" I mentioned earlier, and also the Vox high trigger means that it should trigger organ higher in its travel than the YC does)

 

Stacked nickels required to keep a depressed key fully depressed:

YC61 = 15, Vox = 10 (both of these figures are nicely lower than average, and neither of these boards really feel like they push back against you)

 

 

 

[Delaware Dave]

The organ itself doesn't sound 'hammond-ish' to me in tone; it sounds more like a roller rink organ.  The leslie is improved...

[TomKittel]

52 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Stacked nickels required to keep a depressed key fully depressed:

YC61 = 15, Vox = 10 (both of these figures are nicely lower than average, and neither of these boards really feel like they push back against you)

 

Good to know. I still remember the terrible pushback of the Kurzweil PC3-76 and the Artis 7 which made these boards unplayable for me.

[Adan]

Even with the update, the YC gives you very few variations to choose from.  The YC, Electro, and Vox are similar in their "like it or leave it" approach, whereas Hammond gives the user almost endless customization.  I like the YC Hammond emulation.  There's a very appealing airy thunk to it.

 

Like Scott, I would say the Vox action is probably my favorite amongst current clones, though the SKPro and Mojo are a very close tie for second.  The YC action is lovely: silky and quiet, but the lack of high trigger and smaller width keys sort of take it out of the running for favorite clone action.  The YC action is a wonderful semi-weighted action for playing pianos.

[TomKittel]

5 minutes ago, Adan said:

The YC action is a wonderful semi-weighted action for playing pianos.

Sounds like a good compromise to me. I will report as soon as I have played the YC61.

[Stokely]

Whoa...this just became a contender as I am looking to--once again--add an organ-centric keyboard to my live rig and also for home use controlling software organs.  I haven't yet checked into whether the drawbars send midi cc (and not sysex) on the units I'm considering.

The one I was eyeing was the Mojo 61, which of course is the most limited but I think paired with my Forte that's quite all right.  I  play a lot of organ, EPs and (try to play) clav so that's a good match!  I really want something that plays and feels great.  While I loved the Electro I used to have (sold only when planning to get a stage compact) I didn't like the action that much (too stiff).  Still, in retrospect I should have kept the Electro and saved myself some hassle, so re-buying one is still a possibility mainly due to the excellent controls.

Strange that these keys would not have a shallow trigger if I'm hearing rightly (??)  As far as stiffness, would it be fair to say this is somewhere between the Mojo and an Electro?  Perhaps similar to a VR-700 (great action IMO).?

[TomKittel]

Hope the YC61 will allow me to get rid of any keyboard submixer hassle. It seems to be one of very few organ centric keyboards (if not the only one) which features regular sized audio in jacks plus an additional class compliant USB audio interface to easily hook up an iphone/ipad as additional sound source. B3-X and Korg Module are awaiting their new host instrument!  

[drawback]

13 minutes ago, TomKittel said:

Hope the YC61 will allow me to get rid of any keyboard submixer hassle. It seems to be one of very few organ centric keyboards (if not the only one) which features regular sized audio in jacks plus an additional class compliant USB audio interface to easily hook up an iphone/ipad as additional sound source. B3-X and Korg Module are awaiting their new host instrument!  

I can see B-3X, but what would you want from Module that isn't just as good if not better on the YC?