Yamaha YC series firmware V1.2 update

[wd8dky]

In all seriousness (I'm not at all trolling) is the consensus that this new update truly  exceeds the Mojo and/or B3x? 

 

Thx

[TomKittel]

8 hours ago, wd8dky said:

In all seriousness (I'm not at all trolling) is the consensus that this new update truly  exceeds the Mojo and/or B3x? 

 

Thx

As far as I can tell the YC61 sounds at least as good as the B3X. I like the YC61 sound better. The diverse EQ and drive settings make it way more versatile. The same is particularly true compared to the VB3 II which the Mojo seems to be based upon. But I never played a Mojo. So I can't answer this part of the question. It's all a matter of taste for sure. But since the 1.2 update the YC61 is a strong contender in the clonewheel market. When I bought the YC my plan was to use it with B3X/iPad among other things. But this is completely superfluous. And my Vent II is now finally out of work too.

JMTC

[wd8dky]

Thank you very much for your assessment!

[ElmerJFudd]

9 hours ago, wd8dky said:

In all seriousness (I'm not at all trolling) is the consensus that this new update truly  exceeds the Mojo and/or B3x? 

 

Thx

I would think all the updated STUDIO simulation needed to do was negate the need for a Ventilator.  Most players who aren't already gigging with an iPad or Laptop as their sound source don't "need" or want B3x or any extra hardware to carry or setup.  

[Delaware Dave]

11 hours ago, wd8dky said:

In all seriousness (I'm not at all trolling) is the consensus that this new update truly  exceeds the Mojo and/or B3x? 

 

Thx

The leslie improvement is very good.  The Yammy organ/leslie  still does not exceed B3x nor the Mojo. My two cents. 

[Stokely]

For those of you more into playing organ--I'm working on it, but it's not my background--how much of a difference does the lack of high note trigger make?   Are there certain techniques that aren't possible, or at least more difficult?   I know it's a feature of most waterfall keyboards (heck I think it's even there with my Forte on organ patches, though obviously it's not the same playing on weighted keys!).

I'm still weighing pros and cons between the YC61 and competition and uncovering all the stones   

 

[ElmerJFudd]

17 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

The leslie improvement is very good.  The Yammy organ/leslie  still does not exceed B3x nor the Mojo. My two cents. 

Time for yet another good shoot out!   

[Noah DC]

I’m kind of surprised to see interest in swapping out a Mojo 61 for the updated YC61 - and game to learn what’s appealing to folks about that. Is the new organ that much better than the Mojo? Or are people thinking it’s worth the extra $500 (more if you’re selling a used Mojo) just for the better pianos and the bi-timbral feature? Seems like a lot of dough just for those pieces. That said, these YC boards are very cool…

[Stokely]

I'm one of the people debating that, though in my case I own neither and would be adding one of them.

The YC seems pretty similar to the Electro I owned:  the extra sounds (synths, strings) were pretty useful to me on the Electro.  Not essential, but handy.  Having patches is a nice thing too.  It is ten pounds lighter than the Mojo yet still has an internal power supply, that is pretty cool.  It seems they are still adding stuff to it (though I always figure, buy what is there now because you never know.)   It has the audio interface, I have been ironically using the same from my MODX to control B3X--and while I'm a bit tired of needing to rely on an ipad, it is a nice feature requiring one cable and there if you need to fill in holes in the soundset.

That said, I already have a do-everything keyboard and neither one of these would do gigs by itself for me...so having the Mojo do what it does in a simpler fashion has some appeal as well.   Reading the manual, it has anticipated nicely the fact that someone may use it to control something else, if you turn off local sounds it will use whatever "alternative midi channel" you have set for it.  This is pretty nice if I want to use it to play sounds from my main keyboard.

I've played neither but from what I have read, I'll probably like the keybeds on either more than I did the Electro.  But I do have the question about the lack of high trigger point on the YC (see above.)

[Outkaster]

22 minutes ago, Noah DC said:

I’m kind of surprised to see interest in swapping out a Mojo 61 for the updated YC61 - and game to learn what’s appealing to folks about that. Is the new organ that much better than the Mojo? Or are people thinking it’s worth the extra $500 (more if you’re selling a used Mojo) just for the better pianos and the bi-timbral feature? Seems like a lot of dough just for those pieces. That said, these YC boards are very cool…

I think the build quality is better than the Mojo.  When I had mine it had to be returned twice for problems.  I also didn't like that it sounded weak through the front of house but it is a very popular clone around here.

[TomKittel]

45 minutes ago, Delaware Dave said:

The leslie improvement is very good.  The Yammy organ/leslie  still does not exceed B3x nor the Mojo. My two cents. 

 

Is your assessment based on demos or have you compared these three instruments yourself? At the end of the day, I doubt anyone could tell any of the current clonewheels apart in a blind test if played by a capable organ player. There is no such thing as the one and only Hammond sound anyway. All I can say is that I'm having endless fun with the YC61. It has exceeded my expectations. This applies not only to the organ but to the entire versatility of this instrument. And for what it's worth in my arsenal of the last few years it's the first clonewheel that makes me completely forget about the Vent.
JMTC

[ElmerJFudd]

5 hours ago, Noah DC said:

I’m kind of surprised to see interest in swapping out a Mojo 61 for the updated YC61 - and game to learn what’s appealing to folks about that. Is the new organ that much better than the Mojo? Or are people thinking it’s worth the extra $500 (more if you’re selling a used Mojo) just for the better pianos and the bi-timbral feature? Seems like a lot of dough just for those pieces. That said, these YC boards are very cool…

imho for the increased cost of the YC you get a better Swiss Army knife keyboard, an action that plays better for non-organ sounds, Yamaha build quality, Yamaha support and service centers all over the world.  
 

However, the Mojo61 is awesome at its lower price point, more organ-like action if the organ section is your priority. Not to mention there’s a path to dual manuals if that’s your thing.  

[Josh Paxton]

4 hours ago, Noah DC said:

I’m kind of surprised to see interest in swapping out a Mojo 61 for the updated YC61 - and game to learn what’s appealing to folks about that. Is the new organ that much better than the Mojo? Or are people thinking it’s worth the extra $500 (more if you’re selling a used Mojo) just for the better pianos and the bi-timbral feature? Seems like a lot of dough just for those pieces. That said, these YC boards are very cool…

 

In terms of the organ itself, each board has strengths that the other lacks.

 

In the Mojo's favor: very slightly better chorus (to my ears), more customization options with deeper editing (different models, Leslie mic distance, etc.), more parameters adjustable from the front panel (key click, possibly others that I'm forgetting). Also, more authentic placement of percussion controls, if you care about that (which I don't).

 

In the YC's favor: better key click and "spit" quality (to my ears), stronger bottom end without having to mess with EQ.

 

Overall they're close enough that I would be perfectly happy playing either on a gig. But the bitimbrality and synth capabilities make the YC a far more versatile gigging board. Before I got the YC, for a lot of gigs I'd end up bringing a weighted bottom board, the Mojo, and a third board for synths. The YC eliminates my need for that third board. If I had unlimited space and resources, I might keep both and use the Mojo just for jazz organ gigs. But in the real world, the extra space and $$ will be far more useful for me.

[hookie]

5 hours ago, Noah DC said:

I’m kind of surprised to see interest in swapping out a Mojo 61 for the updated YC61 - and game to learn what’s appealing to folks about that. Is the new organ that much better than the Mojo? Or are people thinking it’s worth the extra $500 (more if you’re selling a used Mojo) just for the better pianos and the bi-timbral feature? Seems like a lot of dough just for those pieces. That said, these YC boards are very cool…

And I can’t help but wonder how the SK Pro fits in here sound wise. Especially SK Pro vs updated YC.  Any thoughts, first hand comparisons? 

[AnotherScott]

22 hours ago, wd8dky said:

In all seriousness (I'm not at all trolling) is the consensus that this new update truly  exceeds the Mojo and/or B3x? 

 

At least before you posted that, nobody who had played one had compared it to B-3X, but Pigmeat and Josh Paxton said they would replace their Mojo with the YC... but we don't know if they think it beats the Mojo as an organ, or it's as good but has other benefits, of it's not quite as good but is close enough and, again, is worth changing for the other benefits. So I don't think anyone had actually yet said YC exceeds either of those, maybe Pigmeat and Josh will pipe in. {ETA: I see Josh has subsequently posted with a more thorough comparison, I missed that before. And his response points out again how hard it is to say something is simply "better" than something else... very likely it will be better in some ways and not as good in others, so it depends what's most important to you.}  Kenheeter also thinks it might replace his Mojo and he wouldn't bother with B-3X, but he's still waiting to receive his, so I guess that's based on youtube videos of the YC. But there have been some more posts since you asked. As you saw, Tom Kittel finds it at least as good as B3X and Mojo. Which brings me to...

 

18 hours ago, TomKittel said:

As far as I can tell the YC61 sounds at least as good as the B3X. I like the YC61 sound better. The diverse EQ and drive settings make it way more versatile. The same is particularly true compared to the VB3 II which the Mojo seems to be based upon. 

 

That's really interesting, also in light the discussion of Adan's earlier comment: "Even with the update, the YC gives you very few variations to choose from.  The YC, Electro, and Vox are similar in their 'like it or leave it' approach" - At first I was going to express surprise that you thought there was more versatility in the YC organ sound than there is in the B3X and Mojo, both of which give you a wider range of basic organ tone models and a greater variety in tweakable options and/or effects. But I do see a rationale for considering the YC, well, I'm not sure I'd say MORE versatile than Mojo (VB3-II) and B-3X, but at least pretty darn versatile, and in a different league there than the Electro and Vox. 

 

The way I see this is that the Mojo, despite all the different organ models, always sounds pretty much like a Mojo (which is not a bad thing), whereas between the H1/H2/H3 settings (along with others). the YC may have a wider range of sounds that don't sound as much like they're necessarily all variations of the basic sound of one implementation. Looked at from this alternate perspective, Nord always sounds like Nord, Vox always sounds like Vox, Mojo--despite much more variation than those others--still tends to sound like a Mojo, whereas the YC seems to have more different fundamental characters to work with. (Or maybe it's just that you can get to them more easily?) I'm not sure about where B-3X falls in this respect, I haven't played with it enough. BTW, I haven't actually played with the Mojo per se, but with the Gemini module which has the same VB3-II engine.

 

11 hours ago, Stokely said:

For those of you more into playing organ--I'm working on it, but it's not my background--how much of a difference does the lack of high note trigger make?   Are there certain techniques that aren't possible, or at least more difficult?  

 

I mentioned somewhere that I find fast trills a bit clumsy on the YC61... like what Emerson does starting at about the one-minute point in the video at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQQdYokbp4E . It's combination of the lack of high trigger, plus the extra resistance at the top of the key's travel, plus the low release, seem to add up to an impediment there. (I'd imagine this arrangement might also interfere with the "percussive slap" techniques some people use, but that's not really something I do.) 

 

 

 

 

[Adan]

The new leslie sim finally allows the YC to be a full fledged member of the Elite Clone Club ("ECC," or maybe "ECC!").  So, whereas before there were players who'd say that although they like the swiss army knife ("SAK") aspect of the YC, it falls short because it's not an ECC.  Now that the YC is both a SAK and an ECC, it can garner a whole new collection of Fan Boys ("FBs").  The Mojo is more or less a single purpose clone ("SPC"), because though it has some very nice other sounds, it's monotimbral.  The discussion of which is the better clone will probably be academic in most real world situations because although each ECC will have its FBs, the difference in ECC-ranking is probably outweighed by the difference between a SAK versus a SPC.

 

Speaking for myself, if I were just comparing the YC to the Mojo and pretending they were both SPC's, I'd probably choose the Mojo for the more Hammond-like feel of the keys and to have momentary footswitch for leslie speed.  It's not that momentary is better than toggle in an objective sense, it's that my muscle memory is trained for momentary to the point where using toggle takes a significant amount of mental bandwidth.

[TomKittel]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

At first I was going to express surprise that you thought there was more versatility in the YC organ sound than there is in the B3X and Mojo, both of which give you a wider range of basic organ tone models and a greater variety in tweakable options and/or effects.

 

With regards to variety:

1) The three Hammond models in the YC61 really differ from each other. Many clonewheels are featuring different models. However, most of them differ only very subtly.
2) The different FM organ models can be tailored to produce 'hammondish' tones as well as convincing Vox and Farfisa tones or whatever crazy tones are desired.
3) Add to that the three rotary sims and four amp sims (BTW the old 'classic' and 'overdrive' rotary sims can still make sense for some sounds) plus a variety of adjustable and programmable EQ and drive settings. The new EQs pack a punch and they can really make a difference.

Alltogether the sound shaping options can lead to surprising results. I would not agree that the YC61 only offers very few variations to choose from. The opposite is true if you dig deeper into it's programmability. YC owners should check out Soundmondo. For example Katsumi Ujiie is demoing some of his Artist Sound Sets here. The following examples were based on the old OS with sub-optimal rotary sim. Organs start at minute 7:00.  
 

 

[Outkaster]

18 hours ago, hookie said:

And I can’t help but wonder how the SK Pro fits in here sound wise. Especially SK Pro vs updated YC.  Any thoughts, first hand comparisons? 

The SK Pro is awesome.  I did a gig with mine last week.

[Al Coda]

A comparison w/ the new SKX Pro would be interesting too and even SKX Pro offers dual manuals.

Isn´t the SKX Pro improved over the SK Pro ?

 

☺️

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

6 minutes ago, Al Coda said:

Isn´t the SKX Pro improved over the SK Pro ?

 

I don't think there are any sonic difference, but there are some feature enhancements, like being able to repurpose 4 of the synth sliders to act as EQ controls (instead of having to bring up a menu), and the addition of a dedicated overdrive knob (ditto). Not sure if there is anything else.

 

 

[Al Coda]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I don't think there are any sonic difference, but there are some feature enhancements, like being able to repurpose 4 of the synth sliders to act as EQ controls (instead of having to bring up a menu), and the addition of a dedicated overdrive knob (ditto). Not sure if there is anything else.

 

 

 

Leslie sim is exactly the same,- identical ?

 

🤔

 

A.C.

[AnotherScott]

10 hours ago, Al Coda said:

 

Leslie sim is exactly the same,- identical ?

 

I have not seen any indication of any difference, but I have no inside info, nor have I played an SKx Pro. My understand is that the Sk and SK Pro are sonically identical. Maybe Jim Alfredson can confirm..

[AnotherScott]

On 3/4/2022 at 3:24 PM, hookie said:

And I can’t help but wonder how the SK Pro fits in here sound wise. Especially SK Pro vs updated YC.  Any thoughts, first hand comparisons? 

 

SK Pro vs YC61 is an interesting comparison. Strictly from the organ perspective, SK Pro is enormously tweakable and you can indeed get very different organ characters out of it, I don't think any other hardware board beats it in that department, and maybe not software either. I think it sounds great, and compared to the YC, it adds not just high trigger but also the multi-contact simulation. YC61 also has some organ advantages of its own... the nice drawbar LEDs, and switchable jump/catch behavior.

 

Briefly leaving the organ category, notable differences include...

 

* I think Yamaha's non-organ acoustic instruments sounds (certainly piano/EP!) are stronger than Hammond's, but Hammond's are fully editable, and Hammond has the mono VA synth

 

* Yamaha lets you split/layer up to 2 of the non-organ sounds, Hammond lets you split/layer 9 (8 sample based, plus the VA synth)

 

* Yamaha has all the realtime effects

 

* Yamaha is a lot easier to use

 

* Yamaha is noticeably lighter. In the 73, Yamaha is hammer action, Hammond is waterfall (giving Hammond another advantage if we're talking about comparing these boards from an "organ first" perspective)

 

* Yamaha has balanced outs in the 73, Hammond has assignable outs (in both sizes)

 

And now finally to get to hookie's specific question, how they compare soundwise, as organs... I finally got to compare them tonight, though not for long, and not on a wide variety of organ sounds. But my preliminary feeling is... the SK Pro wins. I spent some time trying to get a particular SK Pro sound I like out of the YC, I couldn't get it there (though the YC still sounded very good, and would have been perfectly satisfying if I hadn't heard it next to the SK).  With the SK's adjustments, I suspect I probably *could* get it to come pretty close to duplicating any of the Yamaha's tonewheel organ sounds.

 

Of course, there's a bunch of subjectivity to this,  too. I'm going to try to get around to doing at least a basic video (or at least audio) comparison soon. 

 

 

[CyberGene]

Received my YC61 from Thomann today. It's a B-Stock which was €150 off but it seems pristine, no traces of use whatsoever. It came with 1.02 which I guess is the initial firmware and I'm wondering if it was actually an old showroom model and not a user return. Anyway, I updated it to 1.20.

 

BTW, @AnotherScott, the default presets are updated to use the Studio rotary speaker, at least the main one is updated, haven't checked the rest. Wondering if they weren't updated on the YC73 since you said they stayed with the Classic one. That's odd.

 

I'm not a Hammond user, never played a real one nor have been too interested or familiar with the Hammond organ or the Leslie speakers, so I can't comment on the improvement but I checked between the two and I think it's very apparent that the Studio (the new one) sound better than the Classic one.

 

I like the keyboard, it's pretty good for pianos and Rhodes. But I started wondering if I should have gotten the 73 instead since I'm a pianist after all. Anyway, I have 30 days to decide whether to return this and replace it with a YC73 (which will be available after 2-3 months according to Thomann).

 

A few things that I don't like:

- I'm not sure I'm very fond of having to switch between Key A and B. It would be much better to have them separately but there's no space for that. It makes me think whether I should actually take the CP73 instead (immediately available at Thomann) since I'm not sure how much I will play Hammond organs although I like them and we plan on doing some classic rock and progressive stuff but still.

- The selector for category (piano, e.piano, synth, other) is one with 4 fixed positions, not an endless encoder. If you are, say, on the last one, i.e. "Other" for key A and the selector is physically there, then switch to B which is on the first position "Piano" and you decide to move to another category, you would intuitively try to turn towards the next category but it would be stuck since physically the knob is already at its last position. I hate this type of things. Wondering why they didn't replace it with endless knobs.

- I like that there's portamento for the mono synths, however if you remove all the effects and listen to the raw sound of an AWM2 program, say the Moog lead, the portamento is stepped and sound pretty awkward. I guess that's inevitable with sampled engines trying to do a portamento but as an owner of a Boog Model D and a Hydrasynth, it's a bit disappointing to have to listen to such a lame portamento.

- No way I can remember and decode the two-letter effect meaning.

 

With all these things in mind, I'm wondering if I should actually replace this with a CP73, or at least a YC73. I think the ergonomic of the CP73 is better with more immediate knobs and switches (no need to switch between A/B that are reusing the same knobs and switches). Well, no organs, no FM and no portamento, but I have the Hydrasynth for that. Or if I stick to the YC, maybe still switch to the YC73 for its hammer action and full Rhodes register...

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

BTW, @AnotherScott, the default presets are updated to use the Studio rotary speaker, at least the main one is updated, haven't checked the rest. Wondering if they weren't updated on the YC73 since you said they stayed with the Classic one. That's odd.

 

That is strange! Similar to yours, mine did not come with the latest OS, I had to update it. But after the update, the default Live Set when I turned it on did not have the Studio Leslie. Odd indeed! Unless maybe I somehow moved off sound #1 without realizing it...?

 

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

A few things that I don't like:

- I'm not sure I'm very fond of having to switch between Key A and B. It would be much better to have them separately but there's no space for that.

 

Yes. It relates to how I'd sum up the main YC/CP interface difference. Both let you efficiently program in the sounds you're going to need at a gig (CP a little more so, albeit with other limitations). Both let you easily tweak key parameters at the gig. But the CP is operationally the better of the two for those who want to be able to quickly assemble sound combinations (and their effects) from scratch on the fly, during the performance rather than in advance.

 

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

- The selector for category (piano, e.piano, synth, other) is one with 4 fixed positions, not an endless encoder. If you are, say, on the last one, i.e. "Other" for key A and the selector is physically there, then switch to B which is on the first position "Piano" and you decide to move to another category, you would intuitively try to turn towards the next category but it would be stuck since physically the knob is already at its last position. I hate this type of things. Wondering why they didn't replace it with endless knobs.

 

Yup. That's one I put up at ideascale, feel free to upvote... https://yamahasynth.ideascale.com/c/idea/263792

 

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

- No way I can remember and decode the two-letter effect meaning.

 

Yeah. The screen shows you as you go, but it's still awkward, not knowing where the one you're on is, relative to the one you want. I was thinking that even taping a printout of the 35 or whatever effects to the top of the board would be good. Not much room for that on the 61, though.

 

Some of this stuff (and other similar) is also what I discussed at https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/cp73-cp88-vs-yc73-yc88

 

 

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

That is strange! Similar to yours, mine did not come with the latest OS, I had to update it. But after the update, the default Live Set when I turned it on did not have the Studio Leslie. Odd indeed! Unless maybe I somehow moved off sound #1 without realizing it...?

 

I did some more tests, seems like only the first 3 live sets have been updated to the new rotary, i.e. live sets 1-1, 1-2, 1-3. The fourth one is a FM-organ and then some non-organ sounds follow on that page. And then organs on the pages that follow use the Classic one. I went through a few of them, not all of them, but I guess they just updated the main three organs on the default first page to showcase it and that's it. Since the YC73 and 88 have slightly rearranged live sets and pages, I would assume they didn't bother to showcase the new rotary on the organs that are in the first page. That is an odd decision by Yamaha but well, it's Yamaha after all

 

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

Some of this stuff (and other similar) is also what I discussed at https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/cp73-cp88-vs-yc73-yc88

I think I might have read that in the past but I should have read it more recently. As always, your analysis are always very thorough and spot on!

 

BTW, just noticed one other difference. I tried to change the reverb type on the YC and realized it only has send level 😲 No way to change the type or at least time, they probably just hardcoded a "hall" type one with some fixed time. And checking the user manual of CP it has an additional "time" knob.

 

OTOH, I just went through the FM-sounds and some lead sounds are especially nice, the portamento is great. And all the added effects are great for shaping those sounds. I'm really torn between the CP and YC but I'm starting to love the YC61.

 

I created a Rhodes/FM lead2 split that I enjoyed but couldn't find how to disable the mod wheel for the Rhodes sound and it does something pretty weird to it, I switched the effects off but it kept modulating it, I guess a fixed vibrato in the AWM program. Either I am missing something (I disabled sustain pedal for the lead sound but can't see mod wheel menus), or that is an omission.

[CyberGene]

29 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

couldn't find how to disable the mod wheel for the Rhodes sound

OK, found it in the user manual. I should go into the mod wheel depth menu and then can change for each section separately. Nice!

[kenheeter]

I find the YC61  incredibly tweakable. So far everything I have asked it to do seems doable, I just need to become more familiar with their approach. Very powerful.

[dickiefunk]

One feature I wish the YC had was a third organ zone for pedals. I would love to be able to use my YC as the top manual and then send both pedal and lower manual split to a second keyboard.

[kenheeter]

I just spent some time with Mojo61, B3X and YC61.  In my opinion for purely Hammond/CV/Leslie realism I think B3X is still the best. Second in realism is the Mojo61, third is YC61. The Mojo61 is still the best hardware I have for Hammond feel and sound ( with the exception of my B3/Leslie, which is relegated to the studio these days ). The YC61 is very good for Hammond/CV/Leslie and does so many other things so well, not the least of which is the USB implementation.  The YC61 connected to my iPad pro is a killer combination. So, the bottom line for me is that I'm fortunate to have all of these options in my arsenal and depending on the demands of the gig I'm certain they'll all get lots of use.