Yamaha CP88/YC88 vs. the rest

[funkyhammond]

Here is an edited video clip I made of the 'black keys' issue in the YC73, playing a repeated note, and then chords.

 

You can hear the rhythmic accents of my fingers on the actual keys and how the black keys are not responding (other than on the first strike) the way the white keys are. You can still hear volume dynamics, so I don't know if it's the high-velocity layer not getting triggered or if it's the attack of the note getting muted. And I'm just playing fast 1/8th notes, nothing crazy fast. If I slowed down the tempo, then the black keys started responding as expected (I didn't record that). It's like there is something weird happening in the key return of the action of the black keys that needs a bit of time to reset. The velocity curve adjustments didn't really help because they affected everything, of course, the white and black keys. This issue is about the balance between the white and black keys. Also, I think I did notice that the black keys, in general, need a tiny bit more velocity than the white keys to trigger the high-velocity layers, but it was too subtle to be sure. But it did feel that way, especially when comparing to the CP88.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ftqP4WX8IAi5k0eONvtwu3z4Dz9PpMzy/view?usp=sharing

 

 

[CyberGene]

I thought the black key issue had been fixed in later batches of the CP73. It’s odd that it reappears in the YC73 which is a newer instrument. I’m waiting for my YC73 to arrive at Thomann on May 31 and hopefully it will be a new batch that has it fixed but that’s just wishful thinking. 

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

The black keys. Ugh. I reproduced the issue. I will attach a video in a separate post. 

Thanks for posting that video, I finally really understand the issue. (The people who have described it in words talk about same note repetition, but it's hard to get a sense of what they're experiencing without knowing how fast those repetitions need to be for the issue to arise.) I just duplicated what you did on my own YC73... and I had no issue at all. Whether this is some kind of subtle difference in our strikes or a defect in your board, I can't be sure... but for whatever reason, this is a problem not everyone experiences. I wonder if you might have the opportunity to try another YC73/CP73 somewhere.

 

3 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

I could sometimes hear subtle micro-stepping/zipper effect when using pitch bend or portamento with certain sounds

I don't know if this relates to what you're hearing, but pitch-shifting samples does have some inherent limitations. I wonder if you might find that the problem occurs on the AWM2 (sample based) sounds, but not the FM sounds.

 

3 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

Alternatives that I'm considering for a 73/7x hammer-action stage keyboard in a similar price range:

 

Nord Electro 5/6 HP 73

Korg SV-2 73  (no clonewheel, just organ patches)

 

I'm looking for good EPs, decent APs, a portable hammer-action, and would prefer that it had a clonewheel built in but I have other options for that if necessary. 

You might also add Dexibell Vivo S3 Pro and Numa X Piano (73) to your list. 

 

I have no personal experience with the Numa, but in terms of these models from Nord/Korg/Yamaha/Dexibell (also keeping in mind the Dexibell's ability to load soundfonts), and just speaking in terms of sounds (not actions), I'd say that for AP, Korg is probably the weakest of the bunch, and for EP, Nord is probably weakest of the bunch. Though none are bad, and there is subjectivity here as always. (And of course, only the Yamaha and Nord give you the clonewheel.)

[drawback]

I've been interested in the NumaX since the launch, and there are listings for them but no product yet. The TP100 was a turn-off, but hopefully the new 110 will be... er... ten better. 

[funkyhammond]

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Thanks for posting that video, I finally really understand the issue. (The people who have described it in words talk about same note repetition, but it's hard to get a sense of what they're experiencing without knowing how fast those repetitions need to be for the issue to arise.) I just duplicated what you did on my own YC73... and I had no issue at all. Whether this is some kind of subtle difference in our strikes or a defect in your board, I can't be sure... but for whatever reason, this is a problem not everyone experiences. I wonder if you might have the opportunity to try another YC73/CP73 somewhere.

 

Yeah, it's a combination of playing at about that speed (or faster) and hitting some hard accents to get the high-velocity sound to trigger. I found it easier to hear the difference with EPs rather than APs. And it might not require that level of repetition and intensity to just "feel" like something is off, which is maybe what most people were experiencing. It can be tricky to find a way to reproduce something consistently. Oh, would you mind trying again with the factory velocity curve setting? I remember you adjusted yours. Anyway, I'll see if I can check the manufacture date of that keyboard. Next time, I'll try some actual real-world scenarios, like Latin patterns with doubled 16ths, or fast trills/tremolos with sustain. I would care more about that then my artificial test in the video.

 

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I don't know if this relates to what you're hearing, but pitch-shifting samples does have some inherent limitations. I wonder if you might find that the problem occurs on the AWM2 (sample based) sounds, but not the FM sounds.

 

Possibly. Anyway, not a deal-breaker for a live band situation. 

 

6 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

You might also add Dexibell Vivo S3 Pro and Numa X Piano (73) to your list. 

 

I really don't know much about Dexibell keyboards, their reliability, resale value, etc. There were a couple in the local music store so I'll see what they have. From online pics, the original S3/S7 looks more "pro" than the newer Pro series. I wish they had stuck closer to the original color scheme. Cool that they can load soundfonts but I'm not sure how much I'd use that unless there are some really good quality EP soundfonts out there. I guess I could make my own organ soundfonts, which might be useful for a keyboard that doesn't have a clonewheel. 

 

I am interested in the Numa X Piano but have no idea how long the wait will be. Any word on that? It's great that it has aftertouch and I am curious about the new keybed and the new design of aftertouch sensor (using the hammer rather than the bottom of the key).

 

[dickiefunk]

9 hours ago, drawback said:

I've been interested in the NumaX since the launch, and there are listings for them but no product yet. The TP100 was a turn-off, but hopefully the new 110 will be... er... ten better. 

If you’re interested in the Numa X Piano I would recommend trying the free Numa Player app/vst as this has some of the core sounds from that piano. I have been trying them and have to say I am quite disappointed with the sounds. I personally much prefer the samples on my Yamaha CP88.

[Pa Gherkin]

Funky, Thank you for posting your demonstration of the CP/YC 73 black key issue. The problem is exactly how I envisioned it. That would drive me crazy. I once had a Roland piano that did the same thing on all keys. Called Roland and they couldn’t have cared less. Dumped that stinker fast. The Yamaha 73 issue is a shame since I really wanted one till first hearing about this issue. Thanks again for sharing.

[AnotherScott]

7 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

would you mind trying again with the factory velocity curve setting? I remember you adjusted yours.

I tried it both ways, no issues for me.

 

7 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

I really don't know much about Dexibell keyboards...From online pics, the original S3/S7 looks more "pro" than the newer Pro series. I wish they had stuck closer to the original color scheme. Cool that they can load soundfonts but I'm not sure how much I'd use that unless there are some really good quality EP soundfonts out there. I guess I could make my own organ soundfonts, which might be useful for a keyboard that doesn't have a clonewheel.

Aesthetics aside, from a functionality perspective, I prefer the higher contrast of the new black buttons on a blue background to the old black buttons on a black background, which is always a pain in less than ideal lighting conditions.

 

Yes, there are some very nice EP--and AP--soundfonts out there. Trying to do an organ soundfont is basically as problematic as any rompler-style organ. I'm not sure you'd end up with anything better than the sampled organ patches already available on the Dexibell. They're adequate, for what they are. 

 

7 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

I am interested in the Numa X Piano...It's great that it has aftertouch and I am curious about the new keybed and the new design of aftertouch sensor (using the hammer rather than the bottom of the key).

Somehow I had missed that these models have aftertouch! Nice to see another AT option. (Though personally, I tend not to care about it in a hammer action board... unless maybe it was going to be my only board, or I was lacking it in my companion board.) I'm not sure what I think about triggering it from the hammer. It seems like it would be a less "direct" manipulation, but in practice, that might not matter. And I do see where it might address the issue that, at least on some boards, an AT strip seems to alter the key landing in a way that makes it feel less natural for piano.

[Noah DC]

8 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

I am interested in the Numa X Piano but have no idea how long the wait will be. Any word on that? It's great that it has aftertouch and I am curious about the new keybed and the new design of aftertouch sensor (using the hammer rather than the bottom of the key).

 

Sweetwater told me early April, but Studiologic keeps pushing it back. 
 

FWIW, I haven’t seen it written anywhere that the Numa Player sounds are the same as the Numa X Piano’s - seems dubious since one is $2k and one is free, but honestly, who knows. 

[BenWaB3]

<<drawback said:

I've been interested in the NumaX since the launch, and there are listings for them but no product yet. The TP100 was a turn-off, but hopefully the new 110 will be... er... ten better. 

If you’re interested in the Numa X Piano I would recommend trying the free Numa Player app/vst as this has some of the core sounds from that piano. I have been trying them and have to say I am quite disappointed with the sounds. I personally much prefer the samples on my Yamaha CP88.>>

 

Yes, the EP's disappear almost entirely on the upper octaves. That being said, since it's a free app I wouldn't mind paying for some better sounds that are balanced through the spectrum. So if the free app is a teaser for some additional in app purchases (and the paid version took care of the latency) I'd still be okay with that.

[ElmerJFudd]

Based on the last CP update and recent YC update. I wonder how far out we are from the next CP update. 
 

 

[funkyhammond]

58 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Trying to do an organ soundfont is basically as problematic as any rompler-style organ. I'm not sure you'd end up with anything better than the sampled organ patches already available on the Dexibell. They're adequate, for what they are. 

 

I realize the limitations, I just meant that I could create my own set of favourite drawbar/perc/chorus settings and splits (using VB3-II) for just the occasional tune that doesn't absolutely require rotary. I can decide the tradeoffs I want to make instead of someone else deciding which tradeoffs to make.

 

58 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Somehow I had missed that these models have aftertouch! Nice to see another AT option. (Though personally, I tend not to care about it in a hammer action board... unless maybe it was going to be my only board, or I was lacking it in my companion board.) I'm not sure what I think about triggering it from the hammer. It seems like it would be a less "direct" manipulation, but in practice, that might not matter. And I do see where it might address the issue that, at least on some boards, an AT strip seems to alter the key landing in a way that makes it feel less natural for piano.

 

That's exactly it, my typical setup will be either having a single hammer action board or having that board paired up with an organ keyboard or controller (which typically will not have AT). I just love AT as a modulation source for synths, and even more so when I want to keep my left hand playing chords on a split sound.

 

There is this video (part of a series on the Numa X Piano) going into technical details about the new keybeds and the AT. It's in Italian, but you can turn on subtitles and auto-translate to English. He talks about the AT closer to the end. According to him, it actually yields superior response to the traditional AT below the keys and, as you say, has the big advantage of not affecting the key landing. 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, funkyhammond said:

I realize the limitations, I just meant that I could create my own set of favourite drawbar/perc/chorus settings and splits (using VB3-II) for just the occasional tune that doesn't absolutely require rotary. I can decide the tradeoffs I want to make instead of someone else deciding which tradeoffs to make.

Got it. And actually, the Dexibell probably does have a decent rotary effect you could apply to your samples.

 

Getting back to the AT sensor being triggered by the hammer instead of being directly triggered by the key, do you happen to know if they did the same thing with the velocity sensors, or are they still the rubber membrane switches directly under the key?

[funkyhammond]

7 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Getting back to the AT sensor being triggered by the hammer instead of being directly triggered by the key, do you happen to know if they did the same thing with the velocity sensors, or are they still the rubber membrane switches directly under the key?

 

I don't recall them mentioning the velocity sensors so my guess is that it would be the same as the TP100. They talked a lot about the design, construction, and feel of the keybed and then about the AT since it was something novel.

 

BTW, I just realized I left Crumar Seven off my list of candidates and you also didn't mention it. Any reason? It would be especially nice for stacking some light organ keyboard on top. But I am always weary about having to buy something without trying it first and not knowing how easy it will sell if I don't like it.

[AnotherScott]

Ah, yes, Crumar Seven, and also Viscount Legend '70s. I've never played them.

 

 

[funkyhammond]

4 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Ah, yes, Crumar Seven, and also Viscount Legend '70s. I've never played them.

 

The Legends 70s is on the heavy side, and I know nothing about it, so it's out.

 

I went back to the store and played the YC73 some more. The EPs are growing on me. The only likely deal-breaker is the keybed. There's the black keys issue but now I've also noticed (as a result of playing lots of 4-note chords/tremolos rooted on the black keys) that when forced to play some white keys towards the back, it's hard to generate force/velocity towards the back. I know, it's a portable keybed with short keys but the SV-2 played significantly better with the same chords, although the SV-2 (73) is 9 lbs heavier.  

 

As far as the 'black keys issue' is concerned, if anyone cares, the date stamp on this YC73 is: 08-2021

 

So, it turns out the store had the Dexibell S3 Pro on the floor. I liked that it was light and the action felt pretty good, but I thought the EPs were weak. The 'Dyno' patches seemed okay but I rarely use that sound. The couple of patches of more standard stage/suitcase Rhodes just sounded off, like the attack of the tines were separated/not blended well with the sustain portion. They just didn't feel right and weren't inspiring to play. One of the guys at the music store is apparently an expert on Dexibells but he's on vacation, so I may go back in a week and pick his brain in case something is off with the settings or non-factory stuff has been loaded in. I agree with you that the Hammond organ patches are actually pretty decent for being samples.

 

[AnotherScott]

34 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

So, it turns out the store had the Dexibell S3 Pro on the floor. I liked that it was light and the action felt pretty good, but I thought the EPs were weak. The 'Dyno' patches seemed okay but I rarely use that sound. The couple of patches of more standard stage/suitcase Rhodes just sounded off, like the attack of the tines were separated/not blended well with the sustain portion. They just didn't feel right and weren't inspiring to play. One of the guys at the music store is apparently an expert on Dexibells but he's on vacation, so I may go back in a week and pick his brain in case something is off with the settings or non-factory stuff has been loaded in.

 

I should have warned you... at least based on the Dexibells I played... the factory installed Rhodes sounds mostly kinda suck. ;-) BUT Dexibell has much better ones. Load them onto a USB stick and bring them next time you go there. Go to https://dexibell.com/prodotto/vivo-s3-pro/?lang=en/#sound-s3-pro and click the E.Piano pop-down and you'll see "EXP 70s EP" and "EXP 70s EP PLT." The PLT ("Platinum") ones are their best, but honestly, I think the non-platinum version still gets you most of the way there, while using much less memory. Or to put it differently, there's a much bigger difference between the stock Rhodes and the basic EXP 70s download than there is between the basic EXP 70s download and the PLT version. There are also some very nice soundfonts you can load in, and they load in just as easily as Dexibell's own sounds, no additional steps, no conversion necessary.

 

 

[LilyM]

I am wondering if anyone can tell me about the audio over USB in the YC/CP. Is it possible sand is it good enough to plug a laptop into running Gig Performer and various VSTs? Or is the audio only out.

[ElmerJFudd]

2 hours ago, LilyM said:

I am wondering if anyone can tell me about the audio over USB in the YC/CP. Would it be good enough to plug a laptop into running Gig Performer and various VSTs?

Yes it sounds quite good both recording the audio from CP88 to your Mac/PC and audio from AU/VST host back to the CP88.  Here are some facts from the manual…. 
 

“USB Audio receiving/sending capability for the instrument is a maximum 2 channels (1 stereo channel) at a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. The input signal from the USB [TO HOST] terminal is output via the OUTPUT [L]/[R] jacks (XLR type connector), the OUTPUT [L/ MONO]/[R] jacks and the [PHONES] jack.
The input level can be adjusted from the [MENU] button → “General → “USB Audio Volume.”
The audio signal output via the USB [TO HOST] terminal is identical to the audio signal output via the OUTPUT [L]/[R] jacks (XLR type connector), the OUTPUT [L/MONO]/[R] jacks, and the [PHONES] jack.
NOTE
The audio signal input via the INPUT [L/MONO]/[R] jacks is output only from the OUTPUT [L]/[R] jacks (XLR type connector), the OUTPUT [L/MONO]/[R] terminal, and the [PHONES] jack of this instrument, and is not sent via the USB [TO HOST] terminal.”

[kenheeter]

I have a Crumar Seven and a YC61.  They seem to be made for each other. The EPs on the Seven are fantastic, the new APs are very good. It's easy to set up a situation where the Seven can switch between its internal sounds and any of the sounds on the YC61, all the while using the YC61 as organ. This is a very flexible setup and you can route the audio of the Seven into the YC61 and deal with one set of outputs. Very slick. The midi implementation on the YC61 is one of the best I've ever seen.  Personally, I love the action on the Seven as well.  My Nord Stage 2 EX 76 has the TP100 and it feels very different to me than the Seven, which is also a TP100.  Not sure why. In addition to all of this, I can connect my iPad with one USB cable and have its audio as well. Cool!

[AnotherScott]

4 minutes ago, kenheeter said:

My Nord Stage 2 EX 76 has the TP100 and it feels very different to me than the Seven, which is also a TP100.  Not sure why.

 

Yet another example of the "same" action feeling different in different boards. I've also experienced big variation in how a TP100 can feel.

[LilyM]

4 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Yes it sounds quite good both recording the audio from CP88 to your Mac/PC and audio from AU/VST host back to the CP88.  Here are some facts from the manual…. 
 

“USB Audio receiving/sending capability for the instrument is a maximum 2 channels (1 stereo channel) at a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz. The input signal from the USB [TO HOST] terminal is output via the OUTPUT [L]/[R] jacks (XLR type connector), the OUTPUT [L/ MONO]/[R] jacks and the [PHONES] jack.
The input level can be adjusted from the [MENU] button → “General → “USB Audio Volume.”
The audio signal output via the USB [TO HOST] terminal is identical to the audio signal output via the OUTPUT [L]/[R] jacks (XLR type connector), the OUTPUT [L/MONO]/[R] jacks, and the [PHONES] jack.
NOTE
The audio signal input via the INPUT [L/MONO]/[R] jacks is output only from the OUTPUT [L]/[R] jacks (XLR type connector), the OUTPUT [L/MONO]/[R] terminal, and the [PHONES] jack of this instrument, and is not sent via the USB [TO HOST] terminal.”

Ok that’s great! Thanks for that info!!  The next question though is if when using the Yamaha USB interface is it good enough quality to get low  latency playing the VSTs

[ElmerJFudd]

35 minutes ago, LilyM said:

Ok that’s great! Thanks for that info!!  The next question though is if when using the Yamaha USB interface is it good enough quality to get low  latency playing the VSTs

Yes.  But I’ll test it with MainStage and my 2013 MBPro to how low I can set the buffer and share back. 

[funkyhammond]

On 3/26/2022 at 4:45 PM, kenheeter said:

 Personally, I love the action on the Seven as well.  My Nord Stage 2 EX 76 has the TP100 and it feels very different to me than the Seven, which is also a TP100.  

 

Can you describe the difference? I'm curious because I may consider the Seven at some point but don't like what I've generally read about the TP100 action. 

[AnotherScott]

5 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

Can you describe the difference? I'm curious because I may consider the Seven at some point but don't like what I've generally read about the TP100 action. 

 

They do vary, but I have it on good authority that you like at least some TP100 actions:

 

On 3/19/2022 at 10:05 PM, funkyhammond said:

it turns out the store had the Dexibell S3 Pro on the floor. I liked that it was light and the action felt pretty good

 

[CyberGene]

My YC73 came today. It was a B-Stock item from Thomann. The first impression is fantastic. I returned a YC61, so I knew what I was doing: testing the keyboard and how it works with the Rhodes, pianos and organs. I'm very impressed and happy and already know I made the right choice. The action is great for it!

 

However there is a problem... 😕 The depth knob for the effect 2 on the Key section spins without any resistance whatsoever. All other knobs have this nice resistance that makes it very precise and easy to dial the correct value. However here you suddenly don't get any feedback from the knob and can spin it to max value without expecting it...

 

I'm wondering what to do. Is it possible that this is something fixable? What creates the resistance in these encoders? Or should the entire encoder be replaced? I would easily just return it but the problem is there are no new YC73-s available until June. If it's an easy fix, I'm willing to do it, provided Thomann send me a spare part but I guess they won't be OK because it might void the warranty. And so they will just take it back and I will be without a stage keyboard for a few months...

 

P.S. What's very odd/funny is someone wrote "TWISTER" with pen on the packaging and I'm wondering if it was returned because of the same problem and they knew about it and referred to it as "twister" but didn't mention it. Because they only said "slight traces of use" which is the standard boilerplate for B-Stock items and ironically it doesn't have any traces of use, it looks pristine.

[Coker]

Yamaha pro keyboards have a long warrantee.  I would take it to your local authorized repair shop, have them diagnose the problem and order the part, then bring the board back to them when the part comes in.  Problem solved.

[M_G]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

My YC73 came today. It was a B-Stock item from Thomann. The first impression is fantastic. I returned a YC61, so I knew what I was doing: testing the keyboard and how it works with the Rhodes, pianos and organs. I'm very impressed and happy and already know I made the right choice. The action is great for it!

 

However there is a problem... 😕 The depth knob for the effect 2 on the Key section spins without any resistance whatsoever. All other knobs have this nice resistance that makes it very precise and easy to dial the correct value. However here you suddenly don't get any feedback from the knob and can spin it to max value without expecting it...

 

I'm wondering what to do. Is it possible that this is something fixable? What creates the resistance in these encoders? Or should the entire encoder be replaced? I would easily just return it but the problem is there are no new YC73-s available until June. If it's an easy fix, I'm willing to do it, provided Thomann send me a spare part but I guess they won't be OK because it might void the warranty. And so they will just take it back and I will be without a stage keyboard for a few months...

 

P.S. What's very odd/funny is someone wrote "TWISTER" with pen on the packaging and I'm wondering if it was returned because of the same problem and they knew about it and referred to it as "twister" but didn't mention it. Because they only said "slight traces of use" which is the standard boilerplate for B-Stock items and ironically it doesn't have any traces of use, it looks pristine.

 

Thomann has their own Service and Repair Center. Should be an easy fix and shouldn't take months or weeks.

Just call them, they will help you out. Always very helpful and friendly stuff on the phones.

[CyberGene]

Thanks, I contacted Thomann. Hopefully they will resolve the situation.

[pawelsz]

I once received SV-2 73 from Thomann also marked "Twister" on the box. It was the 2nd unit I received. The 1st unit had around one millimeter difference in keys level. 2nd one was better (around half the mm) but not perfect and still noticeable. Then, after I contacted distributor (they said it should be even better than the 2nd one), the 3rd unit was as they said checked for me by distributor, but seems to me they haven't plugged it in, only checked keybed, because when I received it, the unit had a broken overly noisy tube. After tube replacement made soon after by same distributor, the 3rd unit is working fine since 9 months. It took around 7 months of sending back and forth in 2020 and 2021 and had cost lots of patience but it's all fine now. I would say that contacting the distributor directly helped MUCH. Still don't know what "Twister" means for Thomann :).