Yamaha CP88/YC88 vs. the rest

[Stokely]

Hmm, that's a bit odd about the transpose. I have an external zone set up for my main organ patch on the B-3X and I'm pretty sure I didn't 'hardcode' the transposition.  Rather, at gigs I make sure to shift-transpose immediately to jump down a half step.   For learning songs it's much better to be in the normal key.  Not a deal-breaker though, as I'd probably just learn the song using my midi controller and software while sitting at my desk

For songs that need something other than what the clone has, I'd probably end up with one "external sound" preset that doesn't play any internal sounds (however that is easiest to do) and plays whatever is set up to respond to it back on the Forte.  Since that is likely the only thing I'll be doing midi-wise between the two, I don't really even need to be that flexible on the clone if it can't do it, the Forte can just not respond until I dial in a multi with a sound available on the matching midi channel.

And of course there are small modules coming out all the time (JX08 for example) that could fold in where 3 keyboards won't work (and they don't, for me.)  At the cost of yet another "thing" to balance with everything else, plus most of them would have a darn wall wart.

Interesting that you are considering letting the sk pro go.  I didn't mention it but it's also a contender for me.   I'm torn between spending more for something closer to a do-everything keyboard, or staying very focused and simple with something like the Mojo.  If I liked the Electro/Stage compact keys better I might save up for that since it has the Lead A1 in it, or return the Forte and get a cheaper weighted action to go with the stage compact...but I don't really like the springs on it.

[Charleston]

Why does the YC have the triple sensor (and the CP doesn't)?

Just curious. 

Sorry if this has been beaten to death already.

[AnotherScott]

6 hours ago, Stokely said:

Hmm, that's a bit odd about the transpose. 

 

I haven't tried it myself, but the transpose section of the YC manual says, "This setting does not affect MIDI output data."

 

6 hours ago, Stokely said:

 If I liked the Electro/Stage compact keys better I might save up for that

 

I'm not sure which you're comparing it to, but it doesn't really matter. While they are not the worst (they beat the low end Roland and Korg actions, for example), I'm pretty sure that most would agree that the Mojo, YC61, and SK Pro all have better feeling keys than those Nords. Unless maybe you swap lighter springs into it. Nord, Mojo, and SK Pro use the same basic Fatar action, but they do feel different, probably largely if not entirely because of the spring tension. YC has Yamaha's own action, it's above average, but it doesn't have the high trigger.

 

34 minutes ago, Charleston said:

Why does the YC have the triple sensor (and the CP doesn't)?

 

I'm not aware of any difference in the actions between the YC and CP of the same size. I believe the higher end NW-GH in the 88 is triple sensor, the lower cost and lighter weight BHS action in the 73 is not. Have you seen something to the contrary?

[Charleston]

3 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

I'm not aware of any difference in the actions between the YC and CP of the same size. I believe the higher end NW-GH in the 88 is triple sensor, the lower cost and lighter weight BHS action in the 73 is not. Have you seen something to the contrary?

 

Ooops! I should have said on the 88's. 

I am seeing NW-GH for the CP88, and NW-GH3 for the YC88, on Sweetwater and Yamaha's site. 

But now I see some others say the CP88 has NW-GH3.

[funkyhammond]

A nearby music store has a YC73 on the floor that I'm going to try in a couple of days and it's the only YC in stock in my area currently. The 73 is the size I would normally want for rehearsals/gigs but one thing has me wondering. Is the 3-sensor action of the YC88 actually better (ironically) for faster playing with organ and clav using a weighted keyboard than the regular 2-sensor action of the YC73? I'm not interested in the 61 key version.

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, funkyhammond said:

A nearby music store has a YC73 on the floor that I'm going to try in a couple of days 

 

You may want to bring a USB stick with the new update with you, in case their floor model hasn't been updated yet. They should be happy to update it for you, it's better for them too... but it couldn't hurt to make it as easy as possible for them to do it. Then you can be sure to hear the Studio rotary effect and have the available velocity tweaks available. (Having a PDF of the main and supplemental manuals on your smartphone couldn't hurt, either.)

 

4 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

Is the 3-sensor action of the YC88 actually better (ironically) for faster playing with organ and clav using a weighted keyboard than the regular 2-sensor action of the YC73?

 

I would doubt it. At least not because of the third sensor, which doesn't help play any faster, except maybe in some cases, faster same-note repetitions. My guess is that the 73 would be the better of the two for organ, just for being lighter feeling.

[funkyhammond]

8 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

You may want to bring a USB stick with the new update with you, in case their floor model hasn't been updated yet. 

 

Good idea, thanks for the suggestion. I already had asked if they can update it and they said they will look into it but I'll bring it with me just in case.

 

8 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

I would doubt it. At least not because of the third sensor, which doesn't help play any faster, except maybe in some cases, faster same-note repetitions. My guess is that the 73 would be the better of the two for organ, just for being lighter feeling.

 

 

I was exactly thinking about fast single-note repeats but I didn't think about the fact that the weighted action might be lighter overall on the YC73. Do you know for sure that that is the case?

[AnotherScott]

23 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

I didn't think about the fact that the weighted action might be lighter overall on the YC73. Do you know for sure that that is the case?

 

It's been too long since I've played the 88 to compare precisely, But the 88 is graded, and it definitely feels much heavier than the 73 toward the bottom. I don't remember enough to tell you quite how they compare at the top. By reputation, overall, the 88 is "heavy, but quick." By reputation, overall, the 73 is light. How heavy they feel and how quick they feel could conceivably be two different questions.

[funkyhammond]

1 minute ago, AnotherScott said:

How heavy they feel and how quick they feel could conceivably be two different questions.

 

Right, I guess it depends on what we mean by these terms. Heaviness is associated with weighted resistance (and slower key return) and quickness could simply mean fast retriggering. There is some relationship between the two. A lighter action will typically return faster and thus have less need for an in-between sensor for fast retriggering. Anyway, I should be able to at least get some sense of the "heaviness" difference by comparing the YC73 to some higher-end Yamaha digital piano they will likely have on the floor. And if it has triple sensors, even better. And this could all be moot because the 73 is really the form factor I'm looking for.  I was mostly just curious. If I really, really want an organ action in some situations, I will just have to bring a second keyboard to use as a controller.

[ludo]

1 hour ago, funkyhammond said:

 

If I really, really want an organ action in some situations, I will just have to bring a second keyboard to use as a controller.

Which keyboard do you have in mind for this ? Cybergene learned me it must have an old type midi out, not usb out...

I'm also still not shure which version i gonna buy. 88,73 or 61 ??? I play 50/50 organ,piano.

[AnotherScott]

8 hours ago, ludo said:

I'm also still not shure which version i gonna buy. 88,73 or 61 ??? I play 50/50 organ,piano.

 

Best for 50/50 piano organ usage varies a lot based on what you may be pairing it with, if anything.

 

I already talked about what I'd do if I were pairing it with the Vox, as you might be doing. 

 

If you'd be using it alone. for 50/50 usage (which is always a compromise one way or the other), between the 61 and 73, unless maximum portability was the priority, I'd be inclined to go with the 73, because I think 61 is really cramped for piano use. I'm also not totally thrilled with the organ experience of the 61 action to begin with, so the sacrifice is not as great as it might be.

 

(I've mentioned elsewhere that, while I am not by any means a high trigger purist, the positioning of the triggers on the YC61 bugs me a bit more because of the extra escapement-style resistance at the top of the YC61's travel and the fact that the organ release a bit lower than expected in its travel. So I found fast trills to be awkward, for example. But it's also possible that based on how you play, these things may not really matter.)

 

But there's one other big variable to the 61 vs. 73 comparison. Whether someone will find organ playing on the 73 to be better or worse than piano playing on the 61 pretty much gets back to the questions I asked earlier... "Do you use a lot of organ-specific technique in your organ playing (smears, slaps, squabbling, machine-gun repetitions, etc.)? Does your piano use call for a lot of subtle control over dynamics?" If you say yes to both, then you have to decide in which direction you're more willing to compromise. Or buy two keyboards,.

 

Some other 61 vs 73/88 differences someone might miss... The 73/88 comes with a half-damper sustain pedal, you'll have to pay $40 more to get that for the 61. The 73/88 pitch and mod sticks are parallel, the 61 has them perpendicular to each other, which I don't like as much, because it makes it awkward to bend a note AND introduce vibrato to it simultaneously. The 73/88 has XLR balanced outs, the 61 does not, which could require purchasing a direct box if you need one for the 61, and the added inconvenience of actually using it compared to just plugging a cable into the board.

 

As for 73 vs. 88, for me, portability mandates the 73. As I said elsewhere, I suspect the 73 generally is better than the 88 for organ playing, but it's not something I directly compared. It is a very nice action for piano playing, though, albeit heavier than I'd like toward the bottom. Though I have to say, with the new velocity adjustments, personally, I don't have any issue playing piano on the 73.

 

If you're thinking of buying two keyboards but one will be used mostly or only as an additional controller for the YC, then you have the question of whether you go with the YC61 plus some hammer action board, or the YC73/88 plus some non-hammer action board. There are lots of options with different pros and cons, which will be influenced by things like, what's your total budget? are there weight considerations? Is it still important for your YC to be as good as possible for your piano+organ use because you would still sometimes use it alone, or, once you had the two boards, would you pretty much always use it as part of a 2-board setup?

 

 

[ludo]

Thank you AnotherScott,

 

if some brand just should release a 61 waterfall controller...

[ludo]

Just ordered 73 version. delivery tomorrow.😁

[funkyhammond]

12 minutes ago, ludo said:

Just ordered 73 version. delivery tomorrow.😁

 

I think you're making the right decision.

 

Fortunately, I already have an old Nord Electro 2 61 that I sometimes still use as a controller. It doesn't have a high trigger point option though, so I may eventually look for something inexpensive that does. 

 

And having had experience gigging with that Electro 61 many years ago, I agree with AnotherScott that a 61 is impractical unless you are definitely pairing it with another keyboard that is at least a 73. There were times when I just wanted to bring a single board to a rehearsal/jam/whatever and I was kicking myself for not having gotten the 73 size (which was semi-weighted in the case of the Electro). 

[AnotherScott]

1 minute ago, ludo said:

Just ordered 73 version. delivery tomorrow.😁

 

Congrats!

 

13 minutes ago, ludo said:

if some brand just should release a 61 waterfall controller...

 

Closest, with current/new gear, would probably be Numa Organ 2 even though you'd only be it as a controller. But other non-hammer actions can still be quite good for organ, even if not waterfall, and they could be a lot cheaper.

 

Getting high trigger is also tricky, I think that Numa only does high trigger internally, and not over MIDI, though I"m not 100% certain. Cheapest boards that I know of that would send high trigger over MIDI are probably Roland VR-09 and Kurzweil SP6-7. I think the cheapest waterfall that sends high trigger is probably Hammond XK-1C. VR-09 and SP6-7 would also give you VA synth, which is something the YC doesn't have. The VR09 synth has very a nice iPad editor. I'm not sure to what extent the SP6-7's editors give you control over its VA synth functions.

 

But you might just want to save a bunch of money and get a cheap basic controller. If 49 keys will do, the Samson Graphite 49 is small and light, has a nice feel, has aftertouch, and I'm pretty sure you could use its 9 sliders to control drawbars on the YC, so you'd have access to both upper and lower drawbar sets simultaneously. No waterfall or high trigger, but still might well do the trick.

[ludo]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

But you might just want to save a bunch of money and get a cheap basic controller. If 49 keys will do, the Samson Graphite 49 is small and light, has a nice feel, has aftertouch, and I'm pretty sure you could use its 9 sliders to control drawbars on the YC, so you'd have access to both upper and lower drawbar sets simultaneously. No waterfall or high trigger, but still might well do the trick.

Ok, but since i'm not interested in playing dual manual organ and  so i dont have use for a second drawbarset (on the Samson), for example: is Roland A49 a better choice ?

I like to play non organ  bass sounds such as bass guitar or synthbass whith my left hand and organ sounds only whith my right hand on the upper manual, and Rhodes,piano, or DX, etc... on the right splitted YC73 keyboard.

[ludo]

Also, i own a nektar SE61 but it has only usb midi. Cybergene told me the YC can't accept Midi in via USB, only via the old Midi sockets.

But can i use a midi/usb adapter to get it working ?

[AnotherScott]

3 minutes ago, ludo said:

Ok, but since i'm not interested in playing dual manual organ and  so i dont have use for a second drawbarset (on the Samson), for example: is Roland A49 a better choice ?

 

I've never played the A49, so I have no opinion on how the actions compare. I see it has an expression pedal jack that the Samson lacks; that could conceivably be useful if the YC sees it as such while also allowing you to assign its own pedal(s) to something else. OTOH, it's more expensive, and lacks aftertouch, which is useless for organ or for driving any sound on the YC, but could conceivably be useful in the future if you end up wanting to drive a synth on your iPhone, etc.

 

1 minute ago, ludo said:

Also, i own a nektar SE61 but it has only usb midi. Cybergene told me the YC can't accept Midi in via USB, only via the old Midi sockets.

But can i use a midi/usb adapter to get it working ?

 

Not a regular MIDI/usb adapter, but rather a MIDI USB host adapter will do it, like the Kenton MIDI USB Host mk3. There are also some others that are cheaper, maybe down around $50 or so, though the Kenton is known to work well and it's a company you can actually get support from. Keep in mind that these kinds of adapters need power, so it's going to be another wall wart to plug in. Also, you did mention you have an iPhone, and that can also be used as a host adapter, though it might not save any expense since you need the various cabling or interface to get both your keyboards connected to it through its lightning connector.

[ludo]

Thank you AnotherScott, i learned something !

[jeffincltnc]

Just purchased a 3-month old YC88 from a church that is replacing it with a Montage and a tonewheel A-100.  Nice bargain hunt, and I'm stoked that the new rotary improvements of the 1.2 update in the YC88 will make up for the lack of Bosendorfer and upright from the CP88 I was trying to find and buy on the second hand market.  A good deal and a win for the find!  I'll pick it up this weekend.

[AnotherScott]

On 3/1/2022 at 9:41 AM, AnotherScott said:

Getting back to Aynsley's solution of adding a JX-08, I'm going to try putting my basically unused JP-08 on the YC73, to get some knobby synth into the system, indeed adding one of the main things a Nord Stage has over the YC. Since I only have the 73, the module will hang over a good amount, but I think I can attach it sufficiently strongly. Of course, it's not a full NS3 functional knobby synth replacement... it's only got 4-note polyphony and you can't apply the synth functions to samples, for example. But still...

 

Actually, I think I'm going to take the "SK Pro" approach to this and dedicate the "knobby synth" to mono synth purposes. Instead of the JP-08, I'm going to try the SE-02. As a mono synth, it sounds better (or at least more to my tastes); as a real-time knobby synth, its front panel controls are more easily usable; and a single JP-08 is really limited in its polyphonic application anyway. 

 

[CyberGene]

Has anyone used a Roland DP10 damper pedal with the YC? I have one that I use with my MODX6 and surprisingly it works fine when put in switch mode (and expectedly half-pedaling mode doesn’t work). I love the pedal for its non-slip rubber tongue and it would be good if I can reuse it for the YC61. 
 

What’s really odd is Roland pedals are reverse polarity to Yamaha yet the MODX works fine, however the sustain is reversed with the Studiologic switch-pedal. How come the MODX can cope with one reverse polarity pedal (Roland) and not with another (Studiologic)? 🧐

[AnotherScott]

When it comes to sustain pedals, the on/off "polarities" of Roland and Yamaha are identical, and the pedals are fully interchangeable. I think Dexibell, too. Whereas other companies are the reverse (though some boards can be set to use either kind).

 

However, when it comes to the continuous (or half) dampering sustain pedals, all bets are off. Then Yamaha and Roland are incompatible with each other, and I I think Korg is incompatible with either one of them.

 

For expression pedals, Yamaha and Korg are the same, but Roland is different.

 

So... no pattern!

[Fleer]

11 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Best for 50/50 piano organ usage varies a lot based on what you may be pairing it with, if anything.

 

I already talked about what I'd do if I were pairing it with the Vox, as you might be doing. 

 

If you'd be using it alone. for 50/50 usage (which is always a compromise one way or the other), between the 61 and 73, unless maximum portability was the priority, I'd be inclined to go with the 73, because I think 61 is really cramped for piano use. I'm also not totally thrilled with the organ experience of the 61 action to begin with, so the sacrifice is not as great as it might be.

 

(I've mentioned elsewhere that, while I am not by any means a high trigger purist, the positioning of the triggers on the YC61 bugs me a bit more because of the extra escapement-style resistance at the top of the YC61's travel and the fact that the organ release a bit lower than expected in its travel. So I found fast trills to be awkward, for example. But it's also possible that based on how you play, these things may not really matter.)

 

But there's one other big variable to the 61 vs. 73 comparison. Whether someone will find organ playing on the 73 to be better or worse than piano playing on the 61 pretty much gets back to the questions I asked earlier... "Do you use a lot of organ-specific technique in your organ playing (smears, slaps, squabbling, machine-gun repetitions, etc.)? Does your piano use call for a lot of subtle control over dynamics?" If you say yes to both, then you have to decide in which direction you're more willing to compromise. Or buy two keyboards,.

 

Some other 61 vs 73/88 differences someone might miss... The 73/88 comes with a half-damper sustain pedal, you'll have to pay $40 more to get that for the 61. The 73/88 pitch and mod sticks are parallel, the 61 has them perpendicular to each other, which I don't like as much, because it makes it awkward to bend a note AND introduce vibrato to it simultaneously. The 73/88 has XLR balanced outs, the 61 does not, which could require purchasing a direct box if you need one for the 61, and the added inconvenience of actually using it compared to just plugging a cable into the board.

 

As for 73 vs. 88, for me, portability mandates the 73. As I said elsewhere, I suspect the 73 generally is better than the 88 for organ playing, but it's not something I directly compared. It is a very nice action for piano playing, though, albeit heavier than I'd like toward the bottom. Though I have to say, with the new velocity adjustments, personally, I don't have any issue playing piano on the 73.

 

If you're thinking of buying two keyboards but one will be used mostly or only as an additional controller for the YC, then you have the question of whether you go with the YC61 plus some hammer action board, or the YC73/88 plus some non-hammer action board. There are lots of options with different pros and cons, which will be influenced by things like, what's your total budget? are there weight considerations? Is it still important for your YC to be as good as possible for your piano+organ use because you would still sometimes use it alone, or, once you had the two boards, would you pretty much always use it as part of a 2-board setup?

 

 

Still, I’m a bit worried about the 73’s BHS action. Some not so positive threads on that one (as with the MODX8), forcing me to choose between 61 or 88. 

[AnotherScott]

If you can deal with the weight of the 88, I would prefer it, except possibly as I said, for its use for organ playing, but I'd always have another action in the rig to trigger the organ anyway. (Well, at least one manual of it!) But I can't deal with carrying that around. 41 lbs plus case is over my limit.

[pawelsz]

6 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Has anyone used a Roland DP10 damper pedal with the YC? I have one that I use with my MODX6 and surprisingly it works fine when put in switch mode (and expectedly half-pedaling mode doesn’t work). I love the pedal for its non-slip rubber tongue and it would be good if I can reuse it for the YC61. 
 

What’s really odd is Roland pedals are reverse polarity to Yamaha yet the MODX works fine, however the sustain is reversed with the Studiologic switch-pedal. How come the MODX can cope with one reverse polarity pedal (Roland) and not with another (Studiologic)? 🧐

 

http://www.motifator.com/index.php/forum/viewthread/442765/P15/

 

[funkyhammond]

12 hours ago, Fleer said:

Still, I’m a bit worried about the 73’s BHS action. Some not so positive threads on that one (as with the MODX8), forcing me to choose between 61 or 88. 

 

Can someone elaborate on that? I'm looking at getting the 73.

[drawback]

IIRC some were hearing the keys clacking, but that issue has been addressed by Yamaha and the newer models are better. 

[AnotherScott]

There is also the issue described at https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/cp73-black-key-issue though I haven't seen a problem personally, in my limited playing so far.

[Doerfler]

I have had my CP 73 for 6 months or so now and love it.