Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[stillearning]

I also agree that this side discussion regarding physics is interesting, useful, and civil. I was an acoustics major (piano minor) in college before dropping out to become a 'rock star'. A move I've come to regret some 40 years having passed.

 

And I'll be ordering my SS3 soon!

[TimA]

Hey learjeff,

Sorry if I came off defensive earlier. I can see you're the real McCoy. Having lived in Los Alamos since 1966, I created my own "rules for life". Which are.

A) if you talk to twelve different physicists in a day, you'll be unintentionally belittled twelve times that day.

B) if you talk to twelve engineers in a day you'll be intentionally belittled 12 times that day

C) if you talk to 12 technicians in a day you'll be 3 times unintentionally belittled, 3 times intentionally belittled, and have 6 pretty decent conversations that day

Once I asked my Dad what he did at the labs, and his answer was so mind-boggling and convoluted that I never broached the subject again.

I will most assuredly read your posts for any iota of insight I can glean, because I have an Eventide Harmonizer, and have seen the inside of that thing. It's like a supercomputer of a decade ago! While I'm playing through the presets I am blown away by the software programming that went into those presets as well(the processed sound is incredible through the SSv3 by the way), so I appreciate the science and engineering that goes into this equipment.I might be a little, well....dumb, but in my book if some engineer somewhere wants to be a world-class jerk, as long as he keeps pumping out this awesome equipment I'll be happy.

[Aspen]

Aspen, some more ss questions for you. Most everywhere I gig, the stage area where I set up, is usually small so the amp would have to be directly behind me or on either side of me. Not "several feet back" as I believe you have suggested. That said, would the ss have to be tilted either against the wall or raised up on an amp wedge or something similar, for me to hear all the benefits, the "bloom", as you call it? Also, what special kind of cords/cables do I need to go from either a mixer or directly from my keyboard, to the ss inputs, to eliminate any possible hum/extraneous noise, that you said the ss tends to amplify more than conventional powered speakers and/or keyboard amps? Again, Thank you kindly, for all your help/info.

 

"IMPROVING THE BLOOM"

Several little trick can improve the dispersion, leaning it back against a wall is one, if no wall then a small piece of wood or whatever is handy under the front of the cab can tilt it back too and improve projection.

 

Lifting it up off the floor on a chair will noticeably reduce bass response, so unless you have a sub and sit it atop that, I do not recommend that.

 

Ideally it is best just tilted back against a wall, or better tilted back in a corner (even if your KB is not located in that corner).

 

There have been several SS3'ers who have posted of their "improve the bloom" solutions here on this mega thread that work well for them....here are some I found as I searched back. Can't take you right to the exact post, so you'll have to scroll down the page to see the picture.

 

1) Bring your own "fold up corner" or baffle. This approach will also defuse the side speaker from offending the other band mates sitting close to you on either side, there are 2 shown on this page, one from spazzkey, and the other from (the musician formerly known as) B.J.Love, who also shows us his improved version on the following page 66: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2602284/64

 

2) BYO amp stand, as Dave Osoff shows us here on page 82, again scroll down to see the pix:

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2602284/82

 

3) Cornered, as shown by KC member "hardware" on page 82 in a VERY cramped space:

https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2602284/59

 

4) Maybe to most innovative approach I've seen was from Raymb1 who used the small amp stand, but simply turned the SS3 on it's side, which accomplishes two positive things; 1) now the side speaker is using the floor as a surface to reflect off, and 2) this keeps the Side (full wet) signal from offending the players on either side of you. I though Ray had embedded this pix on a page but I could find it, then I saw he had given us a link on Flicker to show how he uses it:

 

This still works real well because our Front speaker is a coax design (horn component is centered inside the woofer and so "time aligned and always in a good position) so you can turn it anyway you like and it doesn't change it's sound or dispersion.

 

However with a conventional PA speaker that has a horn/tweeter element usually placed above the woofer, the dispersion noticeably changes when placed on it's side.

 

"IT'S ALWAYS A CABLE"

It still amazes me after 50 years how many times a sound issue with my gear is traced back tot a cable. And while a frayed or partially compromised cable or connection (male or female) can be somewhat adjusted in a traditional stereo thru Gain and EQ levels available on the amp or mixer, this is not so with CPS because of it's unique electronics.

 

CPS has a special electronics that begin with "encoding" the Left and Right signals by putting them "out of phase", or against each other, to filter out the "SUM" (mono, or L+R) and "DIFFERENCE" (the unique or widest parts of your stereo FX, or technically L-R). These become our Front and Side signals, which are then reproduced by transducers placed physically out of phase (90 degrees off axis to each other).

 

This means for the CPS circuit to "do it's magic", these signal integrity of the L&R need to be "equal". If one is a bit weaker than the other, bad things can happen, not the least of which the CPS 3D image will be compromised.

 

So usually when I've had a distortion or "no stereo" complaint here and off this forum the first thing I advise it to try another source with a second set of cables. I usually suggest a CD or MP3 player with a mini TRS to dual 1/4" phono cable so I can test thew source and the cable integrity at the same time.

 

I have fou9nd that 99.9% of the time we discover the SS3 is working just fine, and the problem lies with th source (some KBs can sum to mono in their master set up menu), OR far more often the issue is with one of the cables being weaker that the other (read; old, worn out!)...and these are cables that could have been working fine in their old setup. The problem then was solved with a new matched pair of stereo signal cables.

 

Now while I can't knock those $100 Monster cables, I do not hear any difference between those and say a decent inexpensive pair of professional HOSA cables, which I use all the time. Albeit the connectors or wire may not last as long as the "high priced spread" if you are hard on them, a new set of either should eliminate any cable related issues.

 

I don't want to start an off topic side thread here about cheap vs expensive cables, I just want to make the point that substitution with any new set should suffice to trouble shoot an issue with SS3 hum, distortion, or non-stereo issues.

 

That said, a wise engineer once said this about "miracle cables" that "improve your hearing" for 100x the cost of ordinary cables: "when they start making wire that ADDS gain, then I'll start believing in $100 cables".

 

His point being that while cables can be "sub par" and LOSE gain or frequency repose, they have no ability to ADD anything! So this is easily measured, and most pro cables you buy from Sweetwater will be just fine.

 

One last though that came to me as I scanned this thread for those picture links above (like 45 minutes of re reading!), you know you've got a historic mega thread going when when several others who've been here from the start are answering these many newbie questions faster, and better than I can (BTW, THANK YOU!), and also when one of our frequent posters here has had a name change over the many months we've been discussing SS3!

 

[MotiDave]

anyone have any video of the SS3 competing for air in a kickass rock band?

 

I'm not overly worried about large venues where I always send to FOH anyway. If I can hold my own w/o FOH in a rehearsal space with my ear splitting guitar, drum and bass pals, i'll be good to go.

 

I'm not keen on schlepping a second cabinet for bass either, to be honest. But the enthusiasm for this product is unlike any I've seen on this forum. maybe I get a sub with wheels...

 

(hands down my favorite functional feature of my KC550

[Brettymike]

Imagine an SS3 Beast with say a 12" main driver ...Stone the Crows, it would be a killer!!!

Or 2x12" or 15" etc. , the possibilities are staggering...

Brett

[Doerfler]

 

I'm not keen on schlepping a second cabinet for bass either, to be honest. But the enthusiasm for this product is unlike any I've seen on this forum. maybe I get a sub with wheels...

 

(hands down my favorite functional feature of my KC550

 

you could try using the KC 550 as a sub, this is all uncharted territory. No one was using a SS3 with a bass amp a year ago.

[timwat]

I'm not keen on schlepping a second cabinet for bass either, to be honest.

 

I wasn't at first either. My first thought was, "Well, this defeats half the purpose of going to one 40 lb. amp instead of the two 30 lb. powered speakers."

 

That's why I chose to go GK MB 112. Despite the spec sheet saying 30 lbs., it really schleps light as air.

 

And you know what? Every time I gig the two speakers, it makes it worth the inconvenience.

[I-missRichardTee]

While many things, including aspects of music can be subject to scientific experiments; very clearly, science is not music. Music is beyond the realm of science. There are aspects of cooking, for God sakes, that are beyond science. Yes, you can measure amounts of ingredients, of temps etc, but cooking on a higher level, is called an art, because it transcends science.

This is analogous to music as well.

Musicians have a unique gift/ talent. Some scientists have musical talent, but precious few ( if any ) scientists can compete with even my talent for music.

All of this to say, it is much simpler, and more effective, to listen to this speaker, and be done with it.

Regardless, recipes using actual measurements are extremely useful for those learning to cook. And while it may be simpler to try something and then move on, isn't it helpful to suggest things to try that haven't been mentioned, and give reasons for it?

 

Frankly, if the best advice is "try it and move on," then there'd be a lot less discussion on this forum.

 

Regardless, feel free to ignore my posts. I've learned things from you, but if you feel you have nothing to learn from me, that's fine. Meanwhile, this is a free forum, and as long as we're all being polite, there's no harm in discussing all aspects of the subject. We'll be up to 100 pages soon, it's certainly not all interesting to everyone.

 

I am sorry LearJeff, I learn from your posts too. I meant no personal attack. I was maybe defending a man who requires no defense, the creator of this new speaker technology.

I may have overstepped the point of this thread.

You see, though, science and what shall I call it, "instinct", "intuition", "science and religion" - or reason vs feeling, Objective vs subjective, have been entangled in endless dispute, "forever";

I hitched into that side of it, extending beyond the topic a tad.

In my defense of defending Aspen's creation, I felt you were a bit overly enthusiastic in your words .

A balance is sought here, and I apologize to you Learjeff, for crossing an undefined line.

Ironical though: Actually that sort of makes my point.

The "point I crossed" is NOT science, is it? It is subjective, yes?

There is no definable, non subjective point where Tee and Learjeff can agree on. It is subjective, involving feelings, and respect for the other guys feelings. Again, I do apologize.

[I-missRichardTee]

Also, we may be mixing topics in this very long thread.

 

Tee's general thesis may certainly apply with regard to playing music - although I have benefited so much from a good grounding in music theory, at some point passionate playing transcends careful mode choices and "correct vs. incorrect" note choices.

 

"To play a wrong note is inconsequential. To play without passion is inexcusable" - Beethoven

 

BUT - we're not primarily talking about playing music here. We're talking about how an amp does the things it does, which is squarely in the domain of electronics and physics.

 

If no one ever studied and analyzed equipment, Kurzweil would have never developed the K250 for Stevie Wonder, Fender would have never produced the Precision Bass...and Aspen may have never developed the SpaceStation technology. We'd never have the Line Array. We'd never have the planar speaker.

 

And if you took away science from equipment threads, we'd never have the Hammond tone wheel organ. Which means we'd never have had the VR-09. Which means we'd never have all those wonderful long arguments on this forum. Which would mean I'd have no life purpose.

 

Don't take away my life purpose. Don't remove science from equipment threads.

 

Nice self deprecating, healing humor!

As a boy, with no support from parents, and a chemistry set from I forgot who or whom, At age 8- 10, I showed remarkable inclination towards chemistry... aka I had a fairly strong ( not as strong as for music or BSing!) inclination for science.

later music took over my being, and science was forgotten.

So I am not anti intellectual nor anti experimental aka one of the prime activities scientists engage in. However "at the end of the day" it's not the stats, measurements, qualitative or quantitative analysis, but very natively, The Sound that I go with.

So pardon me, my bias is showing!

[MathOfInsects]

"Music" is not science. Sound, though, is....

[Aspen]

Aspen, now for my most important question. When is the slow boat from China going to arrive so SW can get it out to me?

 

OK, been saving the JBJ[45vews for many of you, so here you go: shipment...last Thursday so they should be shipping all the ,amy back orders mid weeIHI probably Wednesday or Thursday! And, this was a Triple order, so they should have enough to l

 

ALL nackorders alasying untll the next shipment comes in aLate June!

 

 

excellent news, Aspen, (I think)

your spell check needs spell check

 

Sorry about that, fell asleep last night before I finished that post, I must have inadvertently hit send as I was really exhausted. I saw that in the morning and made the corrections....very embarrassing.

 

Had a real bad weekend dealing with my wife, who fell and re injured her spine Friday. I spent most the day and night in the emergency room w/ her. She now has 4 fractured vertebrae and can't move much...so we haven't slept much since Friday.

 

I missed a gig Sunday at the Lighthouse with a 18 piece jazz band and Geoff playing his SS3...sorry Geoff...I was really looking forward to that! But it's been touch and go these last few days and not much sleep as she's in extreme pain with not much I can do. But today we made some progress and she's upright and able to walk a bit with a walker. Spinal injuries are a real bitch, it's gonna be a long slow recovery and everything else has kinda been on hold since Friday.

[MathOfInsects]

Sorry to hear, Aspen. Sending many good thoughts your way.

[Brettymike]

Hey Aspen , I am very sorry to hear about your dear Wife's fall and nasty injury , sending her - and you - Best Wishes for a speedy recovery ASAP from N.Z

Brett

[jerrythek]

Aspen: Hope she heals up quickly/without issues.

 

Jerry

[Aspen]

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

OK, now regarding Learjeff compulsive "need to know", and subsequent thesis on what you are hearing and why it works for Tim and me (when in theory, it shouldn't), albeit without Learjeff ever actually ever hearing ONE SS3 much less TWO, I can respond to a few of his excellent "points of reflection".

 

First off, to answer his inquiry with regard to the spacing distance between the top Side and the bottom Side speakers (in the inverted array), I believe it's roughly about 30". That's about twice the distance as if they were stacked "normally", and as such I believe he would agree this increased distance minimizes any poyential phase cancellation effect.

 

However, when stacked "normally", then the Front speakers would be separated by about 12", and THAT would certainly adversely compromise their sonic output. (and perhaps much moreso than spacing the Side speakers 12"apart and/or inverting them and spacing them even further).

 

Considering that the SS3's Tri-Amped Front speakers do the heavy lifting, and carry the main weight of the overall sound quality of any instrument and vocal you put thru the SS3 system(s), my suggestion to stack them upside down is primarily to keep the Front speakers as close to each other as possible and in so doing minimize any loss there. BTW, Tim is not playing EP patches in a band situation, but rather is using his "dueling SS3s" as a PA for mainly voice and guitars. So intelligibility is a prime directive in this application, and keeping these Front speakers as close as possible is the right thing to do, from an acoustics point of view.

 

This brings to mind one of the great signatures here on this thread (forgive me for not having the time to research and credit the author); "the main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing" (or something like that). Well the MAIN thing here is to keep these two Front speakers happy...and closer together accomplishes that.

 

But Learjeff asks a great question; does not inverting the two Side speakers, and spacing them so far apart "compromise" their sound?

 

Well as I have already said, and as Tim has reported, IMHO not so much. Life is full of compromises and trade offs, but in this case, it is the better of two evils, or as Spock used to say; "for the good of the whole'!

 

Learjeff recites some good acoustical physics theory here, with which I have no argument. Yes, there is that possibility that we'd get some "cancellation" effect by inverting the two Side speakers, and technically speaking putting these speakers out of phase (again!). However much less so when they are spaced 30" apart, as opposed to stacking them closer if both were upright

 

And also, phase cancellation issues are really more an issue in the LF range...where the waves are bigger. But "on the whole" any loss in the LF region for these Side speakers is kind of a "mute" point (sorry, couldn't resist), as there is very little LF information IN the "difference" signal, and also there is little LF efficiency created in an open baffle system.

 

Then also, if you listen to your Width control "full up", you know this is an unnatural sound that is high in distortion, as it is JUST the far left and right parts of the stereo effect. It's kinda like how the 100% "wet" sounds on your FX processor...a little "wet" or side signal goes a long way. And too much sounds like ass! So again, not much is lost by inverting them...heck, it may even enhance their weirdness! (also mentioned as a potential positive in Learjeff's developing thesis and/or critic of The Good Tim's inverted SS3 adventures)

 

Now then any amp design has some "trade offs", so sure there is something lost by inverting the two side speakers, but perhaps not as great as what's lost by spacing the Front speakers farther apart....and that's "the main thing"...another case where "less (loss) is more"!

 

Now, let's consider another positive aspect of inverting these 2 side speakers Learjeff may have overlooked (understandably as having never SEEN an SS3 in the flesh); balancing the surface cone area!

 

One of the compromises of using just one Side speaker in our "cost effective" SS3 is that the face of the Side speaker is much "flatter" sounding than it's rear side. Even though this particular Eminence 6.5" speaker has a relatively large voice coil with a 1" rear breathing port in the magnet so some HF information gets thru off the rear side, they certainly are not "perfectly matched" as they have been in my earlier designs when I used two facing Side speakers (to both get more power handling AND balanced cone frequency response). As mentioned before, we have acoustically modeled the side speaker to overcome some of the challenges of it's partially open baffle board design, but there is really no way to model "balanced" or "equal" response from one Side speaker with two VERY different sides. Obviously, they will always sound different.

 

However, by inverting the two SS3 Side speakers, we now have PERFECTLY balanced them on this regard (albeit not so with regard to phase as Learjeff correctly points out). Now we have a face and rear speaker facing BOTH left and right. And so they are now more even in response. IMHO, this in large part explains why we like the way the "inverted dueling Spacestations" sound; the Side speakers are better balanced, and that more than compensates any cancellations Learjeff (correctly) speculates may occur!

 

So in a nutshell, I think stacking them upside down offers these advantages, which far out weigh the disadvantages:

 

1) Improved performance of the two Front speaker systems by "reducing loss" and keeping them as close together as possible.

 

2) Minimal cancellation loss from the spaced Side speakers, in contrast by keeping them as far apart as possible.

 

3 Improved FR and dispersion from the Side speaker systems by balancing the front and rear surfaces of the two side speakers.

 

Again, measure all you want (and believe me I have!), and consider all the physics and theory you like...but in the end a good subjective listening is always required...and IMHO inverting them sound better. And while I openly admit I don't have all the answers why this is, I have now given you some of my best "educated guesses".

 

Now, Learjeff has made many good points "in theory", and I've enjoyed the intellectual challenges...but if I blindfolded him and asked him to pick out the better sounding stacked pair...I'd bet his ears would pick the inverted pair.

 

That said, I completely understand his curiosity, need for explanation, and struggle for closure...something that will ONLY happen when he someday gets to play with a real live pair SS3 for himself.

 

Meanwhile, I hope my replies here have helped him to find some peace over the best way to stack a pair of SS3 amps. And, I hope he, along with all of you posting and reading this dialog have enjoyed the discussion as much as I have.

 

Now shudup and go play some music, preferably some STEREO music, I gotta get some sleep!

[TimA]

Hey Aspen,

Sorry about the goofy comments regarding your post. I thought your predictive text was going haywire on you! Your wife (and you) are in my wife's and my prayers. We have a fairly significant list of people struggling with illness and conditions we pray for every morning on the way to work.....sadly we will add your wife to gladly pray for!

[Bernie9]

I am not knowledgeable about subs and need some guidance.

 

I have been using a sub from my old Z2200 Logitech speakers and it adds low end alright. I use my SS in OMB and band venues that do not require thumping bass. On the other hand. I demand quality sound with my various arranger keyboards. I get enough bass from my little 8 inch woofer, but can I do better quality wise?

 

I am considering the GK MB110 and the Behringer B1200D, as those two were mentioned in this great but large thread.

 

I am leaning toward the GK as I don't play large gigs and it has a better name and, more importantly,a better tone shaping capability. The Behringer has been unofficially endorsed by Aspen and had more power, though bigger and heavier.

 

I don't know how important the features of the newer subs are, and there are no dealers around me.

 

Any comments will be appreciated.

 

Bernie

[JeffLearman]

Aspen, that's a good summary. I agree that keeping the front facing speakers close together is a good idea; that was my first reaction when someone mentioned using a pair.

 

I'd still recommend that anyone experimenting with stacking them that way should try reversing left and right cables for the top unit. The result when not reversing them is more complex, and for that reason might be more pleasing (especially to someone like me, who prefers image complexity to image accuracy, in my keyboards). But it would also vary more depending on the location details and the characteristics of the venue. It's not a "try it once, pick what's best, and forget about it" kind of thing; results will vary pretty dramatically.

 

I also suggest that results will vary pretty dramatically when using it on its side. I can see how that would solve a number of problems, but it would also rely a lot on room asymmetry to deliver a stereo image.

 

In any case, folks, I ignore the ad hominem arguments and focus on the subject, and no offense taken where none is meant, so no worries there. It's a forum; we say what's on our minds, and that's how it works. Hopefully we try to have a little empathy too. If the one without sin casts the first stone, it sure won't be me.

[Slats8]

I am considering the GK MB110 and the Behringer B1200D, as those two were mentioned in this great but large thread.

 

Like Bernie, I am considering these two units as well and would welcome any feedback. What is the difference between the Behringer, which is advertised as a "Sub", and the GK, which is advertised as a "Bass Combo Amp."

[HAMEGZ]

I am considering the GK MB110 and the Behringer B1200D, as those two were mentioned in this great but large thread.

 

Like Bernie, I am considering these two units as well and would welcome any feedback. What is the difference between the Behringer, which is advertised as a "Sub", and the GK, which is advertised as a "Bass Combo Amp."

 

 

Well I can think of one advantage for the bass amp.

 

If the SS failed during a gig, you could plug into the bass amp and finish the gig(or like I did, forget to pack the SS).

 

you can roll off the mids and highs on the bass combo and obtain a quasi roll off effect.

[timwat]

The Behringer is a true subwoofer with a built-in high-pass filter (I think the crossover frequency is fixed, but not sure).

 

This means signal flow is Stereo outs -> Behringer -> SS, and that means the SS is ONLY being sent the high-passed HF and MF content, meaning it doesn't work as hard to reproduce the LF content the subwoofer is amplifying. Downside is it's heavier, and requires some more cabling.

 

The GK is a compact bass combo. Signal flow is Stereo outs -> SS -> GK, and this means both amps are reproducing the full range signal. I roll off the highs and mids on the GK, and use the GK as a mono DI to FOH. Downside is it isn't technically discrete - you have frequency overlap, and this means the SS still has to reproduce the full range signal. Upside is it's lighter, only requires one cable, provides a summed mono to FOH - and in the unlikely case of complete SS failure, you have full-range backup amp (sort of...it's still a bass combo amp).

[theGman]

Aspen, thanks for wading through these left-brain questions.

 

Listening to music/your speakers in particular is a right-brain activity, and trying to back up and do the left-brain math shows me that you have a lot of "teacher patience"

 

Just listening should be enough.

 

Next, explain the emotion of love in writing...

 

I know the feeling: In my ceramic tile showroom most people look at, say, a hand painted mural and say how nice it looks, but every once in a while some (always a) guy will look at that same mural intently and eventually ask..... "are those tiles 11 7/8 or 12 inches?

 

And the twain shall never meet...

 

Some things are better done live, in real time.

 

 

[Slats8]

The Behringer is a true subwoofer with a built-in high-pass filter (I think the crossover frequency is fixed, but not sure).

 

This means signal flow is Stereo outs -> Behringer -> SS, and that means the SS is ONLY being sent the high-passed HF and MF content, meaning it doesn't work as hard to reproduce the LF content the subwoofer is amplifying. Downside is it's heavier, and requires some more cabling.

 

The GK is a compact bass combo. Signal flow is Stereo outs -> SS -> GK, and this means both amps are reproducing the full range signal. I roll off the highs and mids on the GK, and use the GK as a mono DI to FOH. Downside is it isn't technically discrete - you have frequency overlap, and this means the SS still has to reproduce the full range signal. Upside is it's lighter, only requires one cable, provides a summed mono to FOH - and in the unlikely case of complete SS failure, you have full-range backup amp (sort of...it's still a bass combo amp).

 

Thank you for your feedback Timwat - just what I needed to know. I think I'm leaning towards the Behringer but based on your explanation, it sounds like if I run a cable from sub-out on the SS to FOH it will only be sending HF and MF, correct?

[timwat]

Thank you for your feedback Timwat - just what I needed to know. I think I'm leaning towards the Behringer but based on your explanation, it sounds like if I run a cable from sub-out on the SS to FOH it will only be sending HF and MF, correct?

 

Yes, since the Sub Out on the SS is a summed, mono aggregate of its L and R input signals, you'd only be sending summed, mono HF and MF.

 

But I think the Behringer also has stereo XLR direct pass throughs - which means you can send FOH a full-range L and R signal from the Behringer, not the SS. Take a look at the back panel online, I think that's how the guys who went Behringer are doing it.

 

- tim

[Jazzmammal]

I missed a gig Sunday at the Lighthouse with a 18 piece jazz band and Geoff playing his SS3...sorry Geoff...I was really looking forward to that!

 

Geoff was doing the Lighthouse and you were coming too?? I'm less than a mile from there, I've gigged there and on Pier Ave too many times to count. If it's at all possible please let us know the next time something's going on around here.

 

Really sorry about your wife Aspen. My lady slipped on some stairs on Jan 3, broke her ankle and two leg bones in 5 places, had surgery and now has a plate and a bunch of screws in there. Her x-rays look like a construction site and she just started to walk (slowly) unaided about two weeks ago but she still can't drive. Life's a bitch sometimes.

 

Bob

[timwat]

Had a real bad weekend dealing with my wife, who fell and re injured her spine Friday. I spent most the day and night in the emergency room w/ her. She now has 4 fractured vertebrae and can't move much...so we haven't slept much since Friday.

 

I missed a gig Sunday at the Lighthouse with a 18 piece jazz band and Geoff playing his SS3...sorry Geoff...I was really looking forward to that! But it's been touch and go these last few days and not much sleep as she's in extreme pain with not much I can do. But today we made some progress and she's upright and able to walk a bit with a walker. Spinal injuries are a real bitch, it's gonna be a long slow recovery and everything else has kinda been on hold since Friday.

 

Aspen, I'm so sorry to hear this. I hope she's feeling a little better, and that you're able to wait on her beck and call to ease the burden a bit. Will be praying for very fast, uncomplicated healing and mending!

 

Tim

[Bernie9]

I thank you also and have the Behringer coming.

 

Bernie

[Danny Linguini]

The Behringer is a true subwoofer with a built-in high-pass filter (I think the crossover frequency is fixed, but not sure).

 

This means signal flow is Stereo outs -> Behringer -> SS, and that means the SS is ONLY being sent the high-passed HF and MF content, meaning it doesn't work as hard to reproduce the LF content the subwoofer is amplifying. Downside is it's heavier, and requires some more cabling.

 

The GK is a compact bass combo. Signal flow is Stereo outs -> SS -> GK, and this means both amps are reproducing the full range signal. I roll off the highs and mids on the GK, and use the GK as a mono DI to FOH. Downside is it isn't technically discrete - you have frequency overlap, and this means the SS still has to reproduce the full range signal. Upside is it's lighter, only requires one cable, provides a summed mono to FOH - and in the unlikely case of complete SS failure, you have full-range backup amp (sort of...it's still a bass combo amp).

 

Only thing I can add to this - just to clarify - is that the Behringer (and all other dedicated subwoofers) will only process the signal below a certain frequency. Sometimes that cutoff point is fixed, but on the Behringer it's adjustable between 70-150 hz. Wherever you set that High-Cut knob, nothing above that frequency will play through the sub.

 

Also, the Behringer has two-channel Thru outputs (THRU A and THRU B in the pic below) in addition to the high-pass-filtered outs (OUTPUT A and OUTPUT B), so you can send a full signal out from it to a FOH, for example, and/or 100 hz and up (regardless of where you set the High-Cut) to a smaller amp or PA like the SS3.

 

http://www.deejayladen.com/Content/Artikelbilder/2/23/239/239125_3_x.jpg

 

Thank you for your feedback Timwat - just what I needed to know. I think I'm leaning towards the Behringer but based on your explanation, it sounds like if I run a cable from sub-out on the SS to FOH it will only be sending HF and MF, correct?

 

Nope -- the sub-out on the SS is a full frequency mono output (combined L+R). OR you can send full frequency stereo out from the Behringer sub THRU outputs.

 

 

[Aspen]

The Behringer is a true subwoofer with a built-in high-pass filter (I think the crossover frequency is fixed, but not sure).

 

This means signal flow is Stereo outs -> Behringer -> SS, and that means the SS is ONLY being sent the high-passed HF and MF content, meaning it doesn't work as hard to reproduce the LF content the subwoofer is amplifying. Downside is it's heavier, and requires some more cabling.

 

The GK is a compact bass combo. Signal flow is Stereo outs -> SS -> GK, and this means both amps are reproducing the full range signal. I roll off the highs and mids on the GK, and use the GK as a mono DI to FOH. Downside is it isn't technically discrete - you have frequency overlap, and this means the SS still has to reproduce the full range signal. Upside is it's lighter, only requires one cable, provides a summed mono to FOH - and in the unlikely case of complete SS failure, you have full-range backup amp (sort of...it's still a bass combo amp).

 

Only thing I can add to this - just to clarify - is that the Behringer (and all other dedicated subwoofers) will only process the signal below a certain frequency. Sometimes that cutoff point is fixed, but on the Behringer it's adjustable between 70-150 hz. Wherever you set that High-Cut knob, nothing above that frequency will play through the sub.

 

Also, the Behringer has two-channel Thru outputs (THRU A and THRU B in the pic below) in addition to the high-pass-filtered outs (OUTPUT A and OUTPUT B), so you can send a full signal out from it to a FOH, for example, and/or 100 hz and up (regardless of where you set the High-Cut) to a smaller amp or PA like the SS3.

 

http://www.deejayladen.com/Content/Artikelbilder/2/23/239/239125_3_x.jpg

 

Thank you for your feedback Timwat - just what I needed to know. I think I'm leaning towards the Behringer but based on your explanation, it sounds like if I run a cable from sub-out on the SS to FOH it will only be sending HF and MF, correct?

 

Nope -- the sub-out on the SS is a full frequency mono output (combined L+R). OR you can send full frequency stereo out from the Behringer sub THRU outputs.

 

 

Yes all great inputs here guys, just one minor caveat; if passing the signal thru the B1200 to the SS3, then our sum is only full range FROM +100Hz and up (and sans 100HZ and below).

 

So I like that option on the ($299) B1200 to drive both the SS3 w/ hi pass filter set (fixed @ 100Hz)) AND also having a full range L&R for sending to FOH (which I'd guess is usually "summed to Mono anyway...but a least you'd be hearing 50Hz in the FOH.

 

That said, I must confess I drive my B1200 with the SS3 sub out (one simple 1/4" tp XLR cable) as most coming to APR to hear CPS stereo for the first time want to quickly hear the SS3 with, and without, an added sub....so this is just my in/out "demo friendly" A/B mode.

 

When I demo the SS3, I usually leave the sub OUT until the very end....so the listener hears ONLY the SS3 when evaluating. Funny thing is; nobody ever mentions "lack of bass"...probaby because they are so amazed at the CPS unique 3D stereo image that never varies (or collapses) no matter where they are in the room (this is very attention grabbing #:>)

 

Of course when I finally (and quickly) add in the sub...most everybody smiles and nods in approval...but that's the same reaction you see with any traditional HiFi or 5.1 system adding a sub. The sub addition is just icing on the CPS cake!

 

 

 

[Alan Steinberger]

If it's at all possible please let us know the next time something's going on around here.

Since you asked, I'll be at Typhoon (at the Santa Monica airport) this Monday with an aggressive big band. I'm sure you know what an acoustic challenge that room can be, what with the odd shape and all hard surfaces. If you feel like coming out, please say hi.