Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[Aspen]

Maybe I missed something,but I thought it was the sum of the same material of both left AND right out the front, and the different material out the sides (driver pointed one way, open back the other). So, turning it upside down would not matter.

 

You also get an "A" in Center Point Stereo, very well stated!

 

There is another SS3'r here (forgive me for forgetting his handla just now) that has great results placing his SS3 sideways to tone down the side speaker for his band mates in those tight spaces...another innovative approach for which I am most grateful.

 

When I first read that I tried it myself and wasn't that impressed but I kept my mouth shut because I thought :well, if it works for him...why not?".

 

But later he posted a pix and I saw he had it on a speaker stand so the down side of Side speaker was slightly elevated and reflecting off the floor...very Clever! (I had just set mine on the flat floor, and so closing off 1/2 the side system).

 

That was a teaching moment, for the "teacher"! Proving once again, we all have to keep an open mind, myself included.

 

If we all just stood around and theorized, very little would get done! I just LOVE the way you guys have embraced my CPS technology...and are thinking "outside the box". Don't worry about the nay sayers, trust your ears.

 

As another wise man once said; "if you're taking flack, you must be over the target"

[Aspen]

Aspen Thank you

So, leave the sub home, eh? And just a single SS can handle the bass?

 

Note this, a lot of guys talk about routing the left hand to a dedicated bass speaker

But having tried this, I find myself preferring the sound of just two stereo speakers

2 eons, or 2 k10's etc. The separate bass thing, while it seems it would be better, somehow I lose something with it.

 

I didn't exactly say leave it home, but rather maybe leave it in the car...then pull it out if the need arises. Actually, I like paring my SS3 w/ a sub, but for some the added weight and cost may not be worth the benefit, as the SS3 by itself sounds real good.

 

And IF you bring a sub, I think there is a big advantage to keeping everything "centered". So I have suggested either stack the SS3 on top or place it in front of your sub. One SS3'r posted a pix of his SS3 on a poleshelf 4' above the sub...that looked REAL cool and I bet it had great projection too.

 

But gain, if everthing comes from one central point, then the same sound you hear will be heard everywhere in the room,...making your monitoring optimum for both you, and the audience!

 

The main reason spaced L&R speakers do not sound that great, outside of the small sweet spot, is largely because they are NOT time aligned...and that creates anomalies and phase cancellations for 95% of the room...and NO seating postion ever hears the same sound, much less any stereo image.

 

CPS ha changed all that, our image maintains it's depth, uniformity, and CLARITY...no matter WHERE you are sitting in the room!

 

Some may call that "game changing", others are more cautious with their adjectives...no matter to me. IMHO the SS3 is NOT "just another amp"...but also, it certainly is not the cure for cancer either...I get that!

 

Heck, I just LOVED the way it soundrd the first time Drew and I fired it up...and I still feel like a kid every time I play thru it.

 

I used to try and give a scientific explanations...and I'd watch folk's eyes start to glazed over. So now I just say "it's magic" (which is what it actually sounds like!).

 

And when I see a good magic trick..I really don't to KNOW how it's done. I want to spoil it by "debunking it"...I just want to see it again ad BE AMAZED!

 

I think that's how most folk's here who have a SS3 feel...they just want the magic! Who CARES how it works. So, sit back and ENJOY IT! And if you don't haebe one yet, stop trying to debunk the "magic".

[Aspen]

The faster the windmills turn, the more wind there is. Therefore windmills cause wind. And rising hemlines cause economic market booms.

 

I like your Pretzel Logic...what key do you play that in?

[roygBiv]

Quick Question fro Aspen (or anybody else!)

 

I used to own a Fender Satellite SFX guitar cabinet - I was amazed how that with the built-in effects on that thing, you could get some really cool, 3D multidimensional sounds! Very hard to describe, almost like a ventriloquist "throwing sound", Very cool indeed. Startling even.

 

Anyway, based on that experience, the testimonials in this thread, and my love of your many fine products over the years (such as your GT MD1A mics), I placed an order for a SS3 last week at Sweetwaters.

 

My question - are you or will you consider offering some of the DSP effects you had in your previous SFX series? Alternatively, do you have any suggestions for effects that especially highlight the "3D" effect of your SFX technology?

 

I've started playing keys in a old-school ska/reggae dub band (think Skatalies, Jackie Mitoo, King Tubby, etc.). So, when my SS3 comes, I want to blow my band-mates mind with some cool effects (I'm playing a Roland VR09, cool instrument, with a Boss RE20 Space Ceho clone). I'm normally a guitar player, so I need to distract them while I get my chops together.... I mean they got songs in F#m, WTF?

 

Thx,

 

Dave

[agitato]

Aspen, some more ss questions for you. Most everywhere I gig, the stage area where I set up, is usually small so the amp would have to be directly behind me or on either side of me. Not "several feet back" as I believe you have suggested. That said, would the ss have to be tilted either against the wall or raised up on an amp wedge or something similar, for me to hear all the benefits, the "bloom", as you call it? Also, what special kind of cords/cables do I need to go from either a mixer or directly from my keyboard, to the ss inputs, to eliminate any possible hum/extraneous noise, that you said the ss tends to amplify more than conventional powered speakers and/or keyboard amps? Again, Thank you kindly, for all your help/info.

[rickzjamm]

Every time I play the piano & keyboard I feel connected, healed & even complete just like the first time; the SS brings this out even more. I know the music theory & some of the physics behind it & it's cool to be "aware"...

but I like the Aspen (the teacher & inventor who could school us all here) approach best - "magic". Well done maestro!

[SK]

FWIW - different kind of "gig report"... not my gig, but Sue played through the SS3 last night with the symphony at a fairly large cathedral. Very open area and high ceiling, almost like being outside.

 

I was seated closer to the back of the church, and the orchestra spanned most of the front wall. The SS3 was on the side of the church, very far left. The bizarre thing was not only was it audible, it sounded like the sound emanated evenly from the entire front wall behind the orchestra. I audibly couldn't pinpoint the source of the sound - hard to believe it was all coming from a small amp off to the side.

[hardware]

Exactly what I do.

I already know I am coming out in the FOH so my placement is not for me, but the guys I play with.

Instead of thinking about people directly in front of the stage I point it from Stage Right directly at the front mic.

Everyone out front that isn't in the QSC sweet spot still hear it fine and my mates love not having to pump me into the Sidefills.

 

I use IEMs (new 12 way stereo) for hearing the Guitar and bleed through some keys.

 

If you are getting tired of your gig, as some of us always end up working for money at times, and don't really care for the production, instead of buying more String Instruments of FX just buy an SSv3.

Now you will enjoy sucking more...

[TimA]

FWIW - different kind of "gig report"... not my gig, but Sue played through the SS3 last night with the symphony at a fairly large cathedral. Very open area and high ceiling, almost like being outside.

 

I was seated closer to the back of the church, and the orchestra spanned most of the front wall. The SS3 was on the side of the church, very far left. The bizarre thing was not only was it audible, it sounded like the sound emanated evenly from the entire front wall behind the orchestra. I audibly couldn't pinpoint the source of the sound - hard to believe it was all coming from a small amp off to the side.

I would've really enjoyed hearing that!!

[Doerfler]

Now you will enjoy sucking more...

 

exactly where I am right now.

[Tombsalley]

Gig with two units went well. Next time however, I will

Probably have the sub facing the same direction as the SS's

Being omni that shouldn't matter but, I think it sounded

Better with all speakers facing the same.

I had the SS's facing to the left on top the sub

With the sub facing forward.

 

[Manhunter]

Have had the SS3 for a few weeks now but most of the gigs since owning it have been on acoustic piano; usually this is nice but keep wanting to try out the new amp!!

 

I have now played a few gigs with the SpaceStation and am really pleased with it. A few Big Band gigs and a couple of smaller combos. Difficult to explain but the piano seems much clearer and more present with greater dynamics but without being too loud to my ears. The big band is loud but I have no trouble being heard or hearing myself.

 

Glad I took the plunge and shipped it over to the UK. Thank you Aspen for the product and great service!

 

I did have a bit of a shock yesterday - playing in a jazz sextet for VE Day celebrations. We played after a local dance class - sort of lessons + demonstrations with backing cd's and the lady teacher giving instructions using a mike and her own pa (the dancers also danced to the band). We went on for our final set then halfway through the first number my sound cut out - as the front line, acoustic bass and drums were still playing I assumed that the amp had blown!! However, soon realised that the dance teacher was packing up and had unplugged the band's power extension in error. What a relief - I don't think I could manage without the SS3 now!!

 

Dave

[spazzkey]

At a party gig last night the band was set against the back wall of a living room facing out across the room and through wide open sliding doors onto a deck - I ended up in the "stage" left corner next to the drummer - perfect opportunity to try out facing the ss back into the corner to create that "poor mans klipsch horn" as I think Aspen put it a ways back in this thread - well - I was underwhelmed - just didn't get the high end clarity (I was playing exclusively B3 through my sk1) and the highs were muted... didn't take long for me to turn back forward facing out of the corner... I realized later I could have spent more time adjusting eq's on both the ss and the sk1, (I messed with the sk1 eq a little, but no satisfaction there) but at that point it was sounding great and I couldn't be bothered to turn the ss around again and mess with it...

 

unrelated to that - I thought I was plenty loud sitting a few feet away from the ss and a couple of the partiers mentioned the organ sounded great - so it was interesting to hear later from our frontman who was stage right on the other side of the drummer that while he could hear me, he would have preferred louder...

[I-missRichardTee]

"he wisest engineer I ever knew, who was one of my mentors in audio engineering, once told me: "there are lot of things you can measure that don't matter, and there are a lot of things that matter that you can't measure".

 

Priceless words of wisdom that have many applications.

[I-missRichardTee]

While many things, including aspects of music can be subject to scientific experiments; very clearly, science is not music. Music is beyond the realm of science. There are aspects of cooking, for God sakes, that are beyond science. Yes, you can measure amounts of ingredients, of temps etc, but cooking on a higher level, is called an art, because it transcends science.

This is analogous to music as well.

Musicians have a unique gift/ talent. Some scientists have musical talent, but precious few ( if any ) scientists can compete with even my talent for music.

All of this to say, it is much simpler, and more effective, to listen to this speaker, and be done with it.

[wannjl]

Aspen, now for my most important question. When is the slow boat from China going to arrive so SW can get it out to me?

[Aspen]

Have had the SS3 for a few weeks now but most of the gigs since owning it have been on acoustic piano; usually this is nice but keep wanting to try out the new amp!!

 

I have now played a few gigs with the SpaceStation and am really pleased with it. A few Big Band gigs and a couple of smaller combos. Difficult to explain but the piano seems much clearer and more present with greater dynamics but without being too loud to my ears. The big band is loud but I have no trouble being heard or hearing myself.

 

Glad I took the plunge and shipped it over to the UK. Thank you Aspen for the product and great service!

 

I did have a bit of a shock yesterday - playing in a jazz sextet for VE Day celebrations. We played after a local dance class - sort of lessons + demonstrations with backing cd's and the lady teacher giving instructions using a mike and her own pa (the dancers also danced to the band). We went on for our final set then halfway through the first number my sound cut out - as the front line, acoustic bass and drums were still playing I assumed that the amp had blown!! However, soon realised that the dance teacher was packing up and had unplugged the band's power extension in error. What a relief - I don't think I could manage without the SS3 now!!

 

Dave

 

Thanks for the kind words Dave, glad you made to pond jump too!

 

All I can say about that dance teachers is; They shoot horses, don't they?

 

 

[saluluc]

Hi everybody !

I am new in this forum and write from Switzerland (my english is not verry well). I use the Spacestation Mk2 with a sub for my stage keys (Nord electro for Hammond sound and Yamaha S70XS) and have this question:

Anyone can tell me the difference between the old Mk2 and the new Spacestation V.3 ???

[Aspen]

Aspen, now for my most important question. When is the slow boat from China going to arrive so SW can get it out to me?

 

OK, been saving the Good News for many of you, so here you go:

SS3 shipment; left here last Thursday so they should be arriving and SW shipping back orders mid week, probably Wednesday or Thursday!

 

And, this was a triple order, our biggest yet. So they should have enough on the shelf to last thru to Gear Fest, or at least until the next shipment comes in late June!

 

BTW, I will be attending the Sweetwater Gear Fest in case you'd like to come hear one in person.

 

 

[jpst]

Good news for me in UK - SS3 just listed on Thomann site for pre-order, so I got my pre-order in!

[Doerfler]

Aspen, now for my most important question. When is the slow boat from China going to arrive so SW can get it out to me?

 

OK, been saving the JBJ[45vews for many of you, so here you go: shipment...last Thursday so they should be shipping all the ,amy back orders mid weeIHI probably Wednesday or Thursday! And, this was a Triple order, so they should have enough to l

 

ALL nackorders alasying untll the next shipment comes in aLate June!

 

 

excellent news, Aspen, (I think)

your spell check needs spell check

[TimA]

Aspen, now for my most important question. When is the slow boat from China going to arrive so SW can get it out to me?

 

OK, been saving the JBJ[45vews for many of you, so here you go: shipment...last Thursday so they should be shipping all the ,amy back orders mid weeIHI probably Wednesday or Thursday! And, this was a Triple order, so they should have enough to l

 

ALL nackorders alasying untll the next shipment comes in aLate June!

Are you inventing a new language to go along with your new technology, or was it just happy hour?

Tim

 

[JeffLearman]

The signal going into the side speaker is Left minus Right. One signal, not two. Shouldn't that mean that the side signal is the same on both sides?

Maybe I missed something,but I thought it was the sum of the same material of both left AND right out the front, and the different material out the sides (driver pointed one way, open back the other). So, turning it upside down would not matter.

Well, let's think it through.

 

The side driveer on the SS3 is open-back, facing left. When the voltage is increasing, the speaker cone will be traveling to the left. This increases the air pressure on the left, and decreases the air pressure on the right.

 

That means that the pressure change to the left side is the exact opposite of the change to the right side. There are various synonymous terms for this: 180 degrees out of phase, inverted, reversed polarity.

 

So, yes, it makes a big difference when you turn it upside down, it inverts the signal. Whether or how that's detectable depends on other things.

 

If you're using only one SS3, it would reverse the stereo image, all other things being equal, that is if the room were perfectly symmetrical. Of course it's not, so the actual results will be diverse, but the image will definitely be different. My guess is "very cool, either way!" (I'm a big fan of nontraditional stereo imaging and spacious sound.)

 

Tombsalley reports that it sounds great with two, one upside down, atop the other. That contradicts my expectations, so I gave it some thought. Here's what I think.

 

When you have two speakers, close together, with the signal to one inverted (which is what you have when you invert one SS3 and set it atop the other), what happens? Well, the lowest frequencies will cancel out dramatically. The cutoff frequency for this cancellation is a function of the distance between the centers of the two drivers. If that distance is zero (physically impossible), the cutoff frequency is infinite: the two cancel out completely.

 

Above that cutoff frequency, things get more complicated. You get a comb filter effect. Frequencies where the wavelength is double the distance get nearly 6dB louder. As the frequency rises, the signal strength decreases and hits nearly zero midway between that frequency and twice that frequency. [PS: this is an oversimplification, since it depends on where you're listening.] And then the cycle repeats. This might sound great on Hammond and Rhodes, but not so much on piano, if it was happening to the main signal.

 

But it's not happening to the main signal; it's only happening to the Side signal. In most cases, the Side signal has very little low frequencies (otherwise that sound would have serious issues when summed to mono.) I think that's what keeps the phase-reversal issue from causing serious problems.

 

I suspect the best test of my guess would be to use a sound that does have lots of low frequencies on the side channel, like Rhodes stereo vibrato (or any significant stereo vibrato). What I'd predict is that unless you reverse left and right cables on the top (upside-down) speaker, the bass will tend to drop out when the vibrato is panned far to either side.

 

That said, I like Rhodes stereo vibrato best when it IS messed with. The best cases I ever heard were when using a satellite cabinet that was vented to the back, and not placed in a traditional stereo setup. So, while the experiment might show a big difference between what's "theoretically best" and other options, the theoretically best won't necessarily be the favorite option. After all, we all love tube amps, despite the fact that modern transistor amps are "theoretically superior".

 

I'm not suggesting we ignore what our ears tell us. I'm suggesting we consider the possibilities.

 

For folks who don't want to think critically or apply what we know about the nature of sound to the SS3, feel free to ignore my posts. If anyone can point out errors in my arguments, I'd be delighted to learn from it.

 

[JeffLearman]

While many things, including aspects of music can be subject to scientific experiments; very clearly, science is not music. Music is beyond the realm of science. There are aspects of cooking, for God sakes, that are beyond science. Yes, you can measure amounts of ingredients, of temps etc, but cooking on a higher level, is called an art, because it transcends science.

This is analogous to music as well.

Musicians have a unique gift/ talent. Some scientists have musical talent, but precious few ( if any ) scientists can compete with even my talent for music.

All of this to say, it is much simpler, and more effective, to listen to this speaker, and be done with it.

Regardless, recipes using actual measurements are extremely useful for those learning to cook. And while it may be simpler to try something and then move on, isn't it helpful to suggest things to try that haven't been mentioned, and give reasons for it?

 

Frankly, if the best advice is "try it and move on," then there'd be a lot less discussion on this forum.

 

Regardless, feel free to ignore my posts. I've learned things from you, but if you feel you have nothing to learn from me, that's fine. Meanwhile, this is a free forum, and as long as we're all being polite, there's no harm in discussing all aspects of the subject. We'll be up to 100 pages soon, it's certainly not all interesting to everyone.

[timwat]

Also, we may be mixing topics in this very long thread.

 

Tee's general thesis may certainly apply with regard to playing music - although I have benefited so much from a good grounding in music theory, at some point passionate playing transcends careful mode choices and "correct vs. incorrect" note choices.

 

"To play a wrong note is inconsequential. To play without passion is inexcusable" - Beethoven

 

BUT - we're not primarily talking about playing music here. We're talking about how an amp does the things it does, which is squarely in the domain of electronics and physics.

 

If no one ever studied and analyzed equipment, Kurzweil would have never developed the K250 for Stevie Wonder, Fender would have never produced the Precision Bass...and Aspen may have never developed the SpaceStation technology. We'd never have the Line Array. We'd never have the planar speaker.

 

And if you took away science from equipment threads, we'd never have the Hammond tone wheel organ. Which means we'd never have had the VR-09. Which means we'd never have all those wonderful long arguments on this forum. Which would mean I'd have no life purpose.

 

Don't take away my life purpose. Don't remove science from equipment threads.

 

[JeffLearman]

I stack them with one set upside down using

A couple spacers I Made out of 2" x 1" this is in theory

Keeps time alignment.

Can you point me to the theory here? This isn't a challenge, I just want to understand.

[Tombsalley]

Sorry, it's more a suggestion than theory.

Something that Aspen suggested would

Keep better time alignment.

I came here more for general use

And live experiences more so than

To discuss the ins and outs of how

It works.not that I mind reading about it.

However,just looking for hands on use.

[MathOfInsects]

Nice done, LearJeff.

 

[JeffLearman]

Sorry, it's more a suggestion than theory.

OK, thanks.

 

If you wouldn't mind, what's the distance between the centers of the two side drivers, when stacked? If it's about a meter, then the cutoff frequency is around 225 Hz, though I'm not sure I'm figuring that correctly. I'm using a calculator for the distance between woofers based on crossover cutoff frequency, which ain't quite the same thing but should be in the ballpark.

 

(Thanks, MathOfInsects.)

[MathOfInsects]

Since they're stacked (that is, exactly parallel at the source), amplitude, reflection/refraction points and the timbral complexity of the sounds are going to matter as well. (A sine tone will sound pretty much like a sine tone, plus or minus dBs, especially if there are very few moments of attack or decay. A horn section is going to gain or lose energy in unpredictable ways, depending on the environment. Or rather, in predictably different ways in each environment.)