Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[I-missRichardTee]

Leland Sklar, a pal of mine and a world class bass player, told me this upon hearing the SS3 w/ and w/o a sub; "I hate subs". (Leland is not shy to comment...one of his most endearing features!)

 

But I understand his comment; too much "sub" @ 100Hz is not a good thing...and can overshadow the "above 100Hz information". A bass player wants a balanced LF response...and so their cabs are designed to be "flat" to 40Hz+. And if you add a sub, it's hard to keep it balanced...you need to be careful so as not to "boom the band".

 

Then also, this area under 100Hz is the bass players world...he carries the bottom for the band...and competing bottom makes for a mushy sounding band. The bass player is the star in the band for that region!

 

Happy band, happy life. And there is no Sub-stitute for a happy band!

 

Competing in the below 125 Hz region creates havoc, not just mushy!

Your words about Leland on subs, matches my experience with subs.. So far they suck for me.

Subs are OVER USED in todays hyped music. They are way too loud, from cars to clubs... awful. and likely not good for your health.

So with an old school sensibility ( anti sub guy - strictly Ray Brown, Chester Thompson, Chuck Rainey Willie Weeks Pino, Jamerson ) what DO I use to support drum tracks and left hand bass, which beat the tar out of systems ?

 

I own K10's a new G2 Eon 15, Bose and am interested in SS3.

This is for a one man band deal. I expect multiple speakers, and imagine experimentation is part of it. Not to mention laziness!

[Tombsalley]

Spacestation with the brhringer sub.

Sorry, in my opinion you should have

A sub.some gigs you can get away

Without but, not when you need to

Cover more ground. Honestly, if

you set

The balance to taste they sound good to me.

That's why it has a volume control.

With what you want to cover you'd be sorry

I believe without one. The B 1200d seems to be

A popular choice and is inexpensive and portable.

[Bif_]

The B 1200d seems to be

A popular choice

 

But everyone loves to hate Behringer.

[MathOfInsects]

Yeah, it's not the sub that booms the bass, it's playing in the lower ranges. I don't move my hands any farther to the left just because I have a sub. I just get to hear the best version of the patches I do play. Balance your rig right and you shouldn't be pissing anywhere near the bass player's lawn.

 

Anyway, nothing wrong with some rumble on a smear or a good thwonky Rhodes landing down there every once in a while...

 

(I DO, though, make a point to let the bass player know that the sub doesn't mean I'll be in his grill, and I check with him before we hit to ensure that he's OK with the balance. Musical politics...)

[Tombsalley]

I was mainly gearing my response to the

One man band idea where there is drums and bass

In the mix ALREADY. Yes if your in a band situation

And you don't want to compete or clash with

Other low freq.instruments then no sub could hold

merit. That makes sense to keep from doubling

Up on freq.'s that you don't need,thus rendering a cleaner,

Tighter mix.

[MathOfInsects]

Why do you post

like this? I find

it hard to read,

except at a poetry

slam.

[endlessummerkeys]

I got the Sub and I really like it. It just fills out the bottom

[TimA]

Because commenting on the Spacestation IS poetry for many.

[garnermike]

ASPEN said: "Adding a sub or bass amp DOES add LF support...but it can be over done. A little sub goes a long way."

 

Yes, Aspen, this is what I have found to be true with the v.3 and even the earlier v.2. It's why I set my sub-linked bass combo at relatively low volume (from the point at which I can just hear it coming at my ears as I turn its volume up) before we start to play to the crowd, and only raise it if it my keys seem to get lost among the other instruments once we are actually playing to the crowd for real. And as I said earlier, I prefer to have the bass amp set at mid-highs, mid-mids, and only a tad more than mid-lows. I believe it will be common mistake for v.3 "newbies" to overdo the low frequencies on the sub-link'ed amp.

[Jazzmammal]

Dave, glad you were able to finally post the gig report. I didn't want to say anything before you.

 

First guys, Dave is a very nice guy and one heckuva player. I've listened to some of his recordings but he's even better in person.

 

Everything he said about the gig is exactly correct. The bassist is also a very good player but he was also too loud. An acoustic bass would have fit that room much better.

 

I know exactly what Dave's talking about because when the bass is booming around a very live room it causes ear fatigue when I'm playing and everything starts to sound muddy and muffled. The coffee shop is a bit bigger than the average Starbucks but the walls are mostly glass, there are all the glass display cases and the floor is tile. You all know what that means.

 

When we walked in the only two leather living room type chairs available were six feet in front of the bass player's Goliath amp with four 10's. I'm sure that's why nobody else was sitting there. Even then I could still hear Dave fairly well if muffled a bit, but when I got up and walked around the room that's when I heard the SS's famous "bloom". Dave was very clear but with the booming bass he was still missing some presence. Nothing to do about that other than have him turn up and we all know where that would lead. The band was already pushing it for that room and like he said this was probably a worst case scenario to test out the SS and it still was pretty decent.

 

When they finished I sat at his CP4 and played a bit and without the band I really liked the sound of the Yamaha and when I hit the split bass button I could really hear what the sub sounded like too. I liked it and may wind up getting one myself. Dave said to me what he's said here before, he's strictly an acoustic piano guy and like most of us here he's been on a quest for years to get a stage piano sound as close as possible to a real grand piano. When I mentioned organs and Rhodes, he said that's nice not interested.

 

I've said it before, a well spaced pair of very high quality powered speakers is the best sound you're going to get but then there's the cables, placement and extra weight to have to schlep while the SS is "almost" as good and much easier to set up. It boils down to how much it's worth for somebody to get the absolute best sound with more work involved. And if you don't have the ideal space to set up your two speakers, I think the SS will still sound very close to that in any case.

 

Bob

[MathOfInsects]

Somewhere on a bass forum, some guy just posted, "Played a coffee shop gig last week and the mix was PERFECT!"

[I-missRichardTee]

Thanks Bob and Dave.. I can only add what few will assert... the bass player who is rated as very good, is not so good in my book. Too loud bass is bull.

And the attendant political pussy footing we have to dance around the too loud dude, is exasperating to this old pro... who is out of patience for what to me is unprofessional. He is supposed to know he is drowning out the sensitive musical person that is Dave.. FOUR tens! Damn that pisses me off. My volume level is always a concern of mine with regard to the band. [video:youtube]

[MotiDave]

I'm now firmly unsure, thanks all .

 

I suspect the intent and needs of a jazz pianist playing in an acoustic set are 180 degrees misaligned from mine. I play loud rock, its really the only thing that interests me. I'll play some loud pop-rock, but the general key is its still loud.

 

As I pondered the "don't need a sub ... a sub is crazy ..." recent turn to this legendary thread, I thought to ponder ... how often am I playing important notes in that range ... say below 120 Hz.

 

If Aspen is accurate this SSv3 handles tones well above 100, than something to fill the below 100 sorta makes sense. but tests will tell ...

 

I'll try it with a few of my old signature rock songs I play in different bands as a test this weekend

 

I can always send it back, I suppose.

[TimA]

Somewhere on a bass forum, some guy just posted, "Played a coffee shop gig last week and the mix was PERFECT!"

That's the funniest comment I've seen on this forum!!

[cphollis]

I'm now firmly unsure, thanks all .

 

I suspect the intent and needs of a jazz pianist playing in an acoustic set are 180 degrees misaligned from mine. I play loud rock, its really the only thing that interests me. I'll play some loud pop-rock, but the general key is its still loud.

 

As I pondered the "don't need a sub ... a sub is crazy ..." recent turn to this legendary thread, I thought to ponder ... how often am I playing important notes in that range ... say below 120 Hz.

 

If Aspen is accurate this SSv3 handles tones well above 100, than something to fill the below 100 sorta makes sense. but tests will tell ...

 

I'll try it with a few of my old signature rock songs I play in different bands as a test this weekend

 

I can always send it back, I suppose.

 

Just to be clear, I'd offer that for most styles of music and volume levels, you don't *need* a sub. Just like I don't *need* Nord boards or any of the other over-spec'd stuff I play through.

 

I played a number of gigs without a sub on the SSv3 (loud-ish electric rock, small venues) and it just shined. No complaints. As Aspen has said repeatedly, there's a gentle roll-off as you get below 100Hz. It ain't the end of the world, folks.

 

If I'm being honest, if it wasn't for this damned thread and my interminable GAS, I wouldn't have been interested in one.

 

That being said, adding a small sub and filtering out the low freqs makes a good thing that much better. There seems to be more headroom in the SSv3 now for when I'm really pushing it, as it doesn't have to deal with low frequency signals.

 

Quieter gigs, I leave it home. But when the rest of the guys are bringing their big amps, I bring my sub.

 

 

[Doerfler]

adding a small sub and filtering out the low freqs makes a good thing that much better. There seems to be more headroom in the SSv3 now for when I'm really pushing it, as it doesn't have to deal with low frequency signals.

 

Quieter gigs, I leave it home. But when the rest of the guys are bringing their big amps, I bring my sub.

 

 

and there you have it

[MotiDave]

I've gotten to the point where I almost refuse to bring my KC out, i cringe to just hear it. I throw my mercy to the FOH monitor mix man and hope he can send me a mix tilted to keys separate from the band's other mix(es). i also won't bring it to a rehearsal, i'll just run through the PA.

 

i'm not spoiled by alternative quadraphenic sonic options like you many pros experience and compare, I'm excited to say the least. The last time I played the venue i'm at this Sat, the sound guy screwed me from behind, he literally hurt me with ridiculous blistering side fills 2 feet from my head. this time, its "HA, I say! ... HA!"

[HammondDave]

"Is that your KC there in the wood Chippah?"...

[cphollis]

I had a pair of KC-350s around for years. Hated them, I did. Tried to sell them multiple times. No dice. Finally gave them to my teenage nephews who were trying to start a basement band. My sister-in-law hated me for that.

 

Hey, we all need to start somewhere, right?

[Tombsalley]

Because:

 

"Roses are red violets are blue,

You don't always need a sub

But,sometimes you do!"

 

 

[Theo Verelst]

About the sub thought (in general): there is the matter of the sub remaining in phase with the main speakers, especially when the subs exhibit a lot of harmonics, or the main system is already not producing too much airflow at say 120 Hz. Originally a sub in a big system would enforce *sub* low, which certainly in my book isn't a 100Hz, but lower. For instance in my setup with 12 inch mains, the 15 inch sub (still small for moderately big PAs) is high cut filtered at 40 Hz (forty Hertz) and the mains low cut at 40 Hz. It's easy with normal material playing to notice the sub is on or off. The signal transients also contain (very) low frequency components. So just high pass filtering or taking some form of mushed up low end as standard and start blowing tones like a guitar player is not a good full range setup, and might need "Marshalling" to keep the mid range volume ok (i.e. non dangerous) for all the listeners!

 

T

[Aspen]

About the sub thought (in general): there is the matter of the sub remaining in phase with the main speakers, especially when the subs exhibit a lot of harmonics, or the main system is already not producing too much airflow at say 120 Hz. Originally a sub in a big system would enforce *sub* low, which certainly in my book isn't a 100Hz, but lower. For instance in my setup with 12 inch mains, the 15 inch sub (still small for moderately big PAs) is high cut filtered at 40 Hz (forty Hertz) and the mains low cut at 40 Hz. It's easy with normal material playing to notice the sub is on or off. The signal transients also contain (very) low frequency components. So just high pass filtering or taking some form of mushed up low end as standard and start blowing tones like a guitar player is not a good full range setup, and might need "Marshalling" to keep the mid range volume ok (i.e. non dangerous) for all the listeners!

 

T

Excellent points all Theo! Playing with subs affect the entire band's foundation and require caution. One reason many "hate subs" is because they are too often misused, or over used.

 

While I recommend LF support in certain applications, I have also cautioned that a little sub goes a long way (less is more).

 

Also, phase is VERY important, but today most audio products and cables are decent so the inadvertent "flipping of phase" is rarely an issue. And anyway, most subs have a phase reverse switch. (BTW, just try switching your sub out of phase when set at 125Hz and notice how much bass goes away...not to mention clarity!)

 

Also, most subs contain a hi pass filter so you can reduce it's bandwidth. If you leave your SS3 on the floor, which is how I usually recommend...say in front of the sub instead of on top, you may find limiting your sub's top FR to 80Hz (or even lower as Theo suggests) can even "sound better".

 

As always, I suggest you "try it and see", and let your ears be your guide.

[Aspen]

Regarding "positioning" your SS3, I had a great gig report message from a fellow SS3 user who was in one of those "tight spots", so he was set up very close to the SS3.

 

The SS3 was against a wall, and he was sitting about 3' away. But instead of setting his SS3 "front facing" toward him, he moved the SS3 to a 45 degree angle against the wall. This position had two advantages; 1) he was now "off axis and so could better judge the "mix" of the Front and Side (to set his Width level), and 2) this used the wall to reflect the Side speaker off the wall which improved the "bloom", by shortening the bloom distance, cut it almost in half! You could say this was an "off the wall" solution! (actually, I said that...sorry)

 

Anyway, he really liked it, and I think you should also try it. It makes good sense. I asked him to share that report here but as I haven't seen that post yet (probably a day job keeping him busy, drat!), I thought I would share his findings in case any of you find yourself in that "tight spot" this weekend.

 

One thing I have mentioned, and after 102 pages probably bears repeating, is another positioning trick I have used in past that works amazingly well in small rooms, especially rehearsal rooms the size of a small den. Just place your SS3 facing directly into a corner, about 1-2 feet away, thereby creating a poor man's Klipsch horn. You may also want to try tilting it back slightly using a front side lift device, like a door stop or a small 2x4 block...that helps HF and improved short range projection .

Y

ou will be amazed how that increases the Bloom effect! This is a great trick for your bedroom tryouts! The only trade off is a slight HF loss, as you'd expect, but you can compensate that with your tri-amp Front speaker system by boosting your MF and HF level controls...works perfectly for this. This is especially effective for those Leslie sims and EP Patches, but perhaps less so for the AP patches...you'll just have to experiment.

 

Now, with any normal full range speaker this would never work out well, so most of us would never think to listen to the rear of a cab! But CPS is anything BUT normal, this technology is VERY different and it LOVES reflections of all kinds!

 

So next time you are doodling in your spare bedroom or garage...try it and see. I'd be interested to hear what you think.

 

Then if you like it, why not just try it in those really small bars or clubs...you may be surprised. Certainly your band mates will be surprised and probably think you are crazy (not always a bad thing), but they will enjoy the increased diffusion and nobody will be offended by a direct firing side speaker.

[MotiDave]

Tracker: May 20, 2015 4:05 AM At destination sort facility SAN DIEGO, CA

 

she's almost home ... with a little luck, I'll say hello to my little friend tonight. all this sub chatter has freaked me out, not gonna lie

[garnermike]

" Just place your SS3 facing directly into a corner, about 1-2" away, thereby creating a poor man's Klipsch horn..."

 

Will try that sometime. But did you mean 1-2 INCHES or 1-2 FEET.

 

 

[Aspen]

" Just place your SS3 facing directly into a corner, about 1-2" away, thereby creating a poor man's Klipsch horn..."

 

Will try that sometime. But did you mean 1-2 INCHES or 1-2 FEET.

 

 

Good catch Mike, correction made, thanks!

 

"Just place your SS3 facing directly into a corner, about 1-2 feet away, thereby creating a poor man's Klipsch horn."

 

Proving once again, I really shouldn't post before my morning coffee!

 

[TimA]

Because:

 

"Roses are red violets are blue,

You don't always need a sub

But,sometimes you do!"

 

There's some funny guys on this thread!

[MathOfInsects]

Because:

 

"Roses are red violets are blue,

You don't always need a sub

But,sometimes you do!"

 

 

I Laugh Out Louded

[MescaL]

It looks like Pablo from Nord US Tech support uses a Spacestation too (bottom R corner). Also a relatively rare Nord NHC73 flight case sitting by it.

 

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/man-behind-nords-us-live-tech-support

[cphollis]

It looks like Pablo from Nord US Tech support uses a Spacestation too (bottom R corner). Also a relatively rare Nord NHC73 flight case sitting by it.

 

http://www.nordkeyboards.com/man-behind-nords-us-live-tech-support

 

Now THAT looks like a fun room of toys!!