Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[agitato]

I thought there were only 2 (mixes),FRONT=L+R, and LEFT=L-R.

[SpPiano]

I've played a lot more gigs using my SS and have been VERY happy. This week I took it to a small bar for a jazz jam, to rockwood music hall in nyc for a show with my indie rock band, to a small 300 seat theater with a latin rock band, and to a mid size ballroom with the indie rock band. For the theater and the ballroom I stuck a stereo di in front of the SS and sent it to FOH and was very happy. For the small bar and rockwood (a small venue in the city with a great backline, but with no amps for me!) I just used the SS itself. I've had only 1 issue with SS ever and it was a combination of me expecting more from the amp than it could deliver, terrible sound guys, being next to a really loud bass amp, and maybe some shoddy gain staging on my end. I love this thing. I've bought the Behringer sub, but so far it's just been sitting in my basement. I haven't needed it yet. Most gigs have been novation sl controller-macbook-apogee duet-(di when necessary to FOH)-SS or PX-5S-macbook-apogee duet-(di when necessary to FOH)-SS.

 

My piano sounds in pianoteq have needed a lot of tweaking, but now they sound really great. I took off most of the effects and played with the eq and am now really happy with it. Most sounds I use seem to work better with less reverb with this amp.

 

To solve the side speaker blasting the drummer problem, I've mainly just set up stage left, but one time I had to get creative with the top of the guitar player's pedalboard.

[PianoMan51]

I thought there were only 2 (mixes),FRONT=L+R, and LEFT=L-R.

 

Here's a clarification. Unlike almost every other speaker I've heard, the bottom 'width' speaker has no rear baffle and is allowed to broadcast in both directions, in basically a figure-8 pattern.

 

"LEFT" is the front of the bottom speaker cone which faces left. The signal sent to the bottom speaker is L-R.

 

"RIGHT" is the back of the bottom speaker cone which faces right and is 180 degrees out of phase with the front of the cone. So RIGHT equals -(L-R) which equals R-L.

 

So, coming out of the FRONT speakers is L+R. Coming out of the LEFT side of the bottom speaker is L-R. And coming out of the RIGHT side of the bottom speaker is R-L.

 

If this is confusing AND if you really want to understand what the SS is doing, find a technical description of M-S recording. M-S and SS are two sides of one coin.

[Raymb1]

This is what Aspen says on the CPS website. There is no R-L signal:

 

 

How CPS works: CPS electronics encodes the Left and right signals to be Front (L+R) and Side (L-R) signals. Then its unique 2 speaker system, which are positioned out of phase, do NOT mix, but instead repel each other and drastically increase their dispersion. Technically this is called an "acoustical space vortex." The repelling energy of the CPS spatial vortex keeps these signals separate, and the stereo effect in tact until they reach your ears! Therefore, the stereo image stays in tact will never collapse to "messy mono", no matter where you stand in the room, or on stage.

The CPS signals reflect off each pother, then off walls, floors and permeate everywhere, even into other rooms, maintaining the 3D stereo image.

[Brettymike]

Absolutely Brilliant Concept , the mind that came up with this rivals Tesla.

 

Brett

[timwat]

the mind that came up with this rivals Tesla.

[video:youtube]

[video:youtube]

[PianoMan51]

This is what Aspen says on the CPS website. There is no R-L signal

 

The math is easy. L-R when out of phase by 180 degrees is R-L. This is arithmetic. No YMMV. No IMHO. The left side of the bottom speaker puts out L-R. The right side puts out: (you fill in this space).

 

Go on.

[timwat]

For what it's worth, here's a primer on Mid-Side recording from our good friends @ Universal Audio.

[Brettymike]

Of course I meant Nikola Tesla , not that overpriced overcomplicated electric car that only a few millionaires would buy.

 

Brett

[timwat]

Brett - I figured...but I live in the SF Bay Area. Teslas are so commonplace in Silicon Valley that the upscale shopping mall in San Jose (Santana Row) offers rows of Tesla parking spaces (with charging stations). It's kind of a different world I suppose (and no, I certainly can't afford one), but Elon Musk is a poster child of entrepreneurial success round these parts.

 

As for Tesla the rock band, well, they're local from Sacramento as well (less than an hour north), and a lot of us know those guys from back in the day.

 

So old Nikola is in good company here in NorCal...

[Brettymike]

Very entertaining when one reads about that guy Musk , huge xwife payoffs etc

 

Brett

[Raymb1]

I think we need Aspen to chime in here. I didn't think a speaker could be out of phase with itself. The way Aspen describes it is that the front speaker is out of phase with the side speaker.

[AnotherScott]

The math is easy. L-R when out of phase by 180 degrees is R-L. This is arithmetic. No YMMV. No IMHO. The left side of the bottom speaker puts out L-R. The right side puts out: (you fill in this space).

 

Go on.

What's coming out of the back of the driver is out of phase with what's coming out the front (in this case, left side of the box vs. right side of the box) - but I don't think that means what you think it means.

 

Let's assume a stereo track with guitar hard left, piano hard right, and vocals dead center. The left channel minus whatever the left channel has in common with the right channel (L-R) would leave you with nothing but guitar. The right channel minus whatever the right channel has in common with the left channel (R-L) would leave you with nothing but piano. But the driver in question is obviously not going to be sending guitar out its front side and piano out its back. Whatever comes out one side is exactly what comes out the other (except out of phase).

 

As I understand it, what this driver produces isn't really L-R or R-L but actually a combination of both L-R and R-L. That is to say, it is the total difference between "center" (which comes out of the front-facing speaker) and off-center.

 

 

[Raymb1]

Sounds good to me!

[Aspen]

I'm still not convinced that we should be refracting the left side. I think just the right side with one wing would be more than enough to do it. But not sure. Maybe Aspen has already tested this theory.

 

Yes, I've been playing with the CPS technology for over 14 years, and have experimented extensively (but that doesn't mean I have stopped learning, and/or trying new things!)

 

I can answer you this; the acoustical energy is nearly equal as it emanates from either side of the side speaker, but a bit more HF content from the front side of course.

 

Therefore these various home made, and need not be too much higher than the side speaker cavity...although it wouldn't do any harm if they were...and should be placed on both sides.

 

Also, I wouldn't worry that your band mates will somehow stop "hearing you". I think they still will. It should sound nearly as loud but a probably would be a better mix, more "bloom".

 

Reflections create distance, increase energy and enhance LF. I've always been a big fan of the Klipsch corner horns (I have a pair in my pool room...amazingly loud w/ just a Mac 30! Essentially your guys are creating a poor man's corner "horn".

 

Another MI example would be the Acoustic bass amps back in the day when I worked there and with Jaco Pastorius, who used a 360 and later a 370. These were both a"corner horn" designs, and projected across the room. They were MUCH louder at a distance than they were up front (deceptively so!).

 

You guys are on the right path here, and I LOVE the creativity! As I've said from the start of this thread; if you can't find a wall or a corner for the SS v.3, then make one!

[Aspen]

As I understand it, what this driver produces isn't really L-R or R-L but actually a combination of both L-R and R-L. That is to say, it is the total difference between "center" (which comes out of the front-facing speaker) and off-center.

 

 

Exactly, you got it.

 

Whatever is UNIQUE to the Left and Right are filtered out in the "sum & difference" network (MS backwards), and so these signals are separated from what is the SAME in the Left and Right signals. So the Front speaker contains basically the MONO content, while the side contains everything left over (pun intended).

 

I think because the bottom Side speaker moves left and right (and so is "out of phase with itself), there is a natural assumption that right signals go right, and left signals go left...but it really doesn't work that way.

 

The CPS "3D" effect happens by the fact that the Front and Side are themselves physically "out of phase", and that they contain TOTALLY different content (and nothing the same). Otherwise placing them out of phase would CANCEL and lower the volume (alot!).

 

But after CPS processing, and then positioning them 90 degrees out of phase, they are "opposing sound waves"! So they don't mix as conventional L&R speaker sound waves would. And that enhances distribution to about 300 degrees. They are now creating a soft, OMNI directional, sound effect that contains the same image mix everywhere...the CPS image never collapses, and even goes thru open doors and around corners!

 

I also think I may be confusing some engineering folks when I simply say "CPS is MS backwards". While it's an easy and quick way to gain some understanding. In practice, the MS speaker system doesn't work like the MS stereo recording systems, which do create a pretty hard Left and Right result.

 

I think it has been correctly observed that the hard left and right you'd get from a pair of conventional stereo speakers may be more "accurate" than CPs, "dimensionally" speaking. But that's true ONLY if you're standing in the sweet spot (exactly @ 30 degrees in the middle of each speaker). Everywhere else you stand (I call that the "sour spot") you will lose that stereo result and worse, hear a different mix that constantly changing everywhere else! .THAT"S the main problem for conventional stereo in live performance, and why IMHO stereo (until CPS) really has never "worked" in a live venue.

 

CPS solves this issue, completely. Albeit with a somewhat less of a defined hard left and right, BUT it adds this uncanny "front to back" image too, which really sounds great for the Leslie sims and for that AP "cabinet" resonance that seems to surround you (softly), like a real grand piano would!

 

But MOST importantly, it does what it does, sounds the way it sounds, and gives that 3D image EVERYWHERE (except if you are 3' right in front, or 3' to either side before they get a chance to reflect and "bloom"). So when you dial in your patches, and balance your levels, EVERYBODY (including you) hear the SAME amazing stereo/3D effect no matter where they are standing.

 

Of course when I pull out all this techno-speak, and I see those blank faces with eyes glazed over...I go to my default explanation; It's Magic! Do you really WANT to know how that guy pulls that rabbit out of the hat? No, that spoils all the fun!

 

So, "fuggetaboutit", and go have fun. And if they ask, just tell them "it's Magic!"

[16251]

This is what Aspen says on the CPS website. There is no R-L signal:

 

 

How CPS works: CPS electronics encodes the Left and right signals to be Front (L+R) and Side (L-R) signals. Then its unique 2 speaker system, which are positioned out of phase, do NOT mix, but instead repel each other and drastically increase their dispursion. Technically this is called an "acoustical space vortex." The repelling energy of the CPS spatial vortex keeps these signals separate, and the stereo effect in tact until they reach your ears! Therefore, the stereo image stays in tact will never collapse to "messy mono", no matter where you stand in the room, or on stage.

The CPS signals reflect off each pother, then off walls, floors and permeate everywhere, even into other rooms, maintaining the 3D stereo image.

This is why we must own a SS.

[rickzjamm]

At the end of the day it's all about the result.

When I get asked how the hell does it do that, I say... it just does. I play my music & let Aspen wrestle with the details. ;-)

[KingstonCrim]

Finally got to try it out in a live bar gig last evening, and (no surprise anymore) the little box kicked @ss. For AP I brought my not too fancy old Yamaha CP-120 which sounded absolutely great even without any additional processing or EQ. I'll be happy with that.

 

My favorite though is the way it handles the Leslie sims. I use a PC361 for the KB3 organs, with some sounds using the internal Leslie EFX and a some going out through the Ventilator. The organ/Leslie patches all sounded so real with plenty of punch. I found on my Ventilator I needed to back off on the Distance knob which I used to run about 9-10 o'clock, but that was just too intense on the rotary effect so I adjusted to more like 2 o'clock and it felt about right.

 

Even our drummer who was sitting directly in the line of fire from the side speaker commented at the endand I even asked him if the Mid-Side signal ever sounded strange at all but no he said it all sounded good to him. I had placed a single hard surface against the carpeted wall that the SS was sitting about a foot away from, just to get better reflection. The other side was out into the open air aimed directly at the drums. The SS was also sitting right next to the bass amp/speaker which was a little challenging at times, but the SS was always able to cut through. Plenty of good comments afterward on my soundI think now it's safe to sell the old powered monitors.

 

As we were packing up I noticed that my 1/4" input plugs to the SS felt loose, the plugs seemed to wobble a bit which I hadn't noticed previously. I asked the bass player if my little amp happened to fall over or anything while they were placing the bass cabinet, and said no nothing happened. It almost made me think it tipped backward and landed on the input plugs. But it sounded fine all night and doesn't seem to not perform, so maybe there's no damage but I was surprised the plugs wiggles around so much. Anyone else notice this?

[PianoMan51]

Do you really WANT to know how that guy pulls that rabbit out of the hat? No, that spoils all the fun!

 

So, "fuggetaboutit", and go have fun. And if they ask, just tell them "it's Magic!"

 

Well, you can lead a horse to water...

[Joe Muscara]

But that's true ONLY if you're standing in the sweet spot (exactly @ 30 degrees in the middle of each speaker). Everywhere else you stand (I call that the "sour spot") you will lose that stereo result and worse, hear a different mix that constantly changing everywhere else!

Aspen, I think you should describe traditional stereo as the sweet spot and the sour space since it's bigger than just a spot and that would communicate that most of the area isn't getting good stereo. Feel free to use that.

[endlessummerkeys]

ok so I got my RIGHT SIDE ONLY deflector set up last night. Worked great. I played in a room that was fairly large and there waa a hallway that went about 50 feet to the north then a sharp right and a large industrial kitchen area. my bass player was in the kitchen trying to find some food(ha) while I was just getting my keys dialed in and I was playing an EP patch with stereo reverb and some stereo delay. He came out of the kitchen and back down the hall and into the room where we were setting up and said" man you should hear that Rhodes in the kitchen it sounds awesome and you can hear the delay like I was in the same room" That is all I needed to hear and the whole night I had a blast and the keys sounded great. I really feel sorry for everyone else that has to play mono the rest of their life.

"Disruptive technology at its best"

 

[AWkeys]

Used my SS last night and I'm having the same distortion issues as the gig I used it on last week. This is a different band, and we had a very reasonable stage volume. I checked all my gain stages, my cables, etc. - signal was strong and everything was fine.**

 

I had a strong signal at the mixer out and the volume on the SS was at 12 o'clock. The highs seemed muted and I had to boost the high end to about 2 while I cut back the mids. I kept the width at about 12 as well. The amp was tilted against the back wall of the stage aimed at my head, and I was about 6 feet from it.

 

The piano sound would distort with thick chords. The organ did not distort this time. However, again the Nord's Wurly sound distorted way too easily. I used the parametric mid on the Nord to find the offending frequency and it was around 400Hz. As soon as I dialed this back, it sounded better. Seems like it shouldn't be an issue if no one else has this problem?

 

I'm also wondering if the tweeter might be blown - it seems weak, and it breaks up too easily.

 

Anyway, not to rain on anyone's parade - I think this is such a cool piece of equipment, and admittedly I need to spend more time with it dialing it in. For now I might just go back to mono into my K10 - it's tried and true. I'll fiddle with the SS at home in my spare time.

 

**Incidentally, while setting up the sound guy at the club used the L/R XLR outs on my mixer for FOH and I noticed when he plugged in that I lost the stereo image on the SS. I did some troubleshooting only to find that he had a bad cable going to the right channel. Something about it shunted the right channel output at the TRS outs on my mixer (going to the SS). As soon as he swapped the cable, it all came back to life. Thought I should detail that here just in case any of you come across the same thing in your travels.

[endlessummerkeys]

thanks for the heads up on the cable good to know

 

[spazzkey]

I really feel sorry for everyone else that has to play mono the rest of their life.

"Disruptive technology at its best"

 

[timwat]

Playing in mono is like going through life with one eye closed. Why ask your audiences to listen to you with one ear closed?

 

Give your audience the real depth of your playing. Play a CPS Space Station v.3.

 

Aspen, feel free to use that.

[HAMEGZ]

Possible quirky cables and wonky gain structures were ruining my SS experience.

 

Lately I had distortion and a poor spatial experience so I rebuilt my signal chain. I removed the SM10, ran new cables and inserted a Radial DI to go to the PA now instead of using the SM10 as a splitter. If I bring more than one board I will either use the boards audio ins or grab a little mixer.

 

Todays test with the new setup sounded like it first did, I was ready to sell the SS .

 

Cannot reiterate the cable quality and gain structure issues.

 

 

[HammondDave]

Why ask your audiences to listen to you with one ear closed?

 

 

In my case its better that the audience has both ears closed...

[HammondDave]

Used my SS last night and I'm having the same distortion issues as the gig I used it on last week. This is a different band, and we had a very reasonable stage volume. I checked all my gain stages, my cables, etc. - signal was strong and everything was fine.**

 

I had a strong signal at the mixer out and the volume on the SS was at 12 o'clock. The highs seemed muted and I had to boost the high end to about 2 while I cut back the mids. I kept the width at about 12 as well. The amp was tilted against the back wall of the stage aimed at my head, and I was about 6 feet from it.

 

The piano sound would distort with thick chords. The organ did not distort this time. However, again the Nord's Wurly sound distorted way too easily. I used the parametric mid on the Nord to find the offending frequency and it was around 400Hz. As soon as I dialed this back, it sounded better. Seems like it shouldn't be an issue if no one else has this problem?

 

I'm also wondering if the tweeter might be blown - it seems weak, and it breaks up too easily.

 

Anyway, not to rain on anyone's parade - I think this is such a cool piece of equipment, and admittedly I need to spend more time with it dialing it in. For now I might just go back to mono into my K10 - it's tried and true. I'll fiddle with the SS at home in my spare time.

 

**Incidentally, while setting up the sound guy at the club used the L/R XLR outs on my mixer for FOH and I noticed when he plugged in that I lost the stereo image on the SS. I did some troubleshooting only to find that he had a bad cable going to the right channel. Something about it shunted the right channel output at the TRS outs on my mixer (going to the SS). As soon as he swapped the cable, it all came back to life. Thought I should detail that here just in case any of you come across the same thing in your travels.

 

Sounds like you got a lemon. It happens to the best of us. I would send it back and see if you still have problems with the replacement.

[theGman]

When you guys talk about R or L orientation on this or other amps, do you mean as when facing the unit, or the opposite?