Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[timwat]

I'm also wondering if the tweeter might be blown - it seems weak, and it breaks up too easily.

 

 

Aspen taught me this method to test the baseline performance of the speaker.

 

Plug in any well recorded stereo music (I used Fagen's The Nightly). You can use a CD player, or in my case an MP3 player with the suitable appropriate cable and direct box to go into the L and R 1/4" inputs.

 

Start with Level and Width at Zero, and MF and HF at 12 o'clock.

 

Slowly turn up Level to reasonable level. You should hear only front speaker. Adjust HF to taste. Adjust MF to taste. It should sound pretty good. Note that you'll need give it something with adequate HF material to get anything out. That's why Steely Dan, the Nightly or similar ensemble music with a lot of instruments and vocals - it provides enough spectrum.

 

Raise volume to see if you have any issues w/ front speakers.

 

Finally, adjust Width to bring the side speaker into the picture. Adjust to taste until the playback material sounds good, balanced and loud.

 

Walk around the room(s) and get a sense of what's possible.

 

If something's wrong with the inputs, speakers, etc. - this should reveal it.

 

If your amp passes all those tests, then start with great cables and one keyboard and set your input gain structure to the amp to make sure you're not getting distorting when you whack it hard.

 

Trust me, the problems you hear when a cable is bad, or a front speaker is falling in and out, etc. are all VERY difficult to diagnose when sitting in front of your keyboard playing.

 

But these things become WAY easy to diagnose with the MP3 or CD test.

[cphollis]

During the history of this thread, I think there have been about a half-dozen folks who thought their SSv3 had a problem, only to find out it was flaky cables or similar. Even if the cables seem ok in other applications, small signal differences will be dramatically exaggerated by the SSv3.

[KingstonCrim]

Yesterday morning I played through the SS at the church gig once again, and afterwards a random person came up to me and specifically commented on how very nice the keyboard sounded. I mentioned I was working with a new amp system and he just said "I don't know whatever it was but it just sounded really great". I had used a Wurlitzer EP sound (Kurz PC3 - #25 Woodstock Clunker), a pedal steel, some orchestral brass and percussion, and a lowstrings drone with triangle up top so I got to use a nice variety of sounds. The sound man said he barely had to put any of my sound in the overhead mix, as it filled the room so well just from the SS by itself and I was not turned up that loud at all, with a drummer and a bass player and three singers.

 

They also have a (mostly unused) Mackie 15" sub sitting up there. One day soon I'll get the appropriate cables and try coupling it up with the SS and see how that sounds too. This little box is just too much fun.

[AWkeys]

Hey timwat,

 

Thank you for the suggestion - I will do that test when I get back from my fly date.

 

cphollis, the cables I have I've been using for 7-8 years and always make sure I coil them correctly (over/under) and never tangle them or subject them to stress. I don't believe in the Mogami/Monster/etc. hype, but maybe I am due for some new cables anyway.

 

Thanks again, guys - this forum is most excellent!

[Jetrocker]

OK, so I did it. I just ordered the SSV3 and Behringer Sub, based on everything I've read here. I have a Traynor K4 and was just going to find one used QSC K10 for use in the smaller club/casino bar gigs, and keeping the K4 for the bigger stuff. Now I'm hoping that I love this new rig and hope to use the SSV3 only for the smaller stuff and bring the sub along for the bigger venues. What it came down to - I felt I'd always wonder how the Spacestation would have performed for me, had I just bought a K10, so I have to give it a try. Guess I'll know soon! It all is delivered Weds with first gig on the 21st. Fingers crossed. If it doesn't work for me, the rig goes back and I keep the K4 and look for a K10.

[Jazzmammal]

AW, sounds like you've got too much stuff in the chain to test this properly. Simply plug one keyboard directly into the SS and take the sub out (which is actually a full range out) to the FOH. If you normally use multiple keyboards and mixers etc then set that all up so it's ready to go but just for a quick test during soundcheck or maybe the first tune use the SS alone. I'll bet it sounds great.

 

Then you can start isolating where the problem is.

 

Bob

[Calyx]

Some people have mentioned connecting their source to the Behringer sub ins and passing the sub out signal to the SS so that the SS doesn't have to handle the LF that is already reproduced by the sub. It sounds like a great idea, but the Behringer sub outputs are balanced XLR, while the inputs of the SS are unbalanced 1/4". The big danger is that if you use an XLR to 1/4" cable that wires XLR pin 3 to shield you could damage the SS!

 

"When connecting an active-balanced output to an unbalanced load, it is necessary to leave the cold output (pin-3) floating. Using an XLR connector, pin-3 should not be connected to anything. If a cable is used with pin-3 tied to pin-1 (shield), the output amplifier could be damaged. This type of connection establishes a low/no impedance path to ground. This means the amplifier will drain current, unimpeded, into ground, which is stressful to the output amplifier." - http://community.avid.com/forums/t/58612.aspx

 

Is this true? What's the best way to connect them?

[NosPup]

I had another great SSv3 gig this weekend. Sound was clear and loud with plenty of headroom. Many of our "regulars" said they could hear the keyboards better than ever and thought everything sounded great.

 

I'm interested in some new high quality cables after reading all these posts. Does anyone recommend any particular brand or type of cable that they are really happy with?

[cphollis]

Some people have mentioned connecting their source to the Behringer sub ins and passing the sub out signal to the SS so that the SS doesn't have to handle the LF that is already reproduced by the sub. It sounds like a great idea, but the Behringer sub outputs are balanced XLR, while the inputs of the SS are unbalanced 1/4". The big danger is that if you use an XLR to 1/4" cable that wires XLR pin 3 to shield you could damage the SS!

 

"When connecting an active-balanced output to an unbalanced load, it is necessary to leave the cold output (pin-3) floating. Using an XLR connector, pin-3 should not be connected to anything. If a cable is used with pin-3 tied to pin-1 (shield), the output amplifier could be damaged. This type of connection establishes a low/no impedance path to ground. This means the amplifier will drain current, unimpeded, into ground, which is stressful to the output amplifier." - http://community.avid.com/forums/t/58612.aspx

 

Is this true? What's the best way to connect them?

 

I went with a pair of XLR to TRS with all the signals straight through. I remember reading here that the SSv3 handles that internally by doing the appropriate bridging.

 

No funny odors so far

[Jazzmammal]

I use two sources, one is a guitar and amp repair shop a few miles from me. I can tell him what I want and he makes them up for $15-25 each. The second is HOSA brand from Sam Ash that are fairly inexpensive. Both work fine with the SS.

 

Bob

[DavTomSun]

Can somebody tell me exactly what cables you would use from your keyboard to a Behringer B1200D-pro, and the from the B1200 to the Spacestation V3? I know this was answered somewhere in this thread, but for the life of me I can't find it.

Thanks!

[cphollis]

Standard 1/4" TS (guitar cables) from keyboard to small mixer.

 

Standard XLRs from small mixer to B1200D-PRO.

 

And these little suckers from Sweetwater from the BD1200D to the SSv3

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/STX105F

 

If you're not using a small mixer, then ... I guess I'd go with these

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PXM105

[hardware]

Coming from a Soniccore XITE-1 I use the Zaollo Silver for the SSv3, XLR to TRS, then Mogami Gold XLR to XLR when I need the Sub.

 

Coming from a keyboard just for shits and grins I used the audio from my Solaris instead of the digital connection I always use and the Mogami XLR TRS Gold had the same noiseless high fidelity sound I get from digital.

 

The guy who first mentioned the B1200D here needs a round of applause.

 

I usually wouldn't be caught dead with Behringer years back, but since the Midas acquisition, have the X32 and couldn't be happier having that for a PA Mixer.

So took the chance and this little 12 gets a great low end sound, and the signals getting passed to the SSv3 have no degradation compared to when it's running in stand alone.

[KingstonCrim]

Standard XLRs from small mixer to B1200D-PRO.

 

And these little suckers from Sweetwater from the BD1200D to the SSv3

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/STX105F

 

What if instead of the Sweetwater/Hosa cables running directly from Sub to Spacestation, couldn't you also run through a direct box like the Radial ProD2 to couple the XLR balanced cables with 1/4" TS unbal that feeds the SS? Shouldn't that also work?

[cphollis]

Standard XLRs from small mixer to B1200D-PRO.

 

And these little suckers from Sweetwater from the BD1200D to the SSv3

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/STX105F

 

What if instead of the Sweetwater/Hosa cables running directly from Sub to Spacestation, couldn't you also run through a direct box like the Radial ProD2 to couple the XLR balanced cables with 1/4" TS unbal that feeds the SS? Shouldn't that also work?

 

Electrically, yes, I think so. But if you look closely, you'll notice you'll need a dual-ended female XLR cable as both the BD1200 and the Radial ProD2 have male XLR pins. And that's not a cable that's likely to be conveniently lying around.

[rickp]

I'm interested in some new high quality cables after reading all these posts. Does anyone recommend any particular brand or type of cable that they are really happy with?

Oh man, at great risk of touching off cable debate, since you've asked and no one has answered yet, I'll put neck squarely on block and say I'm a Monster Keyboard Cable fan (and Monster XLR mic cables too). Tying so many different components together, one bad cable or connecter can introduce noise or wreak havoc; my usual stage rig uses 14 Monster cables (including 4 XLR's running to FOH), they're all several years old and they're dead quiet.

 

And value-wise, you'll buy cables once, since they have a lifetime warranty, but these things are tough and substantial enough that you'll likely not need it.

 

I for one have never understood people spending thousands of dollars on keyboards, amplification and speakers but then tying it all together with the cheapest cables they can find . . . trite but true, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

So there it is - neck squarely on block - swing away!

 

 

 

[cphollis]

Cable debate? Challenge accepted.

 

I've spent money on nice high-end cables, like the Monster products. I've also spent money on everyday brands, like HOSA mentioned above. I would be hard-pressed to correlate the extra money spent vs. value received.

 

Just like buying wine -- if you can't tell the difference, you shouldn't be paying the difference.

[rickp]

-- if you can't tell the difference, you shouldn't be paying the difference.

You can definitely tell the difference if you cut into them to customize lengths; differences are very apparent then. Outside overall gauge is much different too, which translates to some additional toughness as well.

 

I'm not advocating the stuff audiophiles talk about (speaker cables north of $150/foot, chasing specs that are discernable only by machine and not human ear); relative to the cost of our equipment, the differential cost of these cables isn't outlandish.

 

But, whatever works for someone works for them - no universally right or wrong answer.

 

 

[Dglavko]

Cable debate? Challenge accepted.

 

I've spent money on nice high-end cables, like the Monster products. I've also spent money on everyday brands, like HOSA mentioned above. I would be hard-pressed to correlate the extra money spent vs. value received.

 

Just like buying wine -- if you can't tell the difference, you shouldn't be paying the difference.

 

I'm on the fence on this.

 

My main stereo benefited immensely from high end speaker and intercon cables and phono pre-amps which cost more (individually) than some of my quality keyboards.

 

So I've spent much money on high end instrument cables from time to time as well. Those seem to benefit the clavinet to tube amp and (son's) guitar to tube amp very much but digital keyboards less so...

 

I've also spent some serious dough on the DIY (George L) cable kits which, although the right length, have failed me at times.

 

Coming back full circle, I did an audition for a decent blues group recently with my SS V.3 in tow. I found myself with one shoddy cable so I asked if they had a spare... That (I suspect that they were not impressed by my lack of prep), and the side speaker firing at the group leader (who heard me way too well) and my naive inexperience with the rig/inability to hear myself as well with my usually directional (mono) QSC, and my haste in showing up to 'fake it', meant I didn't get the gig.

 

Bottom line, get/bring decent cables (and back ups) and throw in a piece of plexiglass/thin plywood in case you need it for this beast. And don't assume you can fake it (ie play at low levels so only you hear) like most other amps...

 

PS. I'll take a $20 bottle (Cdn) of wine over a $15 bottle any day of the week. (That's how much they cost up hear btw)

 

[cphollis]

It sounds like more about prepping for an audition, than cables or the SSv3. I've had a few auditions go that way, so yeah. Oh well.

 

Anyone can spent $200 on a bottle of wine and get a nice bottle. Doing the same for $20 takes a bit of work. Time for a OT wine thread on this forum?

[pianokid]

Okay, so got to use the SS for the first time at a gig. First impression...Mixed. Medium sized restaurant/club. About 250 or so people. Stage is about 20 feet long by 5 feet wide. I set up in the corner where there is a 3 foot high wrap around wooden wall to my left. Set up the SS in the corner to my left where the wall created the trifold effect. Figured it would be perfect. I set up early in the morning before any patrons get there, so I was able to try things out albeit at a low volume. Things sounded pretty good. Nice and clean, but again, low volume. Return 12 hours later to a packed house. This band is loud and we play 1 three and a half hour set with no breaks, even between songs. So no time to make any major adjustments except mixer(Behringer 8 channel) volume or eq tweaks and quick SS knob adjustments. Organ and horn patches sounded great. Loud and clear. But AP sounds were muddy and did not cut through the loud stage volume. Need to experiment more, I guess. Buying some new cables this week. Also need to play around with gain stage setting.(If anyone can point me to a good tutorial on this subject, would appreciate it.) Anyway not giving up yet, but just a bit disappointed.

[timwat]

pianokid,

 

An easy mistake to make with this amp is to assess its output the way you've always been used to judging things...from your position on stage.

 

Trust me, what the audience is hearing out there is much more different than what you're hearing - more so with this amp (and its unique way of doing things) than any other "conventional" amp.

 

As far as a tutorial, I pass this along from the horse's mouth (Aspen's). First, make sure you do the CD/MP3 test I described several posts above (on this thread). That will give you a better sense how far to adjust things with objective, full range material. And how loud the darn thing is capable of going.

 

Second, yes, make sure your cabling is solid, as one intermittent cable will cause more hell then you ever experienced with a conventional stereo amp solution.

 

Last week I gigged the SS in a funk jam session at a crowded, packed bar in downtown Oakland. I thought I was barely audible (as drums and bass were packed so close on that postage stamp stage we could have flossed each other's teeth).

 

But during the "jam" session, I let another KB player spend time on my board and I walked around and outside. Keys were clear and present all the way out to the pizza parlor on the corner.

 

Hope that encourages you a little.

[cphollis]

Tim is 100% right. What you hear isn't what everyone else hears.

 

That being said, I found myself wanting to fiddle with my AP voices. Less reverb, more stereo content, etc. Everything else: no problemo.

[pianokid]

Thanks timwat I will be getting new cables and will certainly do Aspen's test.

As far as what the audience is hearing...I don't care. Well...I do care but let me explain. 99% of the gigs I play, we have a FOH system with a soundman, so he controls what the audience hears. I got the SS solely for an onstage keyboard monitor for myself. Also many of the stages are so small, there's no room for optimal placement. So if this is going to work for me, it has to perform in those situations. Even with very limited real estate, my JBL Eon510's always sounded good to sometimes excellent.

[timwat]

One small thing that will help for onstage monitoring: Wedge the front up so that the front speaker is aimed at your head.

 

I use an Ampwedge - I'm sure some snicker at me for paying $40 for a hard foam wedge, but I've been snickered at for far worse.

 

You can use anything like that, or an unused sustain pedal, direct box...anything to prop the front up to point the business end in your ear will help a lot.

[pianokid]

Exactly what I did at the gig.

[pianokid]

Maybe I'll try raising it off the floor.

[cphollis]

Tilting back = good.

 

Tilting back + room to bloom = better.

 

Off the floor + room to bloom = better still.

 

Off the floor on small sub + room to bloom = even better.

 

Off the floor on a small sub + side baffles = about as good as it gets for a personal monitor / stage sound.

 

I've only played 2 gigs with my SSv3 on the Behringer sub with my homemade baffle, about 3' back, but it's pretty cool indeed.

[hardware]

Vocals are sure nice through the SSv3 too.

Hooked up the antiques and used the basic Reverb>Pitch ADT emulation and it was big.

 

If I were a singer that didn't like IEMs, and some guys just don't, this would be a great replacement to those last century wedges.

[AnotherScott]

As far as what the audience is hearing...I don't care. Well...I do care but let me explain. 99% of the gigs I play, we have a FOH system with a soundman, so he controls what the audience hears. I got the SS solely for an onstage keyboard monitor for myself.

I think most of the benefit of the SS is to give the audience a spacious sound, without the limitations of the typical "small sweet spot" stereo they get through FOH. If the stereo is *only* for you on stage, and you don't care about what the audience or rest of the band are hearing, I'm not sure I really see much benefit of the SS over a pair of traditional monitors. The SS is great because it gives everyone stereo (of a sort), but if you only need to worry about one person, as long as you can place two monitors roughly equally to your left and right, you've got that one person covered. I guess the benefit is, if stage space is tight, the SS takes up less space than two monitors though, OTOH, you may need to place it farther away to give it the space to bloom.