So what chord is this?

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by ProfD:

Jazzwee, I think it is great that you have sought out mentors to aid in your rehab from the guitar , er, I mean help you along in learning jazz.

 

I just hope you don't spend 16 years studying with any one of them.

 

Don't want you to end up bald, in a black turtle neck with $5 in your pocket waiting on Lennie Tristano or the Hale Bop Comet.

 

Besides, it shouldn't take that long to figure Etta out.

Ha! No I probably don't need anywhere near 16 years. I'm getting close actually...C'mon over to L.A and let's jam!

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Legatoboy:

Jazwee,

 

I also heard Lennie was related to Princess Diane and was involved with Knights Templar....

 

Actually, Lennie's brother was a Psychiatrist and the underground Be-Bop Trinstano-ite English bass player from London (was in NY I think), Peter Ind was into Richiean(sp) theerapy to break down psychological block from childhood that reside in the body to loosen you up.

 

Like there was a very successful Opera singer I was told who's career was waining cause she after some success was unable to sing very high any longer. After a year or so of therapy it was discovered she had a re-occurring dream where she was in the surf and drowning but could not get herself to yell for help. It was discovered that her parents as a young girl always expected her to never ask for help unless she really neeed it to foster her imdependance.

 

The tightness from that parental experience manifest itself in a tightness in her throat when confronted with more stressful expectations. Peter Ind the TRistano-ite bass player and some of the New York crew are into things like that. Gotta be carful somne of that stuff can f you up and hurt instead of help I've was warned by my coach. but it can help. Meditation, he's trying to get me into daily counting of my breaths to help my concentration and loosness my coach is now! Most days I don't have time! I'm gonna try again I think....

lb

LB, I didn't want to hijack the wrong thread. This thread can be hijacked all day

 

So LB, we'll all be the psychiatrist here -- let's talk about your bad Tristano dreams (or bad dreams about this thread).

 

On another side note, talking about Meditation, did you ever read "Effortless Mastery" (Kenny Werner)? It's all about Meditation and playing music.

[Steve Nathan]

This thread has covered more territory than Willie Loman

It scared me for a page or two when it looked like it might fall into the old "That's not Jazz" "This is Jazz" quagmire.

Fortunately I think we can all agree that the Bb7#11,13 is universally loved by all proponents of all genres of music.

bump

[Jazzwee]

We could always start a discussion about the intricacies of this chord with Country, Steve. Welcome back! Haven't checked up on us in awhile.

[Jazzwee]

We've had it all wrong. A Dominant 7#11(9)(13) chord is better known as Lydian Dominant Chord.

[Legatoboy]

Jazwee,

 

you said:

So LB, we'll all be the psychiatrist here -- let's talk about your bad Tristano dreams (or bad dreams about this thread).

 

I have a re-occurring dream that I'm actually conversing with Lennie Tristano ghost on this very thread lately, I wake up in a cold sweat, delirious, Lennie keeps discussing my shortcoming as a player(which are many) in the nightmare. He keeps referring to the "Nathan" chord as a model of CosmicEtta-ness (whatever that means), and he requires me to play it in cycle of fourths in all inversions at exactly 10 AM while all the time holding your playing and work ethic up as what mine could be if "I only had a brain". All with the Emerald city in the Background 'in color'.......! Time for the meds again I'm afraid!

 

and:

On another side note, talking about Meditation, did you ever read "Effortless Mastery" (Kenny Werner)? It's all about Meditation and playing music.

 

No I never heard of the book. There is a great young blind piano player here on Long Island named Danny Keane that used to talk to Ken Werner on the phone all t he time, I think he lives here on Long Island btw. Danny would have a kind of phone piano lesson with him. Danny's only 25 or so but has the talent of a 40 year old. Sings like Ray Charles only a white boy. Blind musicians are very sensetive. I'll look into the book!

 

I have yet to count my 100 breaths yet this week as part of my lesson, I'm supposed to do it every day sitting quietly! I'm still adjusting to my new schedule and making up for lost time on the weekends without gigging running around catching up on things. I can't decide if it's real life or un-real life yet. I'll look into that book. thanks!

lb

[dementedchord]

oh... dream analysis now.... ok i have this recurring one where i'm passed out onm a barroom floor ettas playing in the background... and as i'm coming to very slowly i start to realize that there's a woman in white standing above me... starting to think i'm dead ... feeling kinda panicy... slowly becoming more aware of my surroundings i look up and notice she's not wearing panties....(cue Bb79#1113) so i ask her can i smell your pussy??? she says NO!! says i "must be your feet" then i wake up....

[David Loving]

New preacher has been warned about the power in the church, led by Mother Green. As he preaches his first sermon he notices a woman dressed to the hilt but with no panties on - flashing beaver. He leans over and asks an Elder, "Is that Mother Green?"

[David Loving]

"Nah, that's jus' the way the light's hitting it."

[Dave Horne]

A thread I started yesterday was deleted because I veered over to that dangerous political area by suggesting that my fellow Americans vote ... vote early, and often. (I didn't suggest any candidate or any party, just vote, was my message.)

 

That was pulled but the several previous posts stay. Hmmm.

[latchmo]

This was a response to Dave H's post about being deleted. I deleted it so it doesn't antagonize anyone.

 

New message: I'm voting for Bb7#11

[Legatoboy]

dementedchord & daviel,

 

You guys are just to muckin-futch! There are ladies on this forum too. I like a dirty joke as much as the next person but I think we should all try to have alittle class, just alittle!

 

Ok I've said my piece!

lb

[David Loving]

I voted last week - early voting in Texas.

[Jazzwee]

So what's the result of the vote? Is it

 

(a) an Etta James Chord?

(b) A lydian dominant chord?

© This is just Legatoboy's dream sequence?

(d) We all need to be Tristanoites?

(e) There really are no chords?

(f) There really ARE chords?

(g) It's really C/Bb7?

(h) Cnegrad won the argument (*)?

(i) Steve Nathan won the argument (*)?

 

* Note: I certainly don't remember what the argument as about -- that's too far back.

[linwood]

Well, for me, I'll still go with what I said at first. I'd play that if I saw Bb#11. 7 9 13 are understood. :l thread

[dementedchord]

lb... i think your blushin dude... it's been pointed out to me by most of the women ive known that we (guys) dont really know them...DUH??? while their sense of humor doesnt seem to run as much to the pruient as ours i hear the avg conversation in the ladies room would make a sailor blush... and lest you think they've all been bimbos...wife #1 is a high power acct in DC... wife#2 started as a music educator and became a doctoral candidate in early learning disabilities (wonder if she ever got it? oh well..)

[dementedchord]

forgot to add... as a concequence of this discussion i've noticed how little i use 11's in general... not sure why yet but have a theory... strange...

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by dementedchord:

forgot to add... as a concequence of this discussion i've noticed how little i use 11's in general... not sure why yet but have a theory... strange...

So what's the theory? And you're speaking of jazz right?

[dementedchord]

well i think has to do with for me at least it's the furthest extension from the root... while obviously the 13 is still out there as i use alot of closed voicings (dont we all) it's easier for my ear to hear the 13 as possibly "the root" putting the whole thing in a first inversion context... make sense??? as opposed to my perception of the 11 as a sus4/delayed resolution/plagel cadence kinda thing... the exception is when i'm doing quartal harmonies (ala tyner) and i tend to stick with that sound and not just through them in somewhere...

[Jazzwee]

Well in jazz, the 11th is not as popular as in rock anyway. So I'm with you. Its vagueness is a negative in functional harmony anyway (unless you're playing tyner stuff).

 

I remember being taught to use fourth chord voicings to substitute for minor chords. But I don't do it much.

 

But I thought you were going to reference the #11. Now this is actually quite useful being a tritone interval with the root.

 

Anyway, here's kind a fun link about Lydian Dominant Theory for Improvisation. I imagine most theory guys would know this by heart but I thought it was a nice explanation and a nice "related" post to this thread. Maybe others will contribute or react.

 

http://www.lydiandominant.com/theory/lydian-dominant_theory.html

 

Now if you want me to get this thread into some far out stuff, we can talk about Lydian Chromatic Theory of Tonal Organization (LCTTO) by George Russell. I've read a bit about it and two of my teachers studied under Russell and one said to me that it's a unique sound (outside).

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

http://www.lydiandominant.com/theory/lydian-dominant_theory.html

 

Now if you want me to get this thread into some far out stuff, we can talk about Lydian Chromatic Theory of Tonal Organization (LCTTO) by George Russell. I've read a bit about it and two of my teachers studied under Russell and one said to me that it's a unique sound (outside).

Russell has a place in the world of music. That Lydian Dominant stuff is some pretty mindless junk.

[Jazzwee]

Why is it mindless? It's just a recitation of the tritone relationships and diminished scales. It's just basic theory. Nothing unusual except for the way it is explained.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Why is it mindless? It's just a recitation of the tritone relationships and diminished scales. It's just basic theory. Nothing unusual except for the way it is explained.

Yeah, it's like running around the block five times just to get from the couch to the bathroom. It's taking a very simple and very basic concept and overcomplicating it beyond any rational need. Mindless junk.

[Jazzwee]

I like the running around. I already know how to get from the couch to the bathroom. I like the alternate routes also because sometimes you see different scenery along the way.

 

And I like the fact that it gives us something to argue about

 

So let's go to the more serious topic of George Russell and LCCOTO. This group is more mysterious than all Tristanoites combined, you know. If there are Tristanoites, there are "Russellites"( ). Are you one of these Kanker? Because if you are, this thread will get to 2000 posts really fast.

[kanker.]

I am not a Russell follower, although I have recently bought a copy of LCCOTO. I haven't gotten too far into it, but he also needlessly obfuscated ideas with cumbersome terminology. That said, so far it seems to at least have some good concepts to feed on.

 

I tend to believe that music theory is something that may be just about the ultimate in 'a posteriori' knowledge. It only exists to explain that which has happened. It can be used to construct things, sure, but when someone comes along and breaks the rules, they have to go back and devise new rules to encompass it. Music theory is a very empty discipline after a point because while it may describe things like harmony, scales, and structure, there has never, and IMO will never, be a theory that explains why a melody is beautiful, moving, or whatever other adjective one may wish to use to describe a melody that impacts them.

 

I have to admit, while I play jazz, I don't consider myself a jazzer. I just want to play music. Subscribing to schools of thought, theory, and style is very constraining to me. When it becomes dogmatic then the theory has trumped musicality. Reality is much more appealing to me than theory or dogma. Playing what I hear, when I hear it is much more meaningful to me, and while knowing theory can certainly be helpful to reaching that end, I've known more than my fair share of folks who know theory for days and can't hear or play shit. The closest thing to dogma that I espouse is that chords do not exist.

[Jazzwee]

Hey K., I was looking for an argument (just for fun) but I can't find one. Now, I love to mangle music theory. Just like I can mangle many other topics of similar complexity. It's my nature to delve beyond the obvious, sometimes the study being its own reward.

 

But as much as I talk music theory all day long, I do agree STRONGLY with you, that music theory is in essence an 'a posteriori' knowledge. But since I can't describe notes and tone and I'm not on a keyboard, I enjoy studying the background.

 

We had a little discussion once about my recommending that new improvisers who want to improve their melody should put strong chord tones in beats 1 & 3. And you did not subscribe to that theory. Here's an example of me learning how to make a melody on my own but finding some theoretical basis to explain something I was already doing. I was taught that as well but really more as a confirmation of something that my ear was already telling me was right (roughly summarized to: a good melody outlines the changes -- obviously the original composer probably did this in reverse).

 

So our beliefs on the "reality" side I'm sure match more closely than you might think. It's just my intellectual nature that comes into play (I'm into many other disciplines other than music. Complexity is my middle name ).

 

BTW - when I'm figuring out how to improvise on changes, I honestly don't sit there too much studying chord scales. Usually, my ears will tell me what to and then I back in and review what scales I actually utilized. I'm still dominated by my ear. My main weakness here is vocabulary and that takes time to develop.

[Jazzwee]

K., when you get further into LCCOTO, share your opinions. Everyone who follows this is secretive and vague.

[ProfD]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

BTW - when I'm figuring out how to improvise on changes, I honestly don't sit there too much studying chord scales. Usually, my ears will tell me what to and then I back in and review what scales I actually utilized. I'm still dominated by my ear. My main weakness here is vocabulary and that takes time to develop.

As I mentioned in a another thread today, the musical vocabulary consist of chords, scales and more importantly, recordings which are the books that have already been written.

 

So, a good set of ears enable you to consolidate that which is learned in theory into practical application; stretching the boundaries of what you play.

 

The edge jazz masters have, especially those with a definitive style/flavor, is their ability to "hear" outside the boundaries of what is technically correct.

 

Over time, they don't 'think', "I'm gonna play a Phrygian scale or a II-V-I turnaround right here". It just flows from hours of playing, reharmonizing tunes and composing their own.

 

Their musical vocabulary is huge but the most important asset is a set of "big ears".

 

Besides, it is ultimately sets of ears (listeners) and not a quiz or test that determine whether music sounds good or bad anyway.

 

Note that I did not say right or wrong.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

We had a little discussion once about my recommending that new improvisers who want to improve their melody should put strong chord tones in beats 1 & 3. And you did not subscribe to that theory. Here's an example of me learning how to make a melody on my own but finding some theoretical basis to explain something I was already doing. I was taught that as well but really more as a confirmation of something that my ear was already telling me was right (roughly summarized to: a good melody outlines the changes -- obviously the original composer probably did this in reverse).

This only really takes into account melodies that follow the changes, and then only from a certain perspective. Gregorian chants, for example, have no harmony, much less changes, music that is bi- or polytonal doesn't really have changes to define in the same way. My own tunes tend to evolve from the melody down, I harmonize the melody instead of writing a melody to changes. The strong beats approach constrains melody in ways that don't allow for these types of approaches, among others.

[Jazzwee]

K., I agree that there are other approaches to making a melody. ProfD already alluded to those with advanced skill that can go outside the boundaries. But melodies following changes is probably the good equivalent of "reverse engineering" the tune for jazz. It makes you sound like the original composer and thus is pleasing to the listener's ear.

 

Occasionally abandoning the "changes", I think is not unusual and is used for effect, as in briefly going outside, but returning to the changes and being based on the changes is part of the tradition of jazz. Since jazz itself is driven by the historical vocabulary, I don't think I'm being too brash in suggesting that someone learning to improvise should start off with following the changes, or feeding off the melody. This is consistent with the vocabulary.

 

Now the Avante Garde will try more different things, perhaps like you, but stylistically speaking, what I was taught is in keeping with the idiom.

 

And there really lies the differences, if someone were asking about how to improvise, do we then suggest that the go listen to Ornette Coleman for stylistic clues to begin with? Can you think of how bad someone will sound trying to "copy" free jazz? Didn't Cecil Taylor get initially influenced by the same base of jazz masters as most of us, i.e. the traditional idiom? So I'm sure he was taught the same basic rules, then he learned how to break them.