So what chord is this?

[Jazzwee]

Sorry. I'm not a big fan of dixie. To me "modern" jazz is bebop.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Soundscape, swing has to do also with accents. Not just straight quantization of 8th notes. In a typical jazz tune, the distribution of time between the eights is not fixed. It is not unusual for a jazzer to switch this around in a tune and for the drummer to react to it in some manner. If done by machine, it does have a mechanical feel because it doesn't flex and would be difficult for drum programmers to emulate (unless it is real drums just transferred to MIDI). Often, a change in swing feel is used as a tension and release tool. For example, to my ears, when the first eight note of a pair is lengthened, it has an old fashioned, light hearted feel. As you move closer to straight eights, it has a more serious intense swing feel to me.

Aren't you now defining swing and how it's used?

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Swing is syncopation

Hmm... I think of syncopation as something like a 16th-note anticipation.

 

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syncopation):

 

"In music, syncopation is the stressing of a normally unstressed beat in a bar or the failure to sound a tone on an accented beat."

 

but it later says:

 

"Playing a note ever-so-slightly before or after a beat is another form of syncopation because this produces an unexpected accent."

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

but sometimes it is hard to describe because a lot of it is feel and it gets in your bones.

So a 'full' description would be complicated and probably worthless for performing since it's about getting the 'feel,' but, that's different to 'can't' define it.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Other things that come into play: Swing makes possible other effects like playing behind the beat, ahead of the beat (rhythmic displacement).

Hmm, but do you need swing for rhythmic displacement?

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Someone tried to quantify the eight notes of Bill Evans, one of the jazz greats. They could not find any consistency. It varied all the time.

Quantification isn't a single figure, it's a complex bunch of relationships and factors. Think of something like speech recognition... it's not simple quantification but there's software that can do it. I'm talking about a theoretical quantification really as no-one may have done it. Point is, it's not a completely mystical thing.

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

If I play rock stuff, I find my phrasing and accents changing and being helped by my having learned to swing.

A good grasp of swing/straight playing is a big asset for all playing. Actually it can be quite hard to play a dotted 8th note + 16th totally 'straight'.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by soundscape:

Hmm, but do you need swing for rhythmic displacement?

No but it would have a different feel. Dragging the beat in swing, actually increases the swing feel.

 

Dragging the beat in straight playing sound like rubato to me. And sounds like...dragging.

 

In swing, dragging occurs only up to a specific point for it to sound good (to my ears at least) and almost always it resolves to catching up to the beat.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by soundscape:

Quantification isn't a single figure, it's a complex bunch of relationships and factors. Think of something like speech recognition... it's not simple quantification but there's software that can do it. I'm talking about a theoretical quantification really as no-one may have done it. Point is, it's not a completely mystical thing.

I'm not talking mystical. I'm talking about almost a call and response in swing feel. If the piano player swings harder, the drummer often has to change pattern and change accents. As the piano player lessens the swing, it will change again. Since this can happen fairly rapidly, and can be like a sine wave pattern, how does one easily quantize this? Like I said, swing involves accents. That would be such an extensive programming task and in the end, it still may not sound good as the transitions may be too abrupt.

 

A prior teacher of mine arranged the tunes for many sitcoms here in L.A. He would MIDI his own drums in as he knows a machine does not give an authentic feel.

 

Just the patterns alone. Jazz drum patterns (good drums) vary a lot. I use a lot of premade drum tracks for practice and even with that there are so many limitations. It's not like rock where there's just a constant pounding beat.

 

This constant interface between drummer and pianist was so evident when I recently watched Kenny Werner and drummer Ari Hoenig. It was pretty amazing interplay.

[kanker.]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Sorry. I'm not a big fan of dixie. To me "modern" jazz is bebop.

My point is that when people start talking about what 'true' jazz is, they rarely mean what true jazz is. They mean something that represents their own political conception of what jazz is, which normally excludes certain styles of jazz for whatever reason. Jazz is either all inclusive of the vast number of styles through the last hundred years or so, or it specifically means Dixie, from which all those other styles descend.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I'm not talking mystical. I'm talking about almost a call and response in swing feel. If the piano player swings harder, the drummer often has to change pattern and change accents. As the piano player lessens the swing, it will change again. Since this can happen fairly rapidly, and can be like a sine wave pattern, how does one easily quantize this? Like I said, swing involves accents. That would be such an extensive programming task and in the end, it still may not sound good as the transitions may be too abrupt.

Ah, well, this is the practical side of things and not some sort of theoretical "AI drummer" that could listen to what's going on and come up with stuff/play along itself. Of course that's exactly what our brains are doing anyway, they can store very complicated information and do complex tasks that we have a hard time explaining (can you tell me how you're able to recognize and read all this right now?), so the practical side is how to learn.

 

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

A prior teacher of mine arranged the tunes for many sitcoms here in L.A. He would MIDI his own drums in as he knows a machine does not give an authentic feel.

(I'm guessing these weren't jazz?)

 

Of course even on a song with a quantized basic drums and other rhythmic parts sometimes it's a case of playing them, then quantizing but keeping the velocities. With other parts it's also often really necessary to actually "play" them. In terms of sequenced/multitracked music this is really a question of 'user interface' or 'human-machine interaction' issues... trying to get parts sound right using by playing notes a matrix editor is hard.

 

P.S. Next message in this thread is the 1000th post!

[Sven Golly]

Nothing to add, just wanted to be the 1000th reply in this wacky thread!

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by soundscape:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

A prior teacher of mine arranged the tunes for many sitcoms here in L.A. He would MIDI his own drums in as he knows a machine does not give an authentic feel.

(I'm guessing these weren't jazz?)

Yes it is jazz. You'd be surprised about how much of TV music is jazz. Other musical genres are easier to do on a drum machine for sure.

 

In order to emulate a true jazz drum sequence, you almost have to do MIDI of real drumming, and then the quantization is applied of course to just straigthen out the time but it doesn't change the feel (which is what my old teacher did).

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by Sven Golly:

Nothing to add, just wanted to be the 1000th reply in this wacky thread!

Wacky posts DO belong in this thread ! Although preferrably with some connection to the original topic (however vague the connection might be...the vaguer the better ).

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by kanker, apparently:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Sorry. I'm not a big fan of dixie. To me "modern" jazz is bebop.

My point is that when people start talking about what 'true' jazz is, they rarely mean what true jazz is. They mean something that represents their own political conception of what jazz is, which normally excludes certain styles of jazz for whatever reason. Jazz is either all inclusive of the vast number of styles through the last hundred years or so, or it specifically means Dixie, from which all those other styles descend.

My friend Kanker, don't be over-legalistic on me now. That's reserved for Dave Horne.

 

But yes, Cydonia did educate me one day about "Jass", the true origins of Jazz. That's like saying jazz came from African call and response. I have to draw the line somewhere so I start at Bebop since that is where "formal jazz education" (mine) begins.

[soundscape]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Originally posted by soundscape:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

A prior teacher of mine arranged the tunes for many sitcoms here in L.A. He would MIDI his own drums in as he knows a machine does not give an authentic feel.

(I'm guessing these weren't jazz?)

Yes it is jazz. You'd be surprised about how much of TV music is jazz.

Well, it is "real" jazz (whatever that means)?

[Legatoboy]

*************************************************

REAL JAZZ: BEAT / REAL BEAT JAZZ /BE-A-T-ERRIFIC JAZZ JAZZ JAZZ JAZZ ALL THAT JAZZ JAZZ JAZZ ALL TH. . . . .

*************************************************

TRISTANOS THE SNACK THATS ALWAYS IN THERE BRINGS YOU:

 

THE LENNIE TRISTANO FESTIVAL

 

YES 5 FULLS DAYS OF NOTHING BUT LENNIE 24 HOURS A DAY.....

 

YOU'LL HEAR EAR SPLITTING RIFFS, RUNS, PASSAGES. SWEET AND STRANGE HARMONIES NEVER SEEN OR HEARD BEFORE BY MORTAL MEN ( OR WO-MAN)!

 

YOU'LL HEAR :

Line up

G Minor Complex

Requiem

Turkish Mambo (my favorite, yes it's double tracked)

Sub-Conscience Lee

All things you are

Ghost of a chance

Interviews

and many many more!

 

Just follow the signs to WKC at:

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/finder?call=WKCR&is_unl=Y&is_lic=Y&is_cp=Y&sr=Y&s=C&sid=&x=5&y=4

 

Once at WKCR it alittle trickey to find the MP3/REALPLAYER page, but it's there!

 

Host most likely by Phil Shapp and a host of others(Evan Spring)!

 

ps:

I will be hosting a Ray Manzarek festival at home to counter balance the Lennie festival for sanity and karmic reasons for anybody interested!

[cnegrad]

Check your link. It's not taking me where you intended.

[cnegrad]

Disregard; it must be a Firefox issue. When I cut and paste it manually, it works.

[Legatoboy]

-cnegrad,

 

OK, I'm not sure why but the links are not working 'as usual' today for some reason!

 

lb

[Legatoboy]

*************************************************

TRISTANO FESTIVAL STARTS 12:00 Noon NOV 7th and RUNS through 12 NOON NOV 11th .....

*************************************************

 

Sorry aLL - in work and alittle rushed as usual!

Forgive the typos and spelling errors!

And my Boss!

lb

[ProfD]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I have to draw the line somewhere so I start at Bebop since that is where "formal jazz education" (mine) begins.

Well, isn't that convenient. Skip right over the first 50 years of Jazz, huh?

 

Ragtime, Dixieland and Big Band contain the fundamentals of swing.

 

Granted, Bebop incorporates elements of the earlier styles. I imagine an understanding of Jazz history from the beginning might fill in the holes.

 

After all, we do need a basic knowledge of chord construction before we can call it a Bb7#11 (Etta James chord), right?

[kanker.]

Originally posted by ProfD:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I have to draw the line somewhere so I start at Bebop since that is where "formal jazz education" (mine) begins.

Well, isn't that convenient. Skip right over the first 50 years of Jazz, huh?

This is one of the side effects of "formal jazz education"? (Man that phrase grates at my sensibilities)

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by kanker, apparently:

Originally posted by ProfD:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I have to draw the line somewhere so I start at Bebop since that is where "formal jazz education" (mine) begins.

Well, isn't that convenient. Skip right over the first 50 years of Jazz, huh?

This is one of the side effects of "formal jazz education"? (Man that phrase grates at my sensibilities)

Obviously Bebop incorporates the elements of early jazz styles but as you know things like modes and scales and voicings (like the voicing for Etta James chords) used today didn't get documented and structured till Bebop came along. So it only makes sense since one has to refer to these. Mark Levine's book is an example of such a compilation right?

 

Beyond that is personal taste. I'm not that fond of the early styles. So shoot me!

[ProfD]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Obviously Bebop incorporates the elements of early jazz styles but as you know things like modes and scales and voicings (like the voicing for Etta James chords) used today didn't get documented and structured till Bebop came along. So it only makes sense since one has to refer to these. Mark Levine's book is an example of such a compilation right?

 

Beyond that is personal taste. I'm not that fond of the early styles. So shoot me!

Jazzwee, no need to shoot. That is the benefit of information and technology.

 

Nowadays, musicians have the benefit of learning the language of jazz on their own terms through books and other means within their own comfort zones.

 

At some point, a jazz musician has to get out there and play with others in order to fully grasp the language and style of the music.

 

The theoretical discussions are great. However, you do know most jazz musicians could give a sh*t less about Etta, right?

[linwood]

This thread just paid off. I was just doodling My Romance and outta no where I play.

 

Bb Ab C E G

 

E C# A# D# G#

 

Eb Bb G C D F Bb

 

...go figure.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by ProfD:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

Obviously Bebop incorporates the elements of early jazz styles but as you know things like modes and scales and voicings (like the voicing for Etta James chords) used today didn't get documented and structured till Bebop came along. So it only makes sense since one has to refer to these. Mark Levine's book is an example of such a compilation right?

 

Beyond that is personal taste. I'm not that fond of the early styles. So shoot me!

Jazzwee, no need to shoot. That is the benefit of information and technology.

 

Nowadays, musicians have the benefit of learning the language of jazz on their own terms through books and other means within their own comfort zones.

 

At some point, a jazz musician has to get out there and play with others in order to fully grasp the language and style of the music.

 

The theoretical discussions are great. However, you do know most jazz musicians could give a sh*t less about Etta, right?

I'm not a self learner ProfD. I'm learning in the real world. So the theoretical discussions are supplementary while I am away from a real instrument. And you need fodder for the longest musical based thread of all time!

[ProfD]

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I'm not a self learner ProfD. I'm learning in the real world. So the theoretical discussions are supplementary while I am away from a real instrument. And you need fodder for the longest musical based thread of all time!

I'm a huge proponent of musicians learning as much as possible by any means necessary. The real trip lies within the journey. Don't overlook the twists and turns. Might be a gem there.

 

I agree, we have to say 'something' in order to keep this thread going. I don't think Etta would have it any other way. Dig?

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by ProfD:

Originally posted by Jazzwee:

I'm not a self learner ProfD. I'm learning in the real world. So the theoretical discussions are supplementary while I am away from a real instrument. And you need fodder for the longest musical based thread of all time!

I'm a huge proponent of musicians learning as much as possible by any means necessary. The real trip lies within the journey. Don't overlook the twists and turns. Might be a gem there.

 

I agree, we have to say 'something' in order to keep this thread going. I don't think Etta would have it any other way. Dig?

I agree that there's lots to be learned on the twists and turns, but my road may have been a little different. You see, I don't study music in isolation. I've been into rock music (Lead guitar) for over thirty years. I was drawn to jazz specifically because of Bebop and this has now caused me to want to learn a new instrument. It's a struggle obviously but as you can tell, I really immerse myself in all aspects of the learning (including having fun discussions on this forum).

 

Before I started jazz, I would have been Stepay's kind of guy. Totally ear playing guitar player

 

BTW - kind of an aside, I thought to myself that I survived all those years of rock doing mostly just pentatonics. That's all I knew

[cnegrad]

Are you applying your newfound knowledge to the guitar as well?

[kanker.]

Knowledge and guitar are mutually exclusive.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by cnegrad:

Are you applying your newfound knowledge to the guitar as well?

Unfortunately no. I handed over my Gibson to my kid. He's the guitar player now. I spend too much time on the piano to do guitar playing.

 

This is kind of a funny aside (since we are on a wacky thread anyway). One of the reasons I don't like to practice guitar too much nowadays is that I lose fingertip feel from the callouses. I work on computers all day (can't you tell?), and it affects my typing speed when I can't feel the keys. Pianos, fortunately is a more 'delicate' touch.

[Jazzwee]

Originally posted by kanker, apparently:

Knowledge and guitar are mutually exclusive.

Ha! Not in this case. Transferring jazz knowledge to guitar means transferring all knowledge and technical skill at scales, something you don't need with Rock. With Rock/Blues, you need 'ears'. Thus, I can tell notes with my ear, but could NOT come up with a Bb7#11 chord on the fly.

 

To improvise, I would listen to the chord progression and then figure out by ear what the shapes are and off I go. Guitar to me is 'shape' oriented.

[ProfD]

Jazzwee, I think it is great that you have sought out mentors to aid in your rehab from the guitar , er, I mean help you along in learning jazz.

 

I just hope you don't spend 16 years studying with any one of them.

 

Don't want you to end up bald, in a black turtle neck with $5 in your pocket waiting on Lennie Tristano or the Hale Bop Comet.

 

Besides, it shouldn't take that long to figure Etta out.