dementedchord Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 thanks for the russel link i recently found a couple more... i was exposed to him a little in college but for some reason didnt really take to it... probably something in how it was presented... maybe it's time to revisit it though... "style is determined not by what you can play but what you cant...." dave brubeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 Dementedchord, Like I mentioned, two of my teachers studied under Russell. However, neither of them have attempted to explain LCCOTO to their students (probably because of the complexity). I didn't find anything in their music that was distinctively different that I recognized as LCCOTO, other than perhaps doing a Lydian scale over a major chord, which is pretty common overall. I've read a lot of arguments about it on the web but everything is so wrapped in vagueness and generalities that it is hard to judge whether it is worth studying. Aside from the new view of scales in it, I'm just wondering from a practical point, if the sound is distinctive. This is really the crux I think. Kanker, let us know if this is the case. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Loving Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 Does it sound any different on a Nord Stage 88 ? "Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 The way: "Because of your melodic nature, the moonlight never misses an appointment." Find 675 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementedchord Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 jazzwee... i finaly got the time last night to check out the vincent link you put up... and while i think it's presented rather strangly (in non musical terms to some degree) i found myself agreeing almost completely... in fact the sensation is akin to realizing i've reinvented the wheel... some of it seems non-sequiter to me... for instance when he postulates about the tritone quad diminished subsystems... geeeeez louise.... could you make that alittle more bizzare please.... then next he talks about the b9 chord... it seems to me if present first allowing it to be assimilated into the students vocabulary then the nature of the diminished chord on top(if you will) makes more sense and allows the student to better grasp the fact that there are four instances that use that same structure... make sense??? "style is determined not by what you can play but what you cant...." dave brubeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I hear you dementedchord. I posted it because it was different and fodder for discussion and it was somewhat related to the Bb7#11 chord (always need to bring that connection in!) in that it focuses on that tritone #11/b5 interval. I remember reading this awhile back and it was good for visualizing the symmetry of the diminished scales. It reminded me of the common technique in improvisation of going outside by playing a pattern and moving it up in minor thirds just like the notes of a diminished scale. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementedchord Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 one thing also that strikes me as strange and not sure yet what to draw from it... is that the lydiand/dom scale eschews two of the most important tones in a major scale.... the 4th and the 7th which is the only natural tritone and setsup most of the tension in the key... and interjects the 2 tones #4 and b7 which are from the two most closely related keys (being the leading tone from the relative 5 and the b4 from the relative 4) "style is determined not by what you can play but what you cant...." dave brubeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 At the same time, you end up with 2 tritones in the scale (although I would call it a mode, not a scale ). A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 So what's the theory there? More tritones in a chord, more tension? Thus our special Bb7#11 will have a special place in history. Longest thread about a chord, all because it has too many tritones...debating of course whether it would be voiced with a 3rd to accomplish that... Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Originally posted by Jazzwee: So what's the theory there? Well, it's really an apples and oranges comparison as the major scale and the 4th mode of the melodic minor are not analogous. The 4th mode of the melodic minor's diatonic analogue is the 5th mode of the major scale, or Mixolydian. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 I'm not talking scale theory here K. Is there a theory to the effect of multiple tritones on the chord? Or to put it into your words, "in a contrapuntal sense", what is the functional purpose of harmony with multiple unrelated tritones? Just curious. I don't have a keyboard right here to listen to the different variants of that. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Well I tried it on the keyboard and I guess it is more obvious when you play it then you look at it as a bunch of theory. It sounded to me like two different tonalities pulling away at each other. And was distinctly jazz sounding. And as I moved the tritones closer I got more dissonant, and as I spread them out it was the dual tonality again. It was fun to try and I could make music from this. Very different effect from dual fourths where there was no pulling. No chords here K...I was just doing contrapuntal harmony. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dementedchord Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Originally posted by Jazzwee: So what's the theory there? More tritones in a chord, more tension?yeah i think so... and the b9 or more acurately dim7 would be king... by virtue of possesing 2 sets with 4 possible resolutions... "style is determined not by what you can play but what you cant...." dave brubeck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 You realize that as we approach the theoretical limit of six different tritones embodied within one chord it starts sounding like noise. Noise is good. No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz+ Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 . Find 675 of my jazz piano arrangements of standards for educational purposes and tutorials at www.Patreon.com/HarryLikas Harry was the Technical Editor of Mark Levine's "The Jazz Theory Book" and helped develop "The Jazz Piano Book." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Actually Demented, a Diminished chord has two tritones just like a Bb7#11 (including root and 3rd). Each tritone would have a pull towards two tonalities right? But I think my ear hears only the one with the bottom note because of overtones. So two tritones, in my ear are heard as only as two tonalities, and that includes the diminished. The dim 7 to me sounds more "consonant" than the two tritones of Bb7#11. My theory is that they're spread the farthest apart on a dim 7. How's that for a useless theory of the day? Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by Dave Horne: You realize that as we approach the theoretical limit of six different tritones embodied within one chord it starts sounding like noise. Noise is good. Sounds jazzy to me Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by Dave Horne: You realize that as we approach the theoretical limit of six different tritones embodied within one chord it starts sounding like noise. Noise is good. right, but in heavy metal band... ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by delirium: Originally posted by Dave Horne: You realize that as we approach the theoretical limit of six different tritones embodied within one chord it starts sounding like noise. Noise is good. right, but in heavy metal band... Heavy metal is just loud. They probably don't like tritones. (no tritone in a simple triad). Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delirium Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by Jazzwee: Originally posted by delirium: Originally posted by Dave Horne: You realize that as we approach the theoretical limit of six different tritones embodied within one chord it starts sounding like noise. Noise is good. right, but in heavy metal band... Heavy metal is just loud. They probably don't like tritones. (no tritone in a simple triad). Somebody once told me "if you don't know what to play, play loud - nobody will notice that..." ♫♫♫ motif XS6, RD700GX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by delirium: Originally posted by Jazzwee: Originally posted by delirium: quote:Originally posted by Dave Horne: You realize that as we approach the theoretical limit of six different tritones embodied within one chord it starts sounding like noise. Noise is good. right, but in heavy metal band... Heavy metal is just loud. They probably don't like tritones. (no tritone in a simple triad). Somebody once told me "if you don't know what to play, play loud - nobody will notice that..." Hey, I resemble that remark! (back in my guitar days). Just lay on the fuzz box and distortion. For chords I can just lay my left hand flat anywhere on the neck and move it up and down. You couldn't hear the tones anyway. Just the bass notes. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 By strict definition can a power chord contain a tritone? No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatoboy Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Hey all, I've been away for a while popping questions on the piano forum about humidifier systems. I starting seriously to think about a grey market Yamaha or Kawai 52" upright. Just my 2 cents about the Triple Tritone chord. Not to be a party pooper but what was the triple tritone chord, just curious. If your gonna play a power chord with a keyboard why not use an electronic keyboard, why not go whole hog and use a Hammond C3 run through a 200 Watt Marshall like Jon Lord....I wonder what the sextet Tritone would sound like that loud. Not very good I imagine. I think Guitar power chords are a specific type of voicing aren't they Jazwee? Hey, speaking of volume, I'm finally learning how to play under the rhythm section and listen to them more in a jazz trio format. Took me long enough coming from and electric music/blues based background. It feels much much better than the 200W Marshall I can tell you that. More feel and less high emotion! lb CP-50, YC 73, FP-80, PX5-S, NE-5d61, Kurzweil SP6, XK-3, CX-3, Hammond XK-3, Yamaha YUX Upright, '66 B3/Leslie 145/122 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundscape Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Originally posted by Legatoboy: Not very good I imagine. I think Guitar power chords are a specific type of voicing aren't they Jazwee? They're just 5ths 'cause the 3rd terrible with heavy distortion. (So, they're not strictly "chords.") You don't need a guitar to check this out for yourself; a keyboard with guitar distortion FX or a guitar distortion plug-in will do. I read somewhere that jazz voicings could be considered the "opposite" of power chords. (I guess considering the 3rd and 7th as "guide tones.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzwee Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Guitar power chords -- you guys are getting too sophisticated on me. I'm talking about gripping the chord neck in one straight line, pounding it near the bass and going percussive and skipping the higher note strings. So I don't even think of it as a chord although if you want to get official, the upper notes are all separated by fourths so it must be a fourth chord! (so couldn't possibly have a tritone there). Not that you can tell the notes with all the distortion. Welcome back to this thread LB. Party slowed down there for awhile. Tritone in chords -- So our Bb7#11 has two tritones in it. A diminished 7 has two tritones. Jazz+'s new chord has 4 tritones. Sometimes I just look at these chords theoretically. Music Lab Experiment: So I sat down and the keys and put two tritones in there like a Bb7#11 chord. Then I pulled the tritones apart, listening to the sound as I did that at each half step. I thought it was interesting for me to understand the actual tonality achieved by this. I perceived two moving tonalities when I did this. Not four as one would normally expect. Shows you the strength of a 3/b7 combo. I was also noting how dissonance occurs when the tritones are close by vs. further apart (in one octave). Then, I tried an improvisation based on changing tritones. That was kind of neat. Pretty outside sounding although organized. Hamburg Steinway O, Crumar Mojo, Nord Electro 4 HP 73, EV ZXA1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichieP_MechE Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 Some of the recent discussion about what makes a person a 'musician' reminded me of this thread, so I dug this one up. Certainly one of the more infamous threads in KC history. Newbies who haven't seen this before, good luck reading through it! Oh, and I think this is also the thread where kanker. made the first "There's no such thing as chords" statement. Correct me if I'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanker. Posted October 6, 2009 Share Posted October 6, 2009 You are correct, there are no such things as chords. A ROMpler is just a polyphonic turntable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Tatum Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 There is no such thing as melody. What some call "melody" is simply arpeggiated chords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Horne Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 There is no such thing as melody. What some call "melody" is simply arpeggiated chords. yea, but are those chords diatonic ... ? No guitarists were harmed during the making of this message. In general, harmonic complexity is inversely proportional to the ratio between chording and non-chording instruments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lerber3 Posted October 7, 2009 Share Posted October 7, 2009 nothing to see here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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