Why not just steal keys from the top octave to save weight / space?

[cassdad]

Kind of a rant, but I’ve thought about this for years.  As a pianist, I prefer / demand “weighted / piano-like” action.  To get that, I’m always forced to purchase / use an 88-key board.  I’d love to be able to haul a lighter board, but am not willing to sacrifice the action (& resultant playing satisfaction).

 

Wanting a lighter / smaller board to haul (& take less stage real estate), I’ve repeatedly noticed the range of keys I normally use when I play…. my point is:  I use the low-end keys (below “E”) a LOT….  especially the low “D”, “C” and “Bb”.  Playing a keybed that ends on the lower side at “E” just doesn’t feel “right” to me, and I find myself repeatedly missing the lower notes.  I hardly ever use the top octave keys, which by the way, are just as much “thud” as pitched note (IMO).  Soooo…..  I really wish I could have a lighter weight (and smaller) board that only eliminated the top octave (which I rarely use)!  Why do they “steal” the notes from my beloved low-end?  Do most players use the top octave that much?  Rant off.

[MathOfInsects]

Couldn't you just pitch shift your board down an octave and call it a day?

[cassdad]

6 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Couldn't you just pitch shift your board down an octave and call it a day?

Good Point…. except I lose the weighted action, which, along with the sound quality, is most important to me.  Also, I can’t see any point in shifting lower than the normal 88-key low “A”, so that is a waste IMO.  Is there a 73 or 76 key board that has piano-like weighted action and killer piano sound?

[CEB]

Depends on the action.  On the Kronos 2 RH3 I would chop off the bass keys.  The RH-3 is stiffer than my Baldwin.  I think what Lorg did to support AT is the problems.  The SV-1 I played wasn't like this. 

 

Many other slabs I would take your approach if I wanted to reduce length.

[MathOfInsects]

48 minutes ago, cassdad said:

Good Point…. except I lose the weighted action, which, along with the sound quality, is most important to me.  Also, I can’t see any point in shifting lower than the normal 88-key low “A”, so that is a waste IMO.  Is there a 73 or 76 key board that has piano-like weighted action and killer piano sound?

Sure. That’s a common set-up. SV, NP5, ElectroHP6, Yammy P121 or CP, others I’m sure.

[AnotherScott]

36 minutes ago, cassdad said:

Is there a 73 or 76 key board that has piano-like weighted action and killer piano sound?

 

There are numerous 7x-key boards with hammer actions. Some have better sounds than others, but you can always use the boards to drive an external sound if necessary (i.e. from sound module, laptop, iPad...)

 

Yamaha: CP73, YC73, P121 (possibly discontinued)

Kurzweil: Forte 7 (possibly discontinued)

Nord Piano 5 in its 73 version, and Electro 6HP though few like that HP action (also some discontinued models you could find used)

Dexibell S4 (and discontinued models... P3, S3, S3 Pro)

Numa X PIano in its 73 version

Korg SV2-73 (and older SV1 and Grandstage)

 

These are all definitely smaller than 88s, but some are still on the heavy side (though lighter than those same boards are in their 88 configs, of course). What is the weight of your current 88 that you're trying to reduce?

 

[Leroy C]

1 hour ago, cassdad said:

Kind of a rant, but I’ve thought about this for years.  As a pianist, I prefer / demand “weighted / piano-like” action.  To get that, I’m always forced to purchase / use an 88-key board.  I’d love to be able to haul a lighter board, but am not willing to sacrifice the action (& resultant playing satisfaction).

 

Wanting a lighter / smaller board to haul (& take less stage real estate), I’ve repeatedly noticed the range of keys I normally use when I play…. my point is:  I use the low-end keys (below “E”) a LOT….  especially the low “D”, “C” and “Bb”.  Playing a keybed that ends on the lower side at “E” just doesn’t feel “right” to me, and I find myself repeatedly missing the lower notes.  I hardly ever use the top octave keys, which by the way, are just as much “thud” as pitched note (IMO).  Soooo…..  I really wish I could have a lighter weight (and smaller) board that only eliminated the top octave (which I rarely use)!  Why do they “steal” the notes from my beloved low-end?  Do most players use the top octave that much?  Rant off.

I actually read your whole post.   I agree.  As a primarily blues / rock guy, I would love a PHA-50 action Roland board with the top octave missing.

[Keepitsimple]

1 hour ago, cassdad said:

Do most players use the top octave that much?

That top octave is far more important for many players (i assume so, at least for me it is) than that far lower octave. It plays a "finishing a sentence with a period" role in many styles, whether it is improvisation or even melodies or even in classical music in some cases.

 

I would rather get a light stage piano rather than lose anything. Boards like the FP-10, RD-88, Casio PXS-6000/7000 (i'm sure i'm missing others from other brands as well) exist in the market for that reason

[MartinLeo]

1 hour ago, cassdad said:

Good Point…. except I lose the weighted action, which, along with the sound quality, is most important to me.  Also, I can’t see any point in shifting lower than the normal 88-key low “A”, so that is a waste IMO.  Is there a 73 or 76 key board that has piano-like weighted action and killer piano sound?

Nord Stage 4 73 Hammer Action

[AnotherScott]

Theory: If you're playing solo, you might miss the low keys more. If you're playing in a band with a bass player, you might miss the top keys more.

[AUSSIEKEYS]

6 hours ago, cassdad said:

Kind of a rant, but I’ve thought about this for years.  As a pianist, I prefer / demand “weighted / piano-like” action.

 

Wanting a lighter / smaller board to haul (& take less stage real estate),

 

Do most players use the top octave that much?  Rant off.

 

I agree with you. I can sacrifice the top octave but not the lower. Its hard to find anything starting on A but for a board with lower C. I could cope with that though 

 

For the want of a shorter Casio hammer action I keep threatening to pull apart my spare but damaged Casio PX330 to experiment with removing the top octave which is fortunately the damaged side of the board.

 

Such a casio has been cut down to a 61 professionally each end so its doable but by removing the top octave the screen and function buttons are all offset to the right which would do my OCD in. Hee hee. Although I could try moving the keybed within the case but depends on mounting lugs etc. Some of the top keys are slightly damaged so might be able to substitue lower keys.

 

Once my garage workshop is setup I'll experiment but alas i doubt it would still bring it in much under 10kg. My casio is a non worker exhibiting blown mother board symptoms although im wondering if it could be dislodged damage from the drop to top end of board.

 

so it wll be just an experment but Simply removing the speakers accounts for half a kilo.

 

If a modded 76 note casio come under 10kg its worth it but i think the 61 noter was around 10kg.

 

Other than doing that Ive not seen anything that floats my boat to buy and have gone to a Numa Compact 2x for lightweight schlepping in duo and keeping the Caso for more piano orientated gigs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Al Quinn]

I have a Yamaha YC73 which has an E-E range. Given the choice, I’d much prefer C-C: I really miss the low Eb, D, Db, and C. I don’t play below C on an 88 often enough that I would miss the low B, Bb, and A much.

[AnotherScott]

20 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

I have a Yamaha YC73 which has an E-E range. Given the choice, I’d much prefer C-C: I really miss the low Eb, D, Db, and C. I don’t play below C on an 88 often enough that I would miss the low B, Bb, and A much.

 

Same here, especially because--despite the hammer action--the YC73 is also a nice organ board, and to me it is "wrong" to play organ on an action where the top key is not a C. 🙂 That said, it's a strong EP board, and the 73 Rhodes was E-to-E... no way to please everyone!

[miden]

1 hour ago, Al Quinn said:

I have a Yamaha YC73 which has an E-E range. Given the choice, I’d much prefer C-C: I really miss the low Eb, D, Db, and C. I don’t play below C on an 88 often enough that I would miss the low B, Bb, and A much.

 

Yeah, I don't know where this fascination by manufacturers to make keyboards start at the low E, and not C comes from!

[TommyRude]

If you're a bass keyboard player, you'd steal keys from the top end. If you're a soprano keyboard player, steal from the bottom.

[MathOfInsects]

If you're thirsty, you need high C. If you're tired, we're talking about low G.

 

A Swiss girl is high D. People with huge ears: very low B.

[Al Quinn]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

it is "wrong" to play organ on an action where the top key is not a C

+1

[TJ Cornish]

I’m not a major needer of a weighted action, but fairly often the extra octave allows for another keyboard split, which in some circumstances saves bringing an extra board. 

[cassdad]

22 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

There are numerous 7x-key boards with hammer actions. Some have better sounds than others, but you can always use the boards to drive an external sound if necessary (i.e. from sound module, laptop, iPad...)

 

Yamaha: CP73, YC73, P121 (possibly discontinued)

Kurzweil: Forte 7 (possibly discontinued)

Nord Piano 5 in its 73 version, and Electro 6HP though few like that HP action (also some discontinued models you could find used)

Dexibell S4 (and discontinued models... P3, S3, S3 Pro)

Numa X PIano in its 73 version

Korg SV2-73 (and older SV1 and Grandstage)

 

These are all definitely smaller than 88s, but some are still on the heavy side (though lighter than those same boards are in their 88 configs, of course). What is the weight of your current 88 that you're trying to reduce?

 

MOXF8 = 31 Pounds.  I also failed to mention that I want a hardware board / self-producing sounds.  I know that I could always go with a MIDI controller and save weight and size… but then there’s the additional computer components, and I don’t have the time or the patience for all the hookups…. and I’ve tried playing using the Macbook Pro or iPad Pro… and neither provides the “at one with the instrument” kind of feel I get when playing a hardware board.  YMMV.

[cassdad]

22 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

There are numerous 7x-key boards with hammer actions. Some have better sounds than others, but you can always use the boards to drive an external sound if necessary (i.e. from sound module, laptop, iPad...)

 

Yamaha: CP73, YC73, P121 (possibly discontinued)

Kurzweil: Forte 7 (possibly discontinued)

Nord Piano 5 in its 73 version, and Electro 6HP though few like that HP action (also some discontinued models you could find used)

Dexibell S4 (and discontinued models... P3, S3, S3 Pro)

Numa X PIano in its 73 version

Korg SV2-73 (and older SV1 and Grandstage)

 

These are all definitely smaller than 88s, but some are still on the heavy side (though lighter than those same boards are in their 88 configs, of course). What is the weight of your current 88 that you're trying to reduce?

 

I pulled up every board listed here = the bottom key on all of them is “E”….. which is exactly my point….  they eliminated the bottom keys that I normally use.

[cassdad]

21 hours ago, MartinLeo said:

Nord Stage 4 73 Hammer Action

I pulled it up, and the Nord Stage 4 73 still has exactly the problem at hand = the lowest key is “E” (not “A” as I’d prefer).

[MathOfInsects]

What percentage of the time would you say you are playing the lowest A on a piano/keyboard? I can't envision a playing scenario that would call for multiple forays down to that note. I'm curious how you use it.

[cassdad]

6 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

What percentage of the time would you say you are playing the lowest A on a piano/keyboard? I can't envision a playing scenario that would call for multiple forays down to that note. I'm curious how you use it.

Agreed, of course… but as others have stated…. at least they could give me down to “C”.  Yes, low “B”, “Bb” and “A” are played just “for comfort”…. and even then, usually very lightly, as, like the top octave, they become more “thud” than tone.

[MathOfInsects]

What if you set up a layer/split that you brought in as needed, where, starting with the Eb above that lowest E, you added the same piano patch an octave lower. Then you could play the one you have and still get the sonic benefit you're looking for from that lower octave. 

[cassdad]

Just now, MathOfInsects said:

What if you set up a layer/split that you brought in as needed, where, starting with the Eb above that lowest E, you added the same piano patch an octave lower. Then you could play the one you have and still get the sonic benefit you're looking for from that lower octave. 

Yup, that would work…. but seems like a lot of switching, etc…. that doesn’t compare in ease to just having the keys I want there to be there.  I think the former suggest of at least having the keys go down to low “C” is a good compromise.  

[MathOfInsects]

Just now, cassdad said:

Yup, that would work…. but seems like a lot of switching, etc…. that doesn’t compare in ease to just having the keys I want there to be there.  I think the former suggest of at least having the keys go down to low “C” is a good compromise.  

Right, but that board doesn't exist. Many boards that could fit the bill, perhaps with a little bit of adjustment, do exist. So I'm just trying to see if we can get you what you want without manufacturing a brand new keybed from scratch. Call me crazy but that latter option seems like it would be time-intensive to me. 

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, cassdad said:

MOXF8 = 31 Pounds.

 

Yeah, the only 7x models I listed that will be lighter are the Yamahas, Numa X, the HP Nord's that many don't like, and some (all?) of the older Dexibels.

 

4 hours ago, cassdad said:

 I also failed to mention that I want a hardware board / self-producing sounds...and I’ve tried playing using the Macbook Pro or iPad Pro… and neither provides the “at one with the instrument” kind of feel I get when playing a hardware board.

 

All the models I mentioned have internal sounds, though the range of sounds varies. The extent to which external sounds can "integrate" with internal sounds also varies.

 

4 hours ago, cassdad said:

I pulled up every board listed here = the bottom key on all of them is “E”….. which is exactly my point….  they eliminated the bottom keys that I normally use.

 

Right, but they have the octave shift (or at least most of them do). Operated in that mode, okay, you get 5 more "useless" low keys (outside of the range of an 88), but you do get all the keys you want... if you can live with losing more top keys. A 73 operated this way would cost you not the top 12 keys (octave) of an 88, but rather the top 20 keys. But maybe you could live with that, at least as long as you had the ability to switch it out when the top keys have more importance than the low. If there's a 76 rather than 73 that could work for you, you'd pick up a few more up top.

[pawelsz]

CME UF7 or UF70 was nice format: 76-keys A-C.

For some reason Dexibell chose 68 keys on S1. Matches high E from Rhodes and low A from piano but in different octave. Matches low A from Wurlitzer.

 

Could be also 80 keys A-E or 77 keys C-E or 80 C-G

 

Funny thing, I played a lot on 76-key E-G DGX-305 from Yamaha. I sometimes find that high F missing on standard 73 E-E action

[Delaware Dave]

17 hours ago, miden said:

 

Yeah, I don't know where this fascination by manufacturers to make keyboards start at the low E, and not C comes from!

 

A 4 string bass' lowest note is E, that is probably where it came from.

[jarrell]

I think the E-E range comes from the Rhodes, where the idea was to lose both a little from the top (8 notes) and bottom (7 notes).

 

C-C weighted 73 would be my ideal. Perfect for left hand bass, could live without top octave, or shift as necessary.