Using MIDI to program scenes over 2 keyboards

[rockit31]

I have and play live with both a Roland RD2000 and a Yamaha MX88.     One of my biggest issues when gigging is the time it takes me to setup patches (scenes, programs) on each board for a particular song.    I have been told that MIDI makes this quiite easy and that with a push of a button I can program both boards to bring up the necessary patches and settings very quickly.

 

I have next to no knowledge of MIDI and trying to learn and glean what I can from the internet just leaves me lost in the weeds.

 

First question,   Do I need to buy another device  "midi controller" to perform what I need done?    Or can this be initiated by either one of my boards?   I have been told that both boards can act as a midi controller.   But not sure if this is true or not.   

 

 

[J.F.N.]

8 minutes ago, rockit31 said:

I have and play live with both a Roland RD2000 and a Yamaha MX88.     One of my biggest issues when gigging is the time it takes me to setup patches (scenes, programs) on each board for a particular song.    I have been told that MIDI makes this quiite easy and that with a push of a button I can program both boards to bring up the necessary patches and settings very quickly.

 

I have next to no knowledge of MIDI and trying to learn and glean what I can from the internet just leaves me lost in the weeds.

 

First question,   Do I need to buy another device  "midi controller" to perform what I need done?    Or can this be initiated by either one of my boards?   I have been told that both boards can act as a midi controller.   But not sure if this is true or not.   

 

 

 

For years I've been thinking about grabbing one of these to make life a lot easier in mentioned dept.

 

http://www.musictechnologiesgroup.com/midipatch.htm

[wineandkeyz]

You don't really need another device. Your RD-2000 can be set up to send MIDI patch changes to the MX88. See page 17 of the Parameter Guide, "Using the RD-2000 as a Master Keyboard." There are instructions there for setting a zone as External and then sending bank and patch changes.

[AnotherScott]

As W&K says, the Roland can serve to change the sounds on both boards (but not the other way around, since the MX does not have that capability). Alternatively, you can use a smartphone or tablet or other device to change the sound on both boards, too.

[Motif88]

3 hours ago, wineandkeyz said:

You don't really need another device. Your RD-2000 can be set up to send MIDI patch changes to the MX88. See page 17 of the Parameter Guide, "Using the RD-2000 as a Master Keyboard." There are instructions there for setting a zone as External and then sending bank and patch changes.

As a former RD-2000 owner, you beat me to it… There’s probably an Ed Diaz video on YT. I’ll try to find it.

[Baldwin Funster]

I'd try out easier stuff first like using one keyboard to play sound from the other one just so you get your hands on some midi channels and start to understand the midi innards of your boards. Setting up Program Change can be diving in at the deep end. Especially if you have to put in bank addresses. Some stuff requires knowing something about sysex.

[nursers]

It's somewhat overkill but I use MainStage to do that - sends MIDI changes to each board as i change songs in MainStage

[AUSSIEKEYS]

11 hours ago, J.F.N. said:

 

For years I've been thinking about grabbing one of these to make life a lot easier in mentioned dept.

 

http://www.musictechnologiesgroup.com/midipatch.htm

 

Long time out of production I believe.

 

I actually have one here in Australia and its very rare here and i got it off a felow Aussie forumite.

 

 

Coincidentally i just pulled it out of storage to see if i want to use it Live. You can do multi patch changes but cant store zone ranges 

[J.F.N.]

1 hour ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

 

Long time out of production I believe.

 

I actually have one here in Australia and its very rare here and i got it off a felow Aussie forumite.

 

 

Coincidentally i just pulled it out of storage to see if i want to use it Live. You can do multi patch changes but cant store zone ranges 

 

I think he builds them in batches every now and then, we have been in communication a couple of times. Yeah, you can program standard midi stuff in it, from the page:

 

 - Preset mode sends program-change-per-MIDI-channel as well as Bank Select on all 16 channels simultaneously -- per preset.

 

 - Send 180 bytes of MIDI data of your choice ...controller data, system exclusive, RPN, NRPN or anything! ... per Preset. (v3.00+)

 

 - Holds 200 Presets. (v3.00+)

 

 

[AUSSIEKEYS]

32 minutes ago, J.F.N. said:

 

I think he builds them in batches every now and then, we have been in communication a couple of times. Yeah, you can program standard midi stuff in it, from the page:

 

 - Preset mode sends program-change-per-MIDI-channel as well as Bank Select on all 16 channels simultaneously -- per preset.

 

 - Send 180 bytes of MIDI data of your choice ...controller data, system exclusive, RPN, NRPN or anything! ... per Preset. (v3.00+)

 

 - Holds 200 Presets. (v3.00+)

 

 

 

Well that sounds good. Wasnt his name Grant something.

 

I havent found a way to send the midi data of your choice. But mine would be an old version although the blurb with says you can. 

 

Mines the Genovation 900mpc which i think is the same but early version??

[Reezekeys]

13 hours ago, rockit31 said:

I have been told that MIDI makes this quiite easy and that with a push of a button I can program both boards to bring up the necessary patches and settings very quickly.

 

It's not midi, it's knowing how to store presets you make on each keyboard. The RD2000 and MX88 surely let you save a setup once you've programmed it. Just save into the same memory number on both keyboards for each song. Assign one keyboard to be the "master" and ensure it sends midi program change messages. How to send this message varies with each keyboard - could be a button, or a sequence of keys on a keypad (I'm not familiar with your keyboards). Let's say a particular song has been programmed into memory #2 of each keyboard; with the master keyboard's midi connected to the other one, pressing the button to send program change #2 on the master should call up the appropriate presets on both keyboards.

 

There is more to this and I can understand how it might be daunting to a midi-neophyte! Playing notes on the master keyboard will usually play the same notes on the connected one - which is something you might want but more likely will not want. That gets you into the concept of "zoning" each keyboard, or programming certain ranges to send on different midi channels, or having certain zones only transmit through midi but not sound on the keyboard you're playing (that's called "local on-off.") How complicated this gets depends entirely on what's required of you for a particular song - or what you're willing to compromise on to be able to enjoy playing the gig vs being a glorified button pusher. Good luck!

[AUSSIEKEYS]

1 hour ago, J.F.N. said:

 

 

 - Send 180 bytes of MIDI data of your choice ...controller data, system exclusive, RPN, NRPN or anything! ... per Preset. (v3.00+)

 

 - Holds 200 Presets. (v3.00+)

 

 

 

Thats a big improvement

 

Arbitrary MIDI Data for my early model states "Each Preset can also send up to 16 bytes of arbitrary MIDI data before or after the patch change data. This data cannot be edited on the device at this time."

 

But i cant access it via computer as last I looked they had long ago removed the windows editor files when Genovation sold it to MTG.

 

So MTGs files i believe are for their more modern version. So Im in the dark about how or what it can do there.

 

I think mine has 99 presets

[Reezekeys]

There's no iOS or Android app that does this?

[J.F.N.]

1 hour ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

 

Thats a big improvement

 

Arbitrary MIDI Data for my early model states "Each Preset can also send up to 16 bytes of arbitrary MIDI data before or after the patch change data. This data cannot be edited on the device at this time."

 

But i cant access it via computer as last I looked they had long ago removed the windows editor files when Genovation sold it to MTG.

 

So MTGs files i believe are for their more modern version. So Im in the dark about how or what it can do there.

 

I think mine has 99 presets

 

Sounds like dropping a mail to MTG would be a good idea ?

[AUSSIEKEYS]

20 minutes ago, J.F.N. said:

 

Sounds like dropping a mail to MTG would be a good idea ?

 

Yeah thanks. i had posted on here years ago when i got this and someone said same thing.

 

But I am reluctant to ask that of a small cottage industry business about a legacy product that was pre his ownership. I dont think its fair to him.

 

At moment im about to evaluate its use for my current duo work but as its unlikely an upgrade can apply key range zoning I think most of its use to me is a 10 digit program changer.

 

The ideal device would be a Sipario with a 10 digit pad on it. But Sipario never came here and too expensive to import considering it hasnt got the 10 digit pad built in.

 

Bemoaning the lack of 10 digit pads on all modern controller keyboards.

 

So to the OP what ever system you use make sure you are happy how you can access programs easily. 

 

To me scrolling to a program is rediculous.

 

My early model is good what it does for the reasonable used price I paid for it from a fellow forumite.

 

To the OP id be surprised if either of your keyboards couldn't do what you want and act as a master. I did a quick look up and both have zoning functions so id be surprised if each zoning setup cant be sent via midi to another keyboard to change patches. 

[Stokely]

Yeah depends on each board.

I haven't tried it out yet, as recently I've been using just the Nord stage 3 at gigs, but iirc the NS3 can send out program changes per-patch.  Meaning, if I pull up the "Main Piano" patch on the NS3 I can associate a midi program change with it.   

The trick may be that you probably need more than just a program change--these are 0-127 (or 1-128 depending), so with keyboards with more patches than that you need to first send bank information....so essentially two messages.   How you do all that would be up to the sending keyboard.   Of course you'll need to identify what numbers to send to reach your desired patch on the receiving one.

It's certainly something I intend doing when I add a 2nd keyboard soon.   I've only ever changed patches manually live, which is pretty crazy when I think about it!  I used to teach midi labs and have worked with midi a lot, so it was more out of laziness and "eh, this works!" than anything else that I didn't try it before.

Of course you can use something external to do it, like that Behringer foot pedal or a tablet running an app. I tested Midiflow on my ipad connected via a usb hub to two keyboards, and it could send program changes and a lot more.  I'd prefer to keep it keyboard to keyboard though.

If your goal is program changes only, you might have the issue of triggering the other keyboard's notes when you don't want to!     Personally I don't intend to do that with my two, I just want one of them (NS3) to change the patches of the other and then they stand alone.   

[jerrythek]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

There's no iOS or Android app that does this?

I do this using a PDF/Score reader. IGigbook can do it, but only a Program Change, not a Bank plus Program Change. I switched to unRealBook since it supports Bank Changes as well. Set List Maker can also do it. I'm sure there are others.

 

Jerry

[rockit31]

Yeah,  both boards can be split into zones just for for one song,   The mx isnt as robust as the rd2000 and can only have 2 zones while the rd can have 8.   I have been diving into the manual last night and am learning that the rd is a feature rich board!    I even downloaded a couple of the addon patch modules that are on the roland axial site for free and now have another 200 plus patches!   I also dropped 150 bucks for the 17 ap german piano patches that come highly recommended as the main ap patches that come with the rd never made me happy.   Definitely worth the money as these new patches sound much better.  And now i have learned that all patches are easily tweekable via either eq adjustments or using the tone designer function that really digs into the nuances of an acoustic piano.   This really is some board!    Now to peruse the parameter guide as mentioned earlier and see if i cant figure out how to setup the midi.    I know my bandmates will appteciate this if i can make this happen. Lead guitarist has nasty habit of starting in on the next song as i furiously bring up settings for next song.   Rat bastard!   Lol.   No respect for the piano player!   

[AUSSIEKEYS]

6 hours ago, rockit31 said:

I know my bandmates will appteciate this if i can make this happen. Lead guitarist has nasty habit of starting in on the next song as i furiously bring up settings for next song.   Rat bastard!   Lol.   No respect for the piano player!   

 

Hee hee isnt it always the way. I think your heading down the right track delving into your keyboards more

 

Just a heads up im probrably wrong here but I read the MX had 16 tracks on a quick read.

 

check into that as it sounds like more a workstation so it may be feature rich in midi stuff. I dont know anything more about that keyboard but hoping either will get you thru without adding extra gear.

[stoken6]

18 hours ago, rockit31 said:

Lead guitarist has nasty habit of starting in on the next song as i furiously bring up settings for next song.   Rat bastard!   Lol.   No respect for the piano player!   

Do you know, I wish more guitarists would do this. Most of the ones I know will

1. wait for cheers to die down#
2. ask everyone in the band individually if they're ready
3. count the song in
4. start the song, which is often a guitar-only riff

This kills the vibe on the dancefloor in club, wedding and function gigs. (It's more appropriate in tribute-type performances).

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Delaware Dave]

3 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Do you know, I wish more guitarists would do this. Most of the ones I know will

1. wait for cheers to die down#
2. ask everyone in the band individually if they're ready
3. count the song in
4. start the song, which is often a guitar-only riff

This kills the vibe on the dancefloor in club, wedding and function gigs. (It's more appropriate in tribute-type performances).

 

Cheers, Mike.

 

Exactly.  That's the fastest way to lose a dance floor.  My drummer is clicking 1,2,3,4 before the current song is completely finished, i have my keyboard arranged so that all the instruments i use on a song appear on the same screen (rhodes, clav, brass as an example).  I just move to that screen and my instruments are there.  Kurz has QA banks and Favorites, both are banks of 10 instruments.  This allows me to quickly move to the instruments needed for the next song.  Where i get pissed off is when our newest singer audibles the songs (based on how he reads the crowd) 3 seconds before the next song is started. Then i have to find the bank needed for that song and have 2 seconds to make the switch. 

[Stokely]

22 hours ago, rockit31 said:

Lead guitarist has nasty habit of starting in on the next song as i furiously bring up settings for next song.   Rat bastard!   Lol.   No respect for the piano player!   

Arrrrggghhh this drives me nuts.   

Generally only a problem when we go off script from our set list for that night, whether because our singer "reads the audience" and thinks we should, or a request.  Plus we are breaking in a new drummer and a few times we've nixed songs on the list if he feels sketchy on it.

I've gotten good at preparing ahead otherwise, with one keyboard it can be a challenge.  Patch remain helps a ton, hold that last chord while you scroll scroll scroll.   Our set lists differ from gig to gig and I've found it's better to keep my patches where I know they are, vs re-doing them each time.

Regardless, what has happened is that suddenly a song like the Motels'  Only the Lonely (which I start) is called....I'm not quite ready, so the guitarist just starts it which sounds....weird.  I join in quickly but still...

[obxa]

Sounds like using the gear you have will work. But If considering IOS:   As mentioned other  most simple set/song apps can do midi, or you can get a dedicated Midi program changer  and call up via cable or bluetooth..  I've done both.  I end up with charts on most shows, so Forscore for me.    I like the way it calls up the patches with  page turn of each song, and also allows virtual  push buttons over sections. Works great when needing to switch from Marcatto to Legato on string patches within a tune.

 

Though I may have a few specially oddball patches, heavily recycle patches on most shows, where same  string patch on Nord or piano sound on YC is used in other songs.  Also use Mainstage as  third sound source., but call everything up from Forscore. 

 In the middle of programming a Motown Revue show, and this is the first time I've used  Forscore to send changes to all 3 devices, all via Bluetooth.  I somtimes let the Nord stage send changes to Mainstage via it's external section, since those two are usually doing similar things.

 

 

Couple of IOS apps if you don't use charts-  goes from simple free- to complex

Keypad style FREE

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/program-changer/id1384097207.  

 

 

This

 

And this beast....

 

 

[AnotherScott]

 

7 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

It's not midi, it's knowing how to store presets you make on each keyboard. The RD2000 and MX88 surely let you save a setup once you've programmed it. Just save into the same memory number on both keyboards for each song.

That may or may not work. I'd say you still have to know something about MIDI, even to figure out whether it will work, or possibly what settings you have to change to make it work. But in the end, even *if* it worked with this keyboard combination, it would be better to use the features designed to specifically facilitate this kind of usage, if the board has them (and the RD-2000 does). There are numerous drawbacks to the "brute force" method you describe, even if it can be a useful solution when the boards don't present anything better.

 

5 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

There's no iOS or Android app that does this?

Yes, there are plenty. There was actually a recent thread about this at https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/188826-sending-midi-messages-to-motif-rack-with-ios-device/#comment-2997431 - - that was for sending a MIDI Program Change to a single device, but most of the solutions there can also send to multiple devices. 

 

4 hours ago, Stokely said:

Yeah depends on each board.

I haven't tried it out yet, as recently I've been using just the Nord stage 3 at gigs, but iirc the NS3 can send out program changes per-patch.  Meaning, if I pull up the "Main Piano" patch on the NS3 I can associate a midi program change with it.

Yes... actually each NS3 patch can send out two Program Changes to external devices; the OPs' RD2000 can send out 8, I believe.

 

1 hour ago, rockit31 said:

The mx isnt as robust as the rd2000 and can only have 2 zones while the rd can have 8.

The MX can actually have 16 zones if you use the PC/Mac editor available from John Melas. They can be split/layered as you like, though only four parts can have insert effects on them.

 

 

[Phil-E-Phil]

On 5/2/2024 at 10:13 AM, jerrythek said:

I do this using a PDF/Score reader. IGigbook can do it, but only a Program Change, not a Bank plus Program Change. I switched to unRealBook since it supports Bank Changes as well. Set List Maker can also do it. I'm sure there are others.

 

Jerry

 

According to my tests you can send a Bank Change and a Program Change using iGigBook, provided you have assigned the Program Change to a MIDI Event and the Bank Change to a separate MIDI Event.  The page would have two MIDI events assigned to it.  Bank Change to a drum kit followed by a Program Change for the type of drum kit.  If you would like further help with this, tap the heart icon and contact us.

[jerrythek]

12 hours ago, Phil-E-Phil said:

 

According to my tests you can send a Bank Change and a Program Change using iGigBook, provided you have assigned the Program Change to a MIDI Event and the Bank Change to a separate MIDI Event.  The page would have two MIDI events assigned to it.  Bank Change to a drum kit followed by a Program Change for the type of drum kit.  If you would like further help with this, tap the heart icon and contact us.

Hi Phil:

 

Thanks for responding. I was dealing with this a number of years ago now (probably 2016 or so), and I recall that back then I was just making the assignment to the page itself… I don’t recall any way to access events per se… But I guess either I missed something, or the app’s feature set has progressed since then. Anyway, this is great news - thanks for the info. I’ll have to go back and check it out. To be honest, I found your interface/design the most friendly and clean of the choices, and only use the other when I needed that MIDI capability. I’ll reach out.

 

Thanks again!

 

Jerry

[Phil-E-Phil]

On 5/7/2024 at 2:56 AM, jerrythek said:

Hi Phil:

 

Thanks for responding. I was dealing with this a number of years ago now (probably 2016 or so), and I recall that back then I was just making the assignment to the page itself… I don’t recall any way to access events per se… But I guess either I missed something, or the app’s feature set has progressed since then. Anyway, this is great news - thanks for the info. I’ll have to go back and check it out. To be honest, I found your interface/design the most friendly and clean of the choices, and only use the other when I needed that MIDI capability. I’ll reach out.

 

Thanks again!

 

Jerry

 

The MIDI Events Editor in iGigBook lets you create named events which contain the Bank Select and Program Change code.  For example:

 

Sound Effects Kit on a Yamaha QY100 = B0 00 7E B0 20 00 C0 01

 

Bank Select MSB = B0 00 7E

Bank Select LSB = B0 20 00

Program Change = C0 01

 

How To Send MIDI Events

[Tusker]

On 5/2/2024 at 12:11 PM, rockit31 said:

Yeah,  both boards can be split into zones just for for one song,   The mx isnt as robust as the rd2000 and can only have 2 zones while the rd can have 8.   I have been diving into the manual last night and am learning that the rd is a feature rich board!  

You are on the right track. 👍

 

As others have said, “RD as master keyboard” is the most bullet proof way of building your set list without the complexity of an additional device. 
 

Practice three related but separate skills:

 

1 Connecting your two boards with midi cables (i.e. using midi).
- Use this connection for a variety of purposes, like using one keyboard to perform sounds on the other, but also to select sounds on the other.

2 Layering and zoning on both boards.
- Explore their multi-timbral capabilities and develop your personal sonic preferences. Which sounds do you prefer on which board? (BTW, MX should give you 16 different simultaneous timbres in performance mode, no?)

 

3 Using the RD as a master keyboard to pull up a particular sound  or sound combination on the MX.

 

- Use this ability so that you hit one button on the RD, the sounds get called up on both boards and the next song is ready to go.

- The only cable you need is one from the MIDI out of the RD to the MIDI in of the MX.

 

Generally, you need to be comfortable with skills 1 and 2 to get the most out of skill 3. Hope this helps. Keep us posted on your adventures. 

[Tusker]

On 5/1/2024 at 8:31 PM, Motif88 said:

There’s probably an Ed Diaz video on YT.

 

Good idea! Ed is the man! This should get our OP started ...