I need a "reasonable" keyboard amp. Help needed

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, harmonizer said:

I view powered speaker wattage ratings as a lie.

The problem is that people think the number = how loud it will go (and that manufacturers take advantage of that misconception in their marketing).

 

Part of it is that wattage can be measured in different ways (peak vs. continuous; over different frequency ranges; at different levels of distortion), so you may or may not be comparing "the same" wattage spec between devices. Then there's the fact that some systems have multiple amps (i.e. a biamped system that has separate power for the low and high frequency drivers), and then manufacturers may use a number that is the sum of both amplifiers' output. Then there is the fact that biamped models may use two channels of a stereo amp that puts out the same power per channel, even though the HF driver will never see more than a fraction of the power the LF driver sees. (Your 800 watt EV, I believe, is 400 watts to the LF driver and 400 watts to the HF driver... but the HF driver probably never sees more than 10% of that). Then, when an amp is not purchased separately but instead comes permanently mated to the speakers, the efficiency of the speaker can make a big difference. (100 watts into a speaker with a 95 dB efficiency spec yields the same volume as 800 watts into a speaker with 86 dB efficiency). Then there can be differences in input sensitivity. Some PA speakers expect only a +4 signal, while a keyboard amp expects -10.

 

So basically, yeah, in most cases, comparing power specs between different integrated systems is pretty pointless. What you want to look for are the SPL figures, but not every mfr provides those (and evem then, they can be measured different ways).

 

54 minutes ago, The Piano Man said:

But I would still pay good money for a keyboard amp in the style of the KC but designed and made by QSC, EV or equivalent. 

That's why Motion Sound exists.

[Delaware Dave]

15 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

That's why Motion Sound exists.

 

Until you need parts or service at which point they are mostly non-existent....

[Sam Mullins]

1 hour ago, Chris Link said:

Stereo in one box and only 40 lbs. 

 

Motion Sound KP-408SX

for $1200.  OP wanted $400-700 range.

[Reezekeys]

These "recommend me" posts always seem to devolve into everyone simply chiming in with whatever amplification system they use. Which is exactly what I did of course 🙂 , except my suggestion actually coincided with the OP's needs - solo piano, no singing, an assisted living facility, 50 people max. Not exactly the kind of gig needing heavy guns. I will get my ass booted out of any assisted living place if I turn up my TX308s to the volume they're capable of. Sure they don't sound too good at those levels but you're never gonna get near them on that kind of gig. I still have my QSC K8s and use them when I think I need the headroom - which for me is not very often these days.

 

I do understand the single stereo box being a convenience, but as has been pointed out it's pretty expensive and imo it's easier to carry two very light speakers than one heavier one - due to body mechanics, center of gravity, etc.

[drawback]

KC220 is 16lb, stereo, sized for the room and in budget. Also versatile in that it will output to any PA, and utilized as a stereo monitor. 
 

[The Piano Man]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

The problem is that people think the number = how loud it will go (and that manufacturers take advantage of that misconception in their marketing).

 

Part of it is that wattage can be measured in different ways (peak vs. continuous; over different frequency ranges; at different levels of distortion), so you may or may not be comparing "the same" wattage spec between devices. Then there's the fact that some systems have multiple amps (i.e. a biamped system that has separate power for the low and high frequency drivers), and then manufacturers may use a number that is the sum of both amplifiers' output. Then there is the fact that biamped models may use two channels of a stereo amp that puts out the same power per channel, even though the HF driver will never see more than a fraction of the power the LF driver sees. (Your 800 watt EV, I believe, is 400 watts to the LF driver and 400 watts to the HF driver... but the HF driver probably never sees more than 10% of that). Then, when an amp is not purchased separately but instead comes permanently mated to the speakers, the efficiency of the speaker can make a big difference. (100 watts into a speaker with a 95 dB efficiency spec yields the same volume as 800 watts into a speaker with 86 dB efficiency). Then there can be differences in input sensitivity. Some PA speakers expect only a +4 signal, while a keyboard amp expects -10.

 

So basically, yeah, in most cases, comparing power specs between different integrated systems is pretty pointless. What you want to look for are the SPL figures, but not every mfr provides those (and evem then, they can be measured different ways).

 

That's why Motion Sound exists.

No, not for me. In the UK, at least, the cheapest single Motion Sound is more than a pair of DXR8s and about the same price as a pair of QSC K10.2s. I don’t think they are worth that price.

[AnotherScott]

7 minutes ago, The Piano Man said:

No, not for me. In the UK, at least, the cheapest single Motion Sound is more than a pair of DXR8s and about the same price as a pair of QSC K10.2s. I don’t think they are worth that price.

 

Well, you did say it was something you'd "pay good money for." 🙂

[Reezekeys]

16 minutes ago, drawback said:

KC220 is 16lb, stereo, sized for the room and in budget. Also versatile in that it will output to any PA, and utilized as a stereo monitor.

 

I'd be curious to hear it. Looking at the specs gives me pause though - 15 watts/side? the other thing about these "all in one" stereo boxes is that you can't have what I consider the ideal placement - a separate channel on each side of my head! It's definitely light & versatile, as you mention.

[The Piano Man]

5 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

 

Well, you did say it was something you'd "pay good money for." 🙂

Indeed, I’d pay good money not bad money. I’d definitely rather have 2 K8s or DXR8s, no question!

 

The Roland KC200 is about £400. A pair of K10.2s are about £1400. I’d say there’s scope for a high quality keyboard amp at around the £900 mark

[obxa]

I think we can all agree:  There are great keyboards out there, but stands and keyboard amps just never quite hit the mark.  

 

BTW- One caveat on the Altos, don't get too exited about the eq. Works fine but it's not variable, just custom curves ( I think... haven't booted it up in a while...)  I tend to rely more on whatever keyboard I'm using on board EQ.

[D. Gauss]

Imo, that roland is way overpriced and underpowered. Same money gets you a QSC CP8.  you could get a used fishman loudbox mini for 100 bucks and do the gig just fine. Just saying...

[DroptopBroham]

The Roland KC220 is perfect for the type of gig you're talking about. It's light, inexpensive and stereo. Me, I'd go for two KC400's stereo linked that mainly for the extra power, bass and flexibility it you should ever play bigger rooms or join a band and need one for stage monitoring. But the 220 is golden for this type of work.

 

You are going to be disappointed going the powered PA speaker route like these guys are saying, especially going with something cheap like Alto or Harbinger. PA speakers are too cold and directional. The current batch of Roland KC amps are warm and sound balls out amazing. You can't go wrong picking a Roland, worth it every time.

[Chris Link]

5 hours ago, Sam Mullins said:

for $1200.  OP wanted $400-700 range.

Ouch. Mine is pretty old and I didn't know they'd gotten so pricey!

[Chris Link]

Here's a Motion Sound stereo amp close to your price range. $749. 38 lbs.

 

Probably plenty of power for what you need.

 

This is what I was thinking of but I didn't see it on the MS website.

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KP100S--motion-sound-keypro-kp-100s-100w-2x8-inch-keyboard-amp

[obxa]

Totally missed the part about assisted living places.   Do weekly  "mocktail" hours at few place here in Atl.   Use older Bose L1 compact.  I was struggling with its sound with Numa X piano, but back to liking it again.with the Yamaha YC.  The new ones are better, but wouldn't bring it for a full out band gig unless it's low impact jazz-acoustic.  I sometimes don't even set up the extension. 

 

As OP probably knows, some of these places often  have nicer grands than hotels or country clubs.  For those  often  just  lay a mic on a piece of foam near the middle of the harp into the Bose and call it a day.  Even with my clarinet guy, it's plenty loud. 

 

Super easy load and setup for these kind of gigs.  Especially for challenging dining room or atrium setups, or the fact the heat is always on 120 degrees  

[cphollis]

23 hours ago, Mel Salvatore said:

recently picked up a small gig with an assisted living company that has several locations that don’t have a house piano

 

23 hours ago, Mel Salvatore said:

It would be about 50 people max at one time but mostly less as people will be in and out, sitting, standing, eating, drinking, etc. The rooms are approximately 12'x26' (I counted ceiling tiles).  So not too big.

 

Small solo piano gigs like these (where you're the background music) are ideal for a small column speaker.  It ends up sounding more balanced and natural in the room, even in mono.  Small and lightweight, too!

 

For example, a single Turbosound iNSPIRE iP300 punches way above its small size and weight.  Similar models have small subs if you're concerned about bass response.  I use a Bose L1 Model 1S for solo acoustic gigs, but that's way more than you'd need. 

 

I wouldn't bring a typical pair of PA speakers (or a keyboard amp) because both are too directional -- they're designed to be aimed at a listener.  By comparison, the wide-dispersion columnar speakers fill the entire room with a pleasant sound that's more reminiscent of how an acoustic piano projects sound.

[1203]

https://www.roland.com/global/products/sa-300/
 

Unfortunately, they are no longer produced here. Very good sounding stereo all in one solution for keyboardists.

 

[Adan]

Last night I used my KC 220 for a weekly solo piano gig.  Previously I'd been bringing my Mackie Thumps, but that's 4 things to carry including the stands. This is a moderately difficult load in, walking a fair ways and a flight of stairs.  Also, it's the middle of Vermont winter, so fewer trips is better. Typical audience is around 50 people. The room is expansive but very hot acoustically. The KC was plenty loud enough, and though it didn't have the clarity of the Mackie's I'm convinced it didn't make any difference to the audience (they liked it).  As usual with my solo piano gigs, success depends more on my preparation and attitude than having pristine amplification. An easier in and out definitely helps with the attitude.

 

I'm not here to say Roland amps are great. I want nothing to do with most of them.  But the KC 220 is a nifty tool for some applications.

[drawback]

7 hours ago, 1203 said:

https://www.roland.com/global/products/sa-300/
 

Unfortunately, they are no longer produced here. Very good sounding stereo all in one solution for keyboardists.

 

I had one of those, and very much regret selling it. One of the reasons I bought the KC220 was to replicate the SA300 by adding a small sub. I’m pretty sure AnotherScott still has his!

[Mel Salvatore]

3 hours ago, Adan said:

Last night I used my KC 220 for a weekly solo piano gig. 

 

Hi Adan, quick question for you;  Do you use a tripod speaker stand for your KC-220 or the tilt-up arm stand on the floor?   Also Roland KC-220 manual reads "The KC-220 is designed to be used only in combination with a Roland-manufactured speaker stand (ST-A95). Do not use it with any other stand."  Is that true or just marketing?

I find it hard to believe that a hole in the bottom of any amp or speaker would be proprietary.  Again, I am a bit of a novice in this area. 

[1203]

2 hours ago, drawback said:

I had one of those, and very much regret selling it. One of the reasons I bought the KC220 was to replicate the SA300 by adding a small sub. I’m pretty sure AnotherScott still has his!

Yes, and as far as i know, the basic sound of the SA‘s was better than the KC amps, even without the sub.

[Adan]

23 minutes ago, Mel Salvatore said:

 

Hi Adan, quick question for you;  Do you use a tripod speaker stand for your KC-220 or the tilt-up arm stand on the floor?   Also Roland KC-220 manual reads "The KC-220 is designed to be used only in combination with a Roland-manufactured speaker stand (ST-A95). Do not use it with any other stand."  Is that true or just marketing?

I find it hard to believe that a hole in the bottom of any amp or speaker would be proprietary.  Again, I am a bit of a novice in this area. 

It's a hole in the bottom of the amp with some internal ridges.  I think it could sit on any speaker stand, but maybe this Roland stand has ridges that match up? Last night I put it on a stool.

[AnotherScott]

9 hours ago, 1203 said:

https://www.roland.com/global/products/sa-300/
 

Unfortunately, they are no longer produced here. Very good sounding stereo all in one solution for keyboardists.

 

2 hours ago, drawback said:

I had one of those, and very much regret selling it. One of the reasons I bought the KC220 was to replicate the SA300 by adding a small sub. I’m pretty sure AnotherScott still has his!

Just now, 1203 said:

Yes, and as far as i know, the basic sound of the SA‘s was better than the KC amps, even without the sub.

 

Yes to pretty much all of the above. 

 

The Alto TS sounds better than the SA300, but the SA300 just about passed my "good enough" threshold, and I really liked the convenience of it. Great form factor, easy transport, well-placed controls I could reach during performance, and even some amount of stereo. (Actually, the stereo-enhancement "wide" button worked nicely on organ, but I rarely used it because it made piano sound worse.) They were especially useful as a complete PA for my little duo/trio gigs with no drummer, where they would handle everything (keys, vocals, acoustic guitar). But I haven't used them since getting the Bose L1 Pro8, which in some ways isn't as good (mono, 3 inputs instead of 4, requires a bit more setup time to unpack and place the stick, and more setup time for the mixer if I need more than 3 inputs), but it has its own advantages (sound quality, dispersion, only one box of significant weight/size instead of two, EQ on each input instead of being global, and actually more resistant to feedback even though it doesn't have the Roland's anti-feedback feature).

 

And yes, one could use just the top portion of the SA300 (without its sub module) if a situation called for it, and that did sound better than the KC220 (but was also heavier). 

 

I actually still own two of the SA300. They're destined for Garage Sale at some point. Along with a bunch of other stuff. 😉

 

44 minutes ago, Mel Salvatore said:

Also Roland KC-220 manual reads "The KC-220 is designed to be used only in combination with a Roland-manufactured speaker stand (ST-A95). Do not use it with any other stand."  Is that true or just marketing?

 

I think it's neither. I think that's there to be sure to eliminate any liability for Roland if you use a stand it does not balance well on, and it falls over and leads to any kind of damage or injury.

 

[16251]

What about the Roland BA300?  It is kind of like the SA300 top part but double the 6.5 speakers and no sub. Which brings me to a question I have had about this amp for a while; maybe someone can answer.  I'm curious to know if the two 6.5 speakers on right/and or on left work in tandem to produce a better low frequency? (Same concept as bass cabinets with 2/10s or 4/10's.)  I have wondered why this coupling of speakers has not been used in keyboard amps. It would seem like a good way to keep a cab small and  but get bigger bass response like a 12", say if two 6.5" could give you the response of 13"?  <total layman in this area.>

[Mighty Motif Max]

I’ve done the OP’s type of gig for quite a few years. A stereo pair of 8” PA speakers will do great. Don’t worry about the power ratings for that type of gig. If it has a large power rating, you just don’t need to turn it up as much. I long used the Yamaha MSR100 model. Unfortunately that’s since been discontinued and the DXR series has increased in price a lot with inflation. The closest thing I can think of is the Yamaha DBR10. It’s a 10” speaker, but they sound great and weigh ~23 lbs apiece. A pair will run you about $800 plus tax, so just slightly over budget. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DBR10--yamaha-dbr10-700w-10-inch-powered-speaker

 

Otherwise these JBL IRX108BT speakers look promising - I have had good experiences with JBL gear in general. Same pricing as the DBR10s above, and 17.4 lbs apiece. These are 8” boxes. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/IRX108BT--jbl-irx-108bt-powered-8-inch-portable-speaker-with-bluetooth

[niacin]

2 DBRs sound great for piano, one not so much, but that goes for any PA speaker.  I think 2 Altos would be my pick for the money and tour gig.

[AnotherScott]

10 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

Otherwise these JBL IRX108BT speakers look promising - I have had good experiences with JBL gear in general. Same pricing as the DBR10s above, and 17.4 lbs apiece. These are 8” boxes.

 

I found that much cheaper Alto TS308 (now TS408) sounded much better than that particular JBL. (OTOH, the JBL PRX625 was a gem!)

[MPN21]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:50 PM, 16251 said:

What about the Roland BA300?  It is kind of like the SA300 top part but double the 6.5 speakers and no sub. Which brings me to a question I have had about this amp for a while; maybe someone can answer.  I'm curious to know if the two 6.5 speakers on right/and or on left work in tandem to produce a better low frequency? (Same concept as bass cabinets with 2/10s or 4/10's.)  I have wondered why this coupling of speakers has not been used in keyboard amps. It would seem like a good way to keep a cab small and  but get bigger bass response like a 12", say if two 6.5" could give you the response of 13"?  <total layman in this area.>

You mean the BA330 by Roland.  I have one.  I never cared for the SA300; it was too boomy and not clean.    The BA330 is a battery operated, stereo amp.   The AP sounds very good; low, mid, and high all good.   I don't know the inner working of the two 6.5 speakers on each side.  However, nice and tight bass, but I won't run a bass guitar or anything like that.   The stereo, though not a wide L/R separation coming from one box, offers very noticeable depth that is very pleasing to the ears.  The BA330 seems to check just about all the boxes for the OP with rooms to grow except that the price is slightly over his budget.     Then again, Alto seems to get a lot of love here on this forum, and I ended up buying a pair of brand new TS312s a year ago or so; they were cheaper than the TS308 .  I liked them so much that I was going to buy TS308 also, but I heard about the TS408 and decided to wait.  I heard someone say that TS308 has a warmer sound than the TS408.   What about the TX  308 for $139 each?  Several members mentioned it.  Well, if it does the job, I won't let the low price bother me.    As for me, I considered buying a Motion Sound, but having read a few posts here, I decided against it.

[Mel Salvatore]

I just looked at the BA330 online at SW and Amazon.  Looks very promising.  Yes, slightly above my price and lbs. But as MPN21 mentions room to grow if needed.  I did mention I can be flexible if worthwhile. 

 

5 hours ago, MPN21 said:

The BA330 seems to check just about all the boxes for the OP with rooms to grow except that the price is slightly over his budget.

 

 

Stereo seems to be a preference for keyboard amps as I am learning. I would like to consider that direction especially and all-in-one amp is appealing for portability. One less thing to carry.

 

However, do any of you think it matters that it was released in 2009? What else could be an upgrade if rereleased?  Bluetooth and minor redesign perhaps?  I don’t know.

  https://www.roland.com/us/company/press_releases/2010/865/

 

 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

5 hours ago, Mel Salvatore said:

However, do any of you think it matters that it was released in 2009? What else could be an upgrade if rereleased?  Bluetooth and minor redesign perhaps?  I don’t know.

 

In the case of a PPA, the fact it was released in 2009 wouldn't concern me. A computer, yea I wouldn't get one from 2009 - but a PPA is an amp, preamp, and speakers in a box. There have been refinements of course, and bluetooth is one that's fairly recent. But PPAs in plastic cabinets with class-D amps have been around since the 1990s (I got my Mackie SRM450s in 1999).

 

The BA330's hook is that it's battery operated and has a mixer with more than one channel to plug things into - neither of these features being things you specified as needed in your initial post. It seems like you're succumbing to the "what if" and "you never know" scenarios that always crop up when deciding on a bigger purchase. I've been there myself. I'm still going to say that for the money, the little Alto TX308s would be the way to go. That BA330 claims to have 30 watts total output - 15 watts per side. While I know that wattage ratings are somewhat suspect, I'm still pretty sure that the Altos, being rated at 350 watts each will most definitely cover any possible gig you'd do at a retirement home. That's 700 watts vs 30 - a major difference if you ask me. True, it's two pieces to carry instead of one which may be a negative, but my two 308s together weigh 6 lbs less than the BA330. I still can't get over how light these speakers are! Not to mention that Roland amp costs almost 3x what my two TX308s cost! Yes they are very basic pieces of kit - definitely no frills! I wouldn't recommend them for a DP that had no EQ controls, but yours does. I just did a gig with a "little big band" (seven horns & a rhythm section) and they more than held their own - I don't think that BA330 would have cut it.