I declined an offer to play

[Jose EB5AGV]

I play on a pop/rock band (80s+ covers and band originals) for two years now, just for fun (I spend quite a lot more in music gear than I earn playing 😅, and money is not my goal)

 

Today, the drummer has offered me to play keys on a Queen musical at his former high school. It will be on 26th March. He will play drums.

 

The reason for me to decline the offer is lack of time (although that could be more or less solved) and, the most important, lack of capability to do it. I feel far from ready to do that kind of thing. I know there would be some young players of other instruments from the school, and the idea is for more seasoned musicians to support them. But I don't feel like a seasoned musician, but as a beginner with limited experience playing live with the first and unique band I have ever played.

 

I feel sad for not being able to do it. It is a reality check for me. And it hurts 😔

 

Well, the only thing I can do is to keep learning, so perhaps next time I will be ready for something like this. I will also comment this with my piano teacher next Monday, to see what he thinks.

 

Sorry for the OT, but where else can I talk something like this? 🙏🏻

 

Jose

[nursers]

I understand how you feel Jose - the first couple of musicals I played were quite the learning curve. My only suggestion would be to get into a musical where you're not the only keyboard player. For example, I was in orchestra for Jesus Christ Superstar once, and there was a specified synth role alongside the MD and the piano player

[ProfD]

19 minutes ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

I feel sad for not being able to do it. It is a reality check for me. And it hurts 😔

Every gig isn't meant for every musician.  Read through the Sunday Bashing thread. 🤣

 

There are lanes and levels to this sh8t.😁

 

Get over it.  Continue learning.  One day, you'll feel confident enough to accept the challenge.😎

[Reezekeys]

Musicals are the kind of gig that requires a different - or just broader - musical skill set than what’s needed to be in a band performing covers in a club. You don't need to be a good reader to play in a cover band - but it's pretty much a requirement when doing any musical show. Add to this you're following a conductor - meaning the music may have tempo changes, key changes, railroad tracks, birds’ eyes, dynamic markings, etc. You’re on your toes from downbeat to final bows. For good readers and those that do shows a lot, this is all easy stuff, but I would say you made the right decision. Playing music is supposed to be enjoyable, not something that risks sending you to the doctor with an ulcer!

 

BTW, in case you don't know (I didn't at one point!): "railroad tracks" = caesura, bird's eye = fermata 🙂 

[Dave Ferris]

What Rob said. I've known some pretty monster musicians that when they took a gig doing a show, they were reduced to a green, rookie status, shaking in their boots because of having to follow the conductor, plus all the details and specifics of reading and tempo changes.

 

I subbed on a circus gig probably around 38 years ago now and it might have been the hardest five days of my life. By day 4 I was starting to feel more comfortable but like Rob said, I had to be on my toes from the initial downbeat to the final cut off cue. While I felt good that I "cut the gig" and the conductor gave me a "nice job" at the end, I was never so happy to get back to my world.

 

Shows that run a long time, you actually end up memorizing the charts and it becomes boredom city for players that are used to improvising, or hopping from one gig to the next as a freelance player.

 

We all do what we do and have our wheelhouse but it is good to be taken out of your comfort zone now and then. It makes you  grow as a musician.

[BluMunk]

I get it... and, if you're really feeling like you wish you could do the gig, I'd maybe talk to your friend and get an understanding about the precision expectations he has for the gig. I assume he's got a decent understanding of what you're capable of, and offered you the gig, so he thinks that wherever you are now is enough for what he needs.

I say this because I spent over a decade "hiring" people for high school musicals I was music directing. Typically, that looked like me asking friends and being able to give them $100-200 for the whole thing. My criteria for asking people was:
 

• Good attitude
• Basic ability to read, and/or willingness to slowly work through their book along with recordings to figure things out
• Excitement to play a musical
• A sense of groove and how to lock in with an ensemble
• If they're not already at a high level of proficiency, they're on an active journey to grow and develop
• Problem solver
• They're willing to do the gig for low/no pay

 

... I always knew what I was getting, and had a great time, and ended up with a high level of quality in the pit, even when some players had to simplify or make changes to match their ability.

I often used those school gigs as my own kind of training ground for larger more professional gigs. Like, here's a guitar player who I would not call for a bigger gig, but he's really excited to play and has good instincts, so I'll bring him into the high school shows. After a few years, he's ready for real pay for a real job. I work at a lot of different tiers, and tier my hiring accordingly.

All that is to say: a musical represents a lot of music in a different mode than band work, but if the work interests you, and the guy hiring you knows your skills, trust him and dive in!

[mate stubb]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

 the music may have tempo changes, key changes, railroad tracks, birds’ eyes, dynamic markings, etc.

 

Also stabby knives and chicken feet     (old KC joke)

[obxa]

What doesn't kill you will make you stronger.  But yes, take what your comfort allows, and what you would enjoy.  As some suggested, doing second or aux keys is a great way to get a taste for this kind of stuff to see if it may add to your bag of tools, and income stream.   I follow the "baptism by atomic fire method".  I do main keys/MD,  but doing 2nd or aux keys is a lot less stressful, and can be fun.

 

Because I was just an ok reader, my salvation on pit stuff was having access to audio tracks to learn the parts.  I started doing aux keys playing string reductions or breakout parts in string sections. Was educational, but also weird..  String players hate keyboard players, and often aren't very friendly or helpful..  It did make me a much better reader, and learned a ton about phrasing and articulations.  Also taught me to really do my homework. 

 

 

You find a way.  I still cheat.  I put chord symbols over most measures in the score in case I get lost.   My brain processes better seeing them, and helps learn (and play) the show better too.   I've done some pit and oldies shows that were white knuckle terror things and vowed to not do them anymore.   Plus the money (at least down here) for non-union gigs is often not worth it for the amount of rehearsals and performances.  But doing them has made me a better player.

 

But yes, know your limits and  pick your spots... just don't be afraid to stretch a little.   A guy just came on the traditional service staff at my church. He's retired, but was MD/Pianist in NY for Sweeney, Cats, Lion King  plus the touring companies.  I hear him play, arrange, conduct, and see how he reads- and realized I won't ever be at that level.  But love listening,  talking and learning from him on how I can apply it to the stuff I do. 

 Also have bass player & drummer friends that play with Cirque.  They went through a two year audition process.  It was really cool to see what the criteria is at that level.   I know couldn't do it, but I'm ok with that.

 

 

[Montunoman 2]

Now days it seems to most school and community theater the music prerecorded tracks with no live musicians at all, which is too bad. I did almost all the musical shows back in my high school days, and after a while stated getting to play all over LA and Orange County for both high school and community theater. This was back in the 80’s and after I moved to Texas, I haven’t done any more musicals, but I’m glad I did back in the day. It was great training! 

[obxa]

2 hours ago, ProfD said:

There are lanes and levels to this sh8t.😁

Brilliant. That should be posted  on the exit door of every music school. 

[BluMunk]

9 minutes ago, obxa said:

String players hate keyboard players, and often aren't very friendly or helpful

Heh. I think this is true, but the way to get in with that cohort is to learn how to actually articulate and play idiomatically as much as possible. And, to be honest, to lay out when it's just not working as a section (if you have the freedom to make that choice).

I think a lot of string players get frustrated with keyboardists-as-string-sections is because they are forced to align with the keyboardist, because the keyboardist can't, for example, adjust the pace of their tremolo, differentiate between down bow and up bow, and countless other things. As we often say here, it's "good enough for the audience", but for players in the section it's like playing with someone who is ignoring 1/3 of the things that lead to organic and unified tone across the section.

I think brass players don't care as much because they don't listen to anyone else anyway :p.

[bfields]

The closest thing I've done was just a couple student productions without real scores and such (music was either entirely the band's, or just chord charts, so more like playing in a cover band).  But I really enjoyed it.  We got to be part of a bigger team and put on a fun show.

 

I'd definitely ask some more questions.  Keyboard players are sometimes hard to find, and a high school production may be glad for whoever they can get, who knows.  Good pit musicians are amazing, but that may not be what their next best alternative is.

[Stokely]

I've been playing a long time, and there's a ton of gigs I wouldn't be able to play.  Anything involving reading music for example    I'm still working to get better, but I don't sweat that I'll never be able to play jazz or classical etc...those aren't of great interest to me, while getting better at singing and guitar are my current goals.

IMO, even before considering skill you'd instantly be more sought after than a pretty large percentage of players if you are 1) responsible/timely and 2) are not an obnoxious jerk.   

[obxa]

2 minutes ago, BluMunk said:

it's like playing with someone who is ignoring 1/3 of the things that lead to organic and unified tone across the section.

I think brass players don't care as much because they don't listen to anyone else anyway :p.

Absolutely!   I fully own it was my fault, that's exactly where I was when I first started.  Adapting to their world  and learning more about how they do what they do was the key.  Too funny  and true about brass players, they were and still are  the ones you'd have a beer with after the show. 

[Reezekeys]

32 minutes ago, obxa said:

String players hate keyboard players, and often aren't very friendly or helpful.. 

 

On the first show I did, I replaced a string section so there were no string players around to vibe me - but the wife of the trumpet player on the show was a classical violinist and complimented the string sound I used - an OBXa, go figure! This was around 1983 or 1984 and my first show gig - touring with Liza Minnelli. One rehearsal - and I didn't get to see the book in advance. Luck was on my side though: there wasn't a separate synth book - only piano/conductor charts for me, many with chord symbols. I improvised string arrangements until I found what worked, then stuck to them. The other players were first-call NYC jazz and Broadway musicians and I was completely out of my element - being a young jazzer used to doing $50 restaurant gigs. You learn quick. I do enjoy being challenged occasionally. Jose, maybe you should listen to a recording of the show before closing the door on his opportunity.

[Dave Ferris]

5 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

On the first show I did, I replaced a string section so there were no string players around to vibe me - but the wife of the trumpet player on the show was a classical violinist and complimented the string sound I used - an OBXa, go figure! This was around 1983 or 1984 and my first show gig - touring with Liza Minnelli. One rehearsal - and I didn't get to see the book in advance. Luck was on my side though: there wasn't a separate synth book - only piano/conductor charts for me, many with chord symbols. I improvised string arrangements until I found what worked, then stuck to them. The other players were first-call NYC jazz and Broadway musicians and I was completely out of my element - being a young jazzer used to doing $50 restaurant gigs. You learn quick. I do enjoy being challenged occasionally. Jose, maybe you should listen to a recording of the show before closing the door on his opportunity.

 

I once did a gig with the volatile Patti LuPone where I was on synth doing the string, woodwind, horn and percussion effect parts on my old Kurzweil K2000.

 

Her Pianist/MD was NYC based and total top notch. The charts were meticulously written and both he and MS. LuPone were very specific about what they wanted sound wise. Although they were both cool in realizing the limitations of a synth. It was a one off show and we rehearsed probably a couple hours in the afternoon. We stopped and started quite a bit during rehearsal, repeating certain sections multiple times. Which was not the norm for a show biz type gig like that where I was used to a one time run through at best. She was a definite Diva but a perfectionist, with radar ears. And while she really honed on what I was doing, she was always professional and never raised her voice.  I've heard stories and a couple guys said...you got off easy, she must've been in a good mood that day.

 

She was in her prime, both popularity and chops, at this time. It was a great experience to work with her, and get more of an insight into the musical theater world at that high level. They were very serious biz.

[Bill H.]

3 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

 

 

Today, the drummer has offered me to play keys on a Queen musical at his former high school. It will be on 26th March. He will play drums.

 

The reason for me to decline the offer is lack of time (although that could be more or less solved) and, the most important, lack of capability to do it. 

 

If this is "We Will Rock You" (the only Queen musical I'm aware of) I don't think any of us could do it under the conditions you describe. Work up over 20 Queen songs in an ensemble that's a mixture of high school students and adults in less than two months? 

 

We all get pitched crazy projects, and after awhile you just kinda learn to say no when things seem unreasonable. 

 

If I could give any advice to your drummer, it would be to learn two or three Queen songs well, and have the cast perform the rest to tracks. 

[BluMunk]

2 minutes ago, Bill H. said:

I don't think any of us could do it under the conditions you describe. Work up over 20 Queen songs in an ensemble that's a mixture of high school students and adults in less than two months? 

Well, the difference is, it's all charted out for everyone. Precisely. And everyone is "on the rails".

If you don't read well, it's a lot of work. If you do read well... it's still a lot of work, but it can be pretty straightforward to sit in, keep with the count, watch/listen for cues, and do an ok job, even with no rehearsals.

No way I'm working up 20 Queen songs in 2 months and feeling good about it. But reading the charts for 20 Queen songs where everything's been figured out for me? Easy-peasy.

[CHarrell]

3 hours ago, Jose EB5AGV said:

I play on a pop/rock band (80s+ covers and band originals) for two years now, just for fun (I spend quite a lot more in music gear than I earn playing 😅, and money is not my goal)

 

Today, the drummer has offered me to play keys on a Queen musical at his former high school. It will be on 26th March. He will play drums.

 

The reason for me to decline the offer is lack of time (although that could be more or less solved) and, the most important, lack of capability to do it. I feel far from ready to do that kind of thing. I know there would be some young players of other instruments from the school, and the idea is for more seasoned musicians to support them. But I don't feel like a seasoned musician, but as a beginner with limited experience playing live with the first and unique band I have ever played.

 

I feel sad for not being able to do it. It is a reality check for me. And it hurts 😔

 

Well, the only thing I can do is to keep learning, so perhaps next time I will be ready for something like this. I will also comment this with my piano teacher next Monday, to see what he thinks.

 

Sorry for the OT, but where else can I talk something like this? 🙏🏻

 

Jose

 

Echoing other's sentiments, you'd be surprised by how low your perceived 100% is when you expand your capacity by taking on challenges. Further too, you never know what opportunities will arise from your life when you say yes to things! 

 

In 2018, a band director approached me to perform keyboards for an upcoming production of Young Frankenstein, because his first pick was unavailable. I looked at the book, which had some complicated areas, switching instruments, and it was just sooooo thick! I got really nervous about my ability to hang. I told him I'd think about it, but as soon as I said it, I knew if I said no, I'd be capping off my own potential, and said yes like 20 minutes later. 

 

While I was nervous, I created a simple daily goal: during rehearsals, play one bar with both staves. This was my goal because in performance situations prior, I would just play one staff with both hands out of fear of making mistakes. As it happened, when you're in the heat of the moment and the music is flowing, you don't just say "Well, I played my one bar, I'll just play one staff with two hands now!" 

So what was the end result of me taking on this challenge? I ended up vibing with all of the people in the band really well, and we formed a band that's getting bigger and bigger every year (I moved away a year after it formation, but I'm still really close friends with several of them and get updates from them and see the social media posts). 

 

The band director loved working with me to the point where I became his first pick piano/keyboard player for the rest of my time living there.

 

I made a connection with the theater owners and producers, and the following year they had a play that desperately needed music, and I got to score it. From then, I became their in-house composer for several years...last year was really dry for me musically, but the income for music I got was solely from the royalties for their theme I wrote last year!

 

And of course, I now had an irrefutable experience in my life that told me I could take on tough challenges. : )

 

Obviously, it's your decision whether you take on the gig or not, but it's truly amazing how much the course of our lives move because of one three-letter word.

[Jose EB5AGV]

Many thanks to all of you for sharing your wisdom. I will reflect about all of this advice 🫂🙏🏻

[stillearning]

5 hours ago, obxa said:

What doesn't kill you will make you stronger…

 

…You find a way.  I still cheat.  I put chord symbols over most measures in the score in case I get lost.   My brain processes better seeing them, and helps learn (and play) the show better too…

Same here. I was asked to fill in last minute on the string parts for a Christmas program, when the actual string players became unavailable. (Never did know why.) I put the chord names on the score and faked my way through, doing my best to sound like the strings as I followed the actual score. I can read music, but it’s not my forte. Better at charts anymore. No one complained.

 

I felt I got better for the experience.

[jazzpiano88]

Part of me is thinking you should follow the addage: 90% of success in life is showing up. 

 

You are projecting your fears onto the situation and anticipating the worst.

However, Dale Carnegie would say, "Internalize the worst that could happen and accept it"

 

Quantifying this, I think the upsides greatly outweigh the downsides especially with a 2 month prep horizon:

 

Upsides:

  - You meet new people who are better than you and your playing improves.

  - You make a new connection that changes your life.

  - It goes better than you thought and you have a great time

  - Experience is gained and now you have a bootstrap into another field with more confidence (similar to above)

 

Downsides:

  -  You mess up.   That just means that you turn the volume down and they complain  "I can't hear the piano"

  -  You feel embarrassed.   That will fade away.   People will remember you tried your best.

 

On the other hand if you are at the point in your career where you don't think anything like this is in your future interest and would rather devote all of your time to the live ensemble playing, then  it makes perfect sense to bow out, and not even stress about your decision.   Just internalize it. "That's not what I do".

 

 

[Floyd Tatum]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, but I agree with what I've read, up to a point.   Yes, you should only do what you feel comfortable doing.

On the other hand, how are you going to grow as a musician without pushing yourself once in a while?    It's not like this is a high-profile paying gig; it's a school production.   I'd say you might want to reconsider.   You didn't say what your reading capabilities are.   But if you have some reading ability, that might be enough.

You said your drummer asked you to do it.   He wouldn't have asked if he didn't think you could do it.   One way to approach this might be:  talk to your drummer friend, tell him "I kind want to do this, but I'm not sure if my abilities are up to the task.   If you're ok with that, then maybe it could work."    Theater gigs are a good thing to have in your toolbox.  If that's something you ever want to do,  you've got to start somewhere.

The fact that you made the post you did, tells me that you kind of want us to talk you into doing it.  Wish granted.  🙂

 

 

[obxa]

Personal gig learning technique that applies to anything you need to learn.    Apologies, I'm sure others are already hip to this.  

 

When you've got a full plate of songs to learn, don't initially learn them in the set/show order.  Instead,  rapidly fast forward through the entire set/show for any songs that have naked, exposed,  up front piano/keys intros, breaks, or outros.  Work on those first before you learn and run rest of show in order..

 

Don't know why I hadn't started doing this years ago.  I've always learned them in order,  spending more time as needed. But sometimes you don't have enough time..  Did a ton of multiple artist and pit stuff this past year sometimes having to learn as much as 15- 20 songs in a week.  This saved me to make sure I hit the stuff  most scrutinized.

 

If they aren't provided, I also transcribe and make proper Finale charts for everything.  Takes a while, but helps me learn material better, and I've got them for future use. 

[Dave Bryce]

On 2/1/2024 at 6:57 AM, Jose EB5AGV said:

Sorry for the OT, but where else can I talk something like this? 🙏🏻

 

Seems pretty on topic to me… 😎 👍

 

dB

[AUSSIEKEYS]

4 hours ago, Dave Bryce said:

 

Seems pretty on topic to me… 😎 👍

 

dB

 

Yep i agree with Dave as your stuff is always interesting to read.

 

My initial take was...and I'll quote a term from my graphic designer days

 

"when in doubt leave it out"

 

in other words You have deep concerns then don't do it

 

But as others have said if you don't push yourself you may never grow.

 

As someone said ..talk to the drummer. If he believes in you that's a good reason to think about doing it

 

But suss out if he truly believes in you and doesnt just want to fill the position

 

I'd say he probaly believes in you..

[Jose EB5AGV]

3 hours ago, AUSSIEKEYS said:

 

Yep i agree with Dave as your stuff is always interesting to read.

 

My initial take was...and I'll quote a term from my graphic designer days

 

"when in doubt leave it out"

 

in other words You have deep concerns then don't do it

 

But as others have said if you don't push yourself you may never grow.

 

As someone said ..talk to the drummer. If he believes in you that's a good reason to think about doing it

 

But suss out if he truly believes in you and doesnt just want to fill the position

 

I'd say he probaly believes in you..

 

 Thank you all for your input! 🙏

 

Well, as I wrote on the original (and now ON-TOPIC, thanks @Dave Bryce) message, I am truly a beginner on this. I am almost 56, but began playing  (from scratch) at 50. My only really public (i.e. not just for friends) playing events so far have been the 6 gigs done along my current (and first) band (for 2 years now; we had a singer change in the middle, so we were 6 months without gigging)

 

So, well, playing on a theatre in front of 300+ people on a kind of musical act I have never done before, with just 2 months time to prepare (I have my daily job), and being this a hobby for me, is a bit steep. I am sure OTOH that I would learn something, perhaps a lot, from it. But for me the risk, at this moment of my development as player, seems too high.

 

As this is not a job (BTW, there is no payment on that musical, in case you wonder), I will, with 90% probability, pass. The 10% remaining is because I don't have yet any detailed info on what they really need and also because I want to talk with my piano teacher on Monday to assess it once I get some more info.

 

All in all, I am very happy the drummer thinks I can do it. But, going down to Earth... He has never before played with a keyboard on his band, so he may not have a good way to gauge my playing level.

 

I will let you know what finally happens!

 

Jose

[Jose EB5AGV]

Well, I have decided to investigate this a bit more. Thank you for getting me into this 🤣

 

I will talk tomorrow with the musical director, who is in turn a music teacher on the high school, to see if we can find a way to collaborate. I have already written her about my short experience in this world, so it won't be a surprise.

 

One good thing is that (and I was unaware until today) she attended our last gig (which, IMO was our best so far) and, on her own words, "loved it" 🤩

 

So far, so good! 😅

 

More to come, keep tuned!

 

Jose

[Jose EB5AGV]

So today I have talked with the musical director. And she has told me a piano teacher would play most of it, except for Bohemian Rhapsody. I have told her that I am not yet up to par to play such a piece and she has understood.

 

And I know for sure, because yesterday night I got some Queen sheet music, including it, and tried to play them. And not, impossible for me right now to do a decent enough job 

 

Well, it seems this is the end of this trip for me. But I am glad to have asked for details at least!. This pushes me to continue learning and, some day, perhaps be able to do such a thing.

 

Thanks for your support! 🙏🏻

 

Jose

[Bobadohshe]

I have never done a show and I've always wanted to dip my toe in. I would love the challenge. I'm a decent reader (not the amazing level of so many that I know) and I am used to playing lots of stuff on multiple boards with patch changes. I relish any chance I get to follow a conductor because I only get to do it once or twice a year. It always takes me a few minutes to switch that part of my brain on.

 

The money is bad though! I just can't afford to do those kinds of gigs at the moment. Maybe one day.