"Gimme Some Lovin" -- Lachy Doley Hammond SK2 Solo (with Leslie)

[timwat]

for what little it's worth, i think there are more than a few things going on that make threads like this go this direction.

 

sure, musical tastes are personal, unique, and a provocative performance can be polarizing. yeah, we're all musicians here, so we got a surplus of opinions about all this.

 

But there's more. i think folks who are hard on themselves can be hard on others...and often needlessly, excessively hard on others. And then there's this...specifically for musicians, i find that those who have never toured are sometimes the hardest critics of public performances. those who haven't shit the sheets on a high level public gig in front of icons can be the harshest critics of a vid of someone burning down the house. Etcetera. Some of this is attributable to lack of context. But some of it isn't because you don't know until you live it. Some of it is is simply the internet making it easy to be cruel.

 

it takes work and effort these days to be kind. it is harder to be encouraging and supportive than it is to find something arch, clever, and nasty to say. I think that's always been true, but the internet makes it way easier because you don't have to look someone else in the eye after you've said it.

 

Even expressing musical critique and analysis, and personal preference...there are 87 ways to express these kinds of things. And i think it takes effort and work to be diplomatic and kind to others. especially others who aren't in the room.

 

who says you should be kind? I should be free to keep it real. f*ck that guy, i'll do what i want. 

 

sure, it's the internet. you do you. but it's a small vote for the kind of world you want. every. single. time.

[MathOfInsects]

3 hours ago, timwat said:

for what little it's worth, i think there are more than a few things going on that make threads like this go this direction.

 

sure, musical tastes are personal, unique, and a provocative performance can be polarizing. yeah, we're all musicians here, so we got a surplus of opinions about all this.

 

But there's more. i think folks who are hard on themselves can be hard on others...and often needlessly, excessively hard on others. And then there's this...specifically for musicians, i find that those who have never toured are sometimes the hardest critics of public performances. those who haven't shit the sheets on a high level public gig in front of icons can be the harshest critics of a vid of someone burning down the house. Etcetera. Some of this is attributable to lack of context. But some of it isn't because you don't know until you live it. Some of it is is simply the internet making it easy to be cruel.

 

it takes work and effort these days to be kind. it is harder to be encouraging and supportive than it is to find something arch, clever, and nasty to say. I think that's always been true, but the internet makes it way easier because you don't have to look someone else in the eye after you've said it.

 

Even expressing musical critique and analysis, and personal preference...there are 87 ways to express these kinds of things. And i think it takes effort and work to be diplomatic and kind to others. especially others who aren't in the room.

 

who says you should be kind? I should be free to keep it real. f*ck that guy, i'll do what i want. 

 

sure, it's the internet. you do you. but it's a small vote for the kind of world you want. every. single. time.

I don't know, Tim. This seems to suggest that the only possible reasons for a negative opinion of something are cruelty, thoughtlessness, ignorance, or shame. That feels off to me. People do this naturally--we decide or notice what we like and what we don't. It's OK to have different opinions. The genome thrives on diversity! Speaking only for me, I haven't said anything here that I wouldn't say (and haven't said, as our resident podcasters will attest!) in person.

 

Some very good and experienced people have weighed in negatively, some very good and experienced people have weighed in positively. I don't think those generalizations are apt, or generous. Hearing what people think about a thing, particularly those I respect, IS the world I want to live in.

For whatever it's worth, in my experience, those who are hardest on themselves are usually the most open to hearing negative feedback. It only reinforces a thing they thought anyway, and are usually pretty immune to the blows from the outside, as compared to the calls coming from inside the house. If anything they tend to believe others are far better than them, and that they themselves are pretenders in a world of "real" players. I'm not a fan of the "Oh, yeah, then let's see you do better!" school of idea-exchange. 

In this case, I can't imagine it would come as the slightest bit of a surprise or even heard as a knock, for Lachy Doley to find out his approach was polarizing. It's literally his defining aesthetic. And I sure can't imagine it would matter for a millisecond what some dweebs on a discussion board were saying about one song he played one time. If his rent is paid, the rest is static. 

[MathOfInsects]

2 hours ago, HammondDave said:

So I can’t help but wonder what the ‘purebreds” on this forum think of Keith Emerson….

I'm no purebred, and I doubt anyone here is speaking on behalf of any kind of committee, but this board is sort of famously delighted by the talented Mr. Emerson, so I think that verdict has been rendered.  

[HammondDave]

5 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I'm no purebred, and I doubt anyone here is speaking on behalf of any kind of committee, but this board is sort of famously delighted by the talented Mr. Emerson, so I think that verdict has been rendered.  

I guess you missed my point. 

[MathOfInsects]

2 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

I guess you missed my point. 

I must have. Sorry. Point me in the right direction?

[timwat]

36 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

I don't know, Tim. This seems to suggest that the only possible reasons for a negative opinion of something are cruelty, thoughtlessness, ignorance, or shame. That feels off to me. People do this naturally--we decide or notice what we like and what we don't. It's OK to have different opinions. The genome thrives on diversity! Speaking only for me, I haven't said anything here that I wouldn't (and haven't, as our resident podcasters will attest!) said in person.

 

Providing a forum for diverse voices does not ipso facto necessitate cruelty and needless negativity. While that's not what you said, I should be more clear on what I'm suggesting. Both you and I teach; we both know (as I cited above) the more-than-87 ways to voice a response. In my particular milieu, I can wither a student with one phrase (or timely glance). I can also choose to craft a response which encourages, builds up, and edifies, whilst still remaining true to my opinion, viewpoint, analysis, and critique. In my personal opinion, I'd like to see us collectively work harder than we sometimes do to shoot for the latter rather than the former. 

 

As with all internet forums, we do a better job of this sometimes, and a not so good job at others. This community over the years has encouraged and built up many players. We can be kind.

 

And we're also the forum that infamously chased off Jordan Rudess, aren't we?

 

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, timwat said:

 

Providing a forum for diverse voices does not ipso facto necessitate cruelty and needless negativity. While that's not what you said, I should be more clear on what I'm suggesting. Both you and I teach; we both know (as I cited above) the more-than-87 ways to voice a response. In my particular milieu, I can wither a student with one phrase (or timely glance). I can also choose to craft a response which encourages, builds up, and edifies, whilst still remaining true to my opinion, viewpoint, analysis, and critique. In my personal opinion, I'd like to see us collectively work harder than we sometimes do to shoot for the latter rather than the former. 

 

As with all internet forums, we do a better job of this sometimes, and a not so good job at others. This community over the years has encouraged and built up many players. We can be kind.

 

And we're also the forum that infamously chased off Jordan Rudess, aren't we?

 

Hmmm. All of these are defensible statements in isolation, but they still feel inapt to me. I think the distinction is whether one processes a negative opinion as inherently cruel or needless, de facto. I can't agree that those two things are the same. To me, "you" NOT sharing your honest opinion with "me" is unkind. I'll take that over the "bless your heart" approach any day. Perhaps we just see that differently. (Which is OK!)

"This guy should never have been born and makes the world a worse place for living in it" is cruel and needless. "This guy's style is not for me, it doesn't have the things I look for" feels completely innocuous and defensible, and I'd encourage literally any student to begin an analysis in that exact way, and then support it well. I WANT to hear what comes next, and more to the point I very much want them to develop an aesthetic; that kind of engagement with something they hadn't given much technical thought to in the past is a win all around for me.

 

Not to mention, we do this about ourselves routinely as professional musicians. If someone calls me for a job I think someone else would be better suited for, I have no trouble saying, "I don't think I'm the right guy for this one. But [X] would find this right in his/her wheelhouse, why don't you try them?" It's not unkind or cruel or needless for me to say this (about myself). It's just noticing a thing and responding to it. I don't see the difference between this and any other evaluation of a player, yourself or otherwise. 

It's OK to speak your truth about art (IMO). It's the whole reason for art--to confront and engage with people's truth. If you're not engendering a reaction, you're not doing anything worth doing. Those reactions do not have to be positive. Not all art is the cute kids with the big eyes. 

Did we chase off Jordan Rudess or is he just off being Jordan Rudess and not giving a second's thought to the nerds at Keyboard Corner? I would just have assumed the latter. No?

[Adan]

I started this thread at the end (the post before mine), then went back to the beginning expecting to read some really nasty vitriol.  It's just a few critical comments, and frankly I think some people are overreacting to those. But interesting perspective expressed by some of this forum's deepest thinkers, so overall a good read.

 

Put me in the camp of: don't love LD, but I'm glad he's out there doing what he's doing and more power to him. Anyone who is keeping the Hammond organ alive and relevant, especially in the rock context, and not just that but finding new ways to push its boundaries, has my respect and admiration.

[El Lobo]

Reading the NFL thread. It's OK to say a player sucks. 

[HammondDave]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I must have. Sorry. Point me in the right direction?

sure. Many people criticized Keith Emerson for his “showmanship”. I saw him several times when i was a teenager and I lived the schick he pulled (well, the spinning grand piano may have been a little excessive, bit I digress… in no terms was his showmanship as divisive as LD on a forum of musicians.  Lachey is a great rock Hammond  player and he integrates thats into a very active, high energy show. 
 

i like it

[Noah DC]

4 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

It's OK to speak your truth about art (IMO). It's the whole reason for art--to confront and engage with people's truth. If you're not engendering a reaction, you're not doing anything worth doing. Those reactions do not have to be positive. Not all art is the cute kids with the big eyes.

This feels very right to me. One of my favorite songwriters, Todd Snider, wrote: “the worst review they can give you is no review at all, and that's the one they give almost everybody.” I’d imagine there are unknown musicians toiling out there who would kill to have a thread like this with so many folks paying attention to their playing - what an honor to make music that people take the time to form opinions about. 

[jazzpiano88]

Some of the dynamic here has to do with what Math described early on:    A critique is interpreted as an attack against those who hold an opposite opinion.   Why should anyone care that my opinion differs from theirs? 

 

Why is it that nobody ever criticizes people for liking something?  It's always the reverse -- people criticizing others for disliking (as demonstrated by this thread).

 

[niacin]

I think it’s interesting that the OP posted the video to comment specifically about the use Lachy makes of the drawbars in building the solo.  And on a forum full of Hammond snobs (me included) no one has said anything at all about that.  Instead we’ve had style over substance statements comparing him dismissively to players of other genres who never touched the drawbars except between choruses.  

 

Maybe if the title of the thread had been something about building a solo by riding the drawbars, with Lachy’s video as an example rather than as the subject, we’d have had a very different discussion.

 

So maybe we could return the topic to the original matter at hand.  I’d actually be really interested to see some Hammond solos that involve riding the drawbars.  I’ll start by mentioning John Medeski, any track you like.  

 

Edit: actually I’ll just start a new topic

[jerrythek]

6 minutes ago, niacin said:

I think it’s interesting that the OP posted the video to comment specifically about the use Lachy makes of the drawbars in building the solo.  And on a forum full of Hammond snobs (me included) no one has said anything at all about that.  Instead we’ve had style over substance statements comparing him dismissively to players of other genres who never touched the drawbars except between choruses.  So in the spirit of the OPs enthusiasm for drawbar tweaked I’m just going to mention John Medeski whose playing on that front is magic.

You’re absolutely right, and I think LD did a fine job working out the drawbars across his performance. Something that I could learn from and do a better job of. I even added drawbar caps to my faders on my Kronos to aid in that, but often found I didn’t “go there” much during performances. 
 

Medeski is the ultimate example of that these days. I think Larry Goldings excels

in that area. 

[niacin]

started a new topic, thanks to Old No7 for the OP

[Old No7]

6 hours ago, Adan said:

Anyone who is keeping the Hammond organ alive and relevant, especially in the rock context, and not just that but finding new ways to push its boundaries, has my respect and admiration.

 

Well said Adan, that's why I started this posting.  By the way, the SK Pro 73 I bought from you is running strong -- it's an awesome board!

 

5 minutes ago, niacin said:

started a new topic, thanks to Old No7 for the OP

 

Great, and thank you!  Get the popcorn and beer, and I'll join you over there to see "what happens"...

 

Old No7

[Jim Alfredson]

5 hours ago, El Lobo said:

Reading the NFL thread. It's OK to say a player sucks. 

 

False analogy. The success and quality of an athlete can be directly and objectively measured based on the rules of the sport. How many fumbles? How many completed passes. How many blocks? Etc. 

Music isn’t sports. Music isn’t competition.

 

To restate my point yet again, the issue here is how one criticizes a fellow musician. I don’t give two shits whether anyone likes LD’s music or not. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on subjective matters like art. What I do care about is how that subjective opinion is expressed, especially when it comes to small scale musicians who are trying to make a living. This is personal to me because I know how much work and sacrifice it takes to achieve even the smallest amount of success. LD is not a household name. I doubt anyone outside of organ and keyboard nerds even knows who he is. He’s not up there using backing tracks, he’s not auto-tuned, he’s not lip-syncing, he’s actually playing his instrument and trying to bring fun, energetic performances to the people. 

If he’s not your cup of tea, that’s perfectly fine. But making rude and disparaging comments is unhelpful. 

And that’s the last I’ll say about it. 

[MathOfInsects]

5 hours ago, HammondDave said:

sure. Many people criticized Keith Emerson for his “showmanship”. I saw him several times when i was a teenager and I lived the schick he pulled (well, the spinning grand piano may have been a little excessive, bit I digress… in no terms was his showmanship as divisive as LD on a forum of musicians.  Lachey is a great rock Hammond  player and he integrates thats into a very active, high energy show. 
 

i like it

Oh. 

I don't think the knock is against showmanship as a concept. It's a local criticism that a particular performer seems more focused on the performance than the music. If people were blown away by the music, no one would care either way. (See: Hendrix) If anything I think the showmanship aspect is being acknowledged as a strength of LD's, by all involved in this conversation.

[Baldwin Funster]

Lachy is over the top most of the time and shows no interest in being subtle. However subtle doesnt sell downloads or concert tickets these days and he has a following bigger than most hammond players including I'd bet KBC forumites.

 

I will say that his vocals have improved quite a bit in the last couple of years. 

I think he's pretty far away from being someone that sux.

[Doerfler]

 

[Threadslayer]

14 hours ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Why is it that nobody ever criticizes people for liking something?  It's always the reverse -- people criticizing others for disliking (as demonstrated by this thread).

 

Gushing, fawning, angst-ridden fanboi's virtue signaling with unbridled support for mediocre performances make me want to hurl!

[Threadslayer]

11 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

He’s not up there using backing tracks, he’s not auto-tuned, he’s not lip-syncing, he’s actually playing his instrument and trying to bring fun, energetic performances to the people. 

[TommyRude]

LD is a fantastic musician, a fantastic showman, he’s unique, well spoken and humble.  On top of his excellent chops, what he does transcends music, he makes an emotional connection.

 

Put all that together, LD is a hero, a keyboard hero.  There are very very few of those.

[Delaware Dave]

I'm a fan of LD, I believe I started a thread about him a couple of years ago because I thought 'wow, his showman approach is unique and captivating'.

 

The OP wrote this:.   "Give it a listen!  It's a great rock organ tune, and Lachy does a great job with it!".  So i listened to it, I wasn't particularly impressed by his vocals (on this particular video) nor the overdrive sound that came out of the rig.

 

Are you saying that my opinion, because it was not positive, should be suppressed?

 

Here's what I wrote:

guess there is still hope for me as a vocalist.....  The Hammond's overdrive ....   meh

 

[HammondDave]

17 hours ago, niacin said:

I think it’s interesting that the OP posted the video to comment specifically about the use Lachy makes of the drawbars in building the solo.  And on a forum full of Hammond snobs (me included) no one has said anything at all about that.  Instead we’ve had style over substance statements comparing him dismissively to players of other genres who never touched the drawbars except between choruses.  

 

Maybe if the title of the thread had been something about building a solo by riding the drawbars, with Lachy’s video as an example rather than as the subject, we’d have had a very different discussion.

 

So maybe we could return the topic to the original matter at hand.  I’d actually be really interested to see some Hammond solos that involve riding the drawbars.  I’ll start by mentioning John Medeski, any track you like.  

 

Edit: actually I’ll just start a new topic

Actually, I did a few posts up. I used the same technique Saturday night  in my solo for “If You Want Me to Stay”. 

[Bobbo Fett]

This thread reminds me of some of the most sage advice I've ever gotten. Sitting in a car on break at a gig, sharing a "fun stick" with a friend.....we got on the subject of rap somehow, and I was banging on about my total disdain for it....my buddy took a long hit, settled back and said, "Well man.....if you don't dig it, it wasn't written for you"......

[El Lobo]

1 hour ago, Bobbo Fett said:

Sitting in a car on break at a gig, sharing a "fun stick" with a friend.....

Sitting in a car on break at a gig, sharing a "smoke" with the drummer .... 

I forgot where I was going with this ... 

[jazzpiano88]

9 hours ago, Threadslayer said:

On 9/19/2023 at 5:25 PM, JazzPiano88 said:

Why is it that nobody ever criticizes people for liking something?  It's always the reverse -- people criticizing others for disliking (as demonstrated by this thread).

 

Gushing, fawning, angst-ridden fanboi's virtue signaling with unbridled support for mediocre performances make me want to hurl!

 

Username checks out 😆

[TommyRude]

If you don't like LD, you're not feeling it correctly 

[Markay]

my next question is, who's gonna tell him, so he can stop this "entertaining" nonsense get on with his plumbing career?

 

This should be a sticky here, no posts about about keyboard playing plumbers, how about it mods? The keyboard forum all chops , a no entertainment zone.