MOJO VS. XK5

[mrk7421]

I have the Mojo module. I like the organ sound without the Leslie sim.....chorus vibrato, second or third harmonic percussion etc. pretty well. The Mojo has excellent overdrive. I do have to turn the percussion volume almost all the way off. The inclusion of 25 or so different organs is almost a waste of time....if percussion is global to all of them. The thing I do not like about the Mojo if the Leslie sim. I can't seem to make it so that it does not affect the organ tone dramatically. In that regard I prefer the Viscount Leslie sim. 

[Losendoskeys]

22 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

A completely useless comparison. He didn't even make an attempt to match recording levels between the two instruments, which is the bare minimum required for any honest comparison (since we tend to associate 'louder' with 'better'). He has reverb on the Mojo whereas the Hammond is bone dry, another psychoacoustic preference. He is also not using the overdrive circuit at all on the XK5 (you can see that it's off because the LED is not lit). Yet he has it almost up to halfway on the Mojo. I have the overdrive circuit engaged ALL the time because even with the dial all the way down it adds girth, thickness, and saturation to the sound. With it off, the XK5 sounds more like a vintage tonewheel direct off the preamp; lots of keyclick, lots of high-end, not much bass. 
 

The tone of the XK5 varies wildly depending on the Leslie model used. And it's obvious that the level of the percussion is much hotter in the Mojo. You can of course adjust that in the XK5 very easily and it will saturate the modeled matching transformer just like a vintage tonewheel, especially with the overdrive on.

 

I'd put my XK5 up against the Mojo any day. I've barely tweaked mine; just a few adjustments to the percussion, matching transformer parameters, and the tube settings really. This video is a piss poor representation of it.

I'd put my SKX Pro up against the Mojo any day, no contest Jim

[AnotherScott]

4 hours ago, mrk7421 said:

The thing I do not like about the Mojo if the Leslie sim. I can't seem to make it so that it does not affect the organ tone dramatically. In that regard I prefer the Viscount Leslie sim. 

 

An actual Leslie alters the sound both by virtue of the fact that the speakers spin, but also by the coloration of its cabinetry and components. This is why you so often see options for emulating different models of Leslie cabinets, which do sound different. A Leslie simulator that provides the spinning effect but does not alter the tone is not actually fully emulating a Leslie. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it's still musically useful, it just depends what you're looking for. But if you want your clonewheel to sound like it's being played through a Leslie 122, the tone should be expected to be quite different from the tone of the instrument with the Leslie sim completely bypassed.

[pinkfloydcramer]

I bought a mint used Mojo Classic a few years ago, enjoyed it and its rich sound for a few months before it crapped out on me. But I thought my HX3 module beat it for balls and presence, either with or without a Leslie. My YC88 organ also fares well in that regard.

 

But to be fair, I never really got under the hood of the Mojo- although I do recall checking out some of the different organ models.   

 

I would love to have the XK4 with its multi contact feature, but I'm pretty well content gigging with either my HX3/Vent combo or my YC88 (with external MIDI keyboard).

[Jon E]

3 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

 

An actual Leslie alters the sound both by virtue of the fact that the speakers spin

That fact was new to me Scott 😉

However the Yamaha RA-200 speakers spin: 

 

[mrk7421]

Personally I do not want a Leslie cabinet to affect the Hammond tonewheel sound in any way. Neither did Laurens Hammond . At home I play a C-2 with Trek percussion using headphones and I would to get a Leslie to come as close to that as possible. So, as much as I like Guido and Andrea at Crumar I am not in love with their concept of Leslie simulation...all that cabinet resonance mic distance and all of that. I haven't come to terms with it because it drives me nuts when I get into editing. But I do enjoy the Mojo basic tone with no Leslie sim. Old school, just CV and percussion. It does a pretty good job of that at least I suppose.

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, mrk7421 said:

Personally I do not want a Leslie cabinet to affect the Hammond tonewheel sound in any way. Neither did Laurens Hammond .

That's true. But the market and the musicians ultimately said that people liked the sound of the Hammond through the Leslie, and that's what most tonewheel-style organ players are looking for. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the sound you prefer, but it is not the most common goal. But that said...

 

1 hour ago, mrk7421 said:

At home I play a C-2 with Trek percussion using headphones and I would to get a Leslie to come as close to that as possible. 

If you don't want the sound of the Leslie cabinet/components OR the sound of rotating speakers, it makes sense you'd want an organ in which you could entirely bypass the Leslie sim... something you'd also want if you were going to connect to a real Leslie, for that matter. Most clonewheels do have this function, I believe. So yeah, it's a little surprising if the Mojo does not.

[kanefsky]

The Leslie cabinet discussion reminds me a little of reverb in digital piano samples/models.  The amount and type of reverb you want coming from a digital piano depends not just on personal preference but what happens to the sound once it leaves the digital piano.  You might want something different if you're making a recording versus listening through big speakers in a large reverberant room, for example, so that you don't get reverb on top of reverb.

 

Similarly, with organ, I imagine you might want different Leslie parameters if you're directly recording the output versus playing the output through a PA system.  The PA system might add some of the cabinet effect so that you want less of it in the sim.

 

Headphones or small spaces can be more of a personal preference.  Some people like the illusion of a big space even if they're playing with headphones in a closet.  For me, that sounds fake and so I want a sound that more closely resembles my actual listening environment even if it's not as "good."  Keep in mind that I'm talking about wanting the best connection between what I play and what I hear, which is not the same as what I might want if I were just listening for pleasure.

 

Regarding the Mojo, according to the manual you can turn the entire cabinet/Leslie simulation on and off with the SHIFT+FAST button combination, and if you use the editor web-app there also appears to be a "cabinet" parameter that "adjusts the amount of resonances caused by the wooden cabinet."

 

[dazzjazz]

…reaching for popcorn and beer here…

[Delaware Dave]

10 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

Most clonewheels do have this function, I believe. So yeah, it's a little surprising if the Mojo does not.

No surprises as the Mojo does have a leslie off (bypass) function.

[kpl1228]

Now considering the Mojo, mostly due to all of your rave reviews, and the price differential vs the new Hammond.

A thousand years ago, I had a Crumar Orchestrator. Thing was hilariously awful and the epitome of Italian "engineering." I admit that's part of my reluctance to go Mojo.

Fix It Again Tony!

[wineandkeyz]

50 minutes ago, kpl1228 said:

Now considering the Mojo, mostly due to all of your rave reviews, and the price differential vs the new Hammond.

A thousand years ago, I had a Crumar Orchestrator. Thing was hilariously awful and the epitome of Italian "engineering." I admit that's part of my reluctance to go Mojo.

Fix It Again Tony!

 

This might not be a concern for you, but I owned a Mojo 61 and ended up selling it because you lose notes at the top or bottom if you transpose the keyboard. My two main bands tune down a half-step, which meant that I lost the top C note. I realize this is probably due to Crumar's desire to be "authentic" or whatever, but Hammond, Roland, and Nord clonewheels don't rob notes like that.

[HammondDave]

58 minutes ago, kpl1228 said:

Now considering the Mojo, mostly due to all of your rave reviews, and the price differential vs the new Hammond.

A thousand years ago, I had a Crumar Orchestrator. Thing was hilariously awful and the epitome of Italian "engineering." I admit that's part of my reluctance to go Mojo.

Fix It Again Tony!

Don’t blame the name!  From my understanding these cats have nothing to do with the original Crumar company… they just the bought the name. 
 

Look, both these clones are great. And as I mentioned in my OP these are apples to oranges comparisons (price and features). Play both and spend your money for the best tool for YOUR art. Believe me, I am fortunate enough to be able to afford to buy an XK5. I chose the MOJO for its’ sound, playability, weight, and features. If my MODX craps out at a gig, I can stiLl play great sounding AP’s, EP’s, EP’s, and Clavs from my MOJO. Plus it weighs 25 lbs.  

 

And for those who think I have something against Suzuki… well, I do. IMHO, this corporation bought the Hammond name and has not lived up to its glorious reputation. Jim and other artists have done their best trying to convince Suzuki to up quality their products, and without our colleagues’ love for, and dedication to the original Hammond sound and tradition, I am afraid Suzuki’s overpriced products would not be as good as they are now.  When small companies still make, if not better, but certainly competitive products, then there is something seriously wrong with the Suzuki corporation. 

[HammondDave]

10 minutes ago, wineandkeyz said:

 

This might not be a concern for you, but I owned a Mojo 61 and ended up selling it because you lose notes at the top or bottom if you transpose the keyboard. My two main bands tune down a half-step, which meant that I lost the top C note. I realize this is probably due to Crumar's desire to be "authentic" or whatever, but Hammond, Roland, and Nord clonewheels don't rob notes like that.

That’s strange. One of the bands I play with tunes down a half step and I don’t lose my top C. Maybe they corrected that with a firmware release? 

[wineandkeyz]

18 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

That’s strange. One of the bands I play with tunes down a half step and I don’t lose my top C. Maybe they corrected that with a firmware release? 

 

Interesting. Maybe I should have held onto it a little longer! (Or maybe my feeble memory is failing me?)

[mrk7421]

Hey....if you want cabinet simulation and mic distance and dopfler simulation and all the rest of it,great! It drives me nuts to try to deal with editing it. I do prefer the sim on the Viscount once again this was beta tested by Joey DeFrancesco and it's the sim I prefer. Mojo gets a great and very credible take on the basic tonewheel...excellent chorus vibrato ,percussion and everything else.So when I use it,I just don't mess with the Leslie . I am about ready to try it through just a real Leslie and I bet that just kills.I think Crumar is a great company and Guido and Andrea are first class.We are fortunate that a lot of great companies take clonewheel seriously. Lots of hours of enjoyment there. 

[HammondDave]

2 hours ago, mrk7421 said:I think Crumar is a great company and Guido and Andrea are first class.We are fortunate that a lot of great companies take clonewheel seriously. Lots of hours of enjoyment there. 

In my numerous trips to Italy as a live performance lighting designer, I have found that Italians take the Hammond organ sound and tradition VERY seriously. 

[Delaware Dave]

3 hours ago, wineandkeyz said:

 

This might not be a concern for you, but I owned a Mojo 61 and ended up selling it because you lose notes at the top or bottom if you transpose the keyboard. My two main bands tune down a half-step, which meant that I lost the top C note. I realize this is probably due to Crumar's desire to be "authentic" or whatever, but Hammond, Roland, and Nord clonewheels don't rob notes like that.

 

3 hours ago, HammondDave said:

That’s strange. One of the bands I play with tunes down a half step and I don’t lose my top C. Maybe they corrected that with a firmware release? 

You are both correct.  The Mojo plays the C-C tones.  When you transpose the keyboard 1/2 step down you are actually playing B-B (from a true tone perspective). The Mojo only supports C-C so the bottom C is now a B tone and the organ model doesnt support the lower B.  Likewise when you play the upper C it is now an upper B so in fact you can play up to the C# and still get the note.

 

I have this very problem with my Gemini module as our band transposes 1/2 step down to support the vocals better. Because of this I lose the lower C on the organ and the lower F on the Clav due to modeling authenticity. In reality if i were playing the true analog originals I'd have the same issue an in addition I'd be playing alot more black keys (songs in E would have to be played in Eb, etc).  I solved this issue using a high quality pitch shifter that allows me to play in the normal key (lets say E) but produces the sound at the output as Eb.  Also, when we practice i use my L100P, I have the same issue using it because the band tunes down.  I use the 1/4" output of the hammond into the pitch shifter then the output of the pitch shifter into my Motion Sound leslie.  It takes the harmonics coming out of the hammond and detunes the tones 1/2 step before going to the leslie.  Voila!  I bought mine used for pennies on the dollar, not a single problem with it. 

 

Pitch shifter link

 

[DroptopBroham]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:21 AM, M_G said:

 

Well, where have all those "Crumar Priests" gone ???

 

 

The Crumar Priests are just following the money or free gear like they did when they were shilling for Crumar. How many different clonewheels did Joey D pimp out bitd (RIP) not to mention the P. Mauriat saxes from Taiwan.

 

The Mojo smokes the XK5, that's clear. The Numa Organ 2 also spanks the XK5 but the overdrive isn't as killer as the Mojo's.

 

The XK5 is solid but way overpriced when compared to the Mojo and Numa. I've got nothing against Suzuki, I have an M109R that I love and had a Hayabusa 20 years ago. Their bikes are badass and affordable, their organs are meh and overpriced. You are just paying for a name like you do with Harley and Indian.

[b3halt]

The true comparison should be how those clones sound compared to the real thing. The XK5 can sound very very close to my B3 after tweaking as well as the SK(X) Pro. I have not used the Mojo for a long time because two units I received had problems again and again.

It's all about how satisfied you are with your rig. After trying almost all the clones, I found what I like.

 

Some people say it sounds thin, but how? If you shoot a video with a crappy mic or some EQ settings, it can sound very different. It's not a credible source. I always use the real maintained B3 as a reference, then compare those clones, and if possible, I tweak them to see how close they can sound to my B3.

About the Leslie sim, it's a sim. If you use the sim, you have to compromise. If you use the vintage Leslie, the 3300, the 2101mks, the Tornado 315, 115, the Vortex, and some others, it's not a sim, so it's a different story. The sim can never beat the real thing. Again, if you use the sim, it's all about how you tweak and how much tweakablity those clones can offer.

I think this type of discussion or comparison is not so much meaningful...

[M_G]

6 hours ago, DroptopBroham said:

The Mojo smokes the XK5, that's clear. The Numa Organ 2 also spanks the XK5

 

LOL !

 

[Paul Harrison]

7 hours ago, DroptopBroham said:

 

... I've got nothing against Suzuki, I have an M109R that I love and had a Hayabusa 20 years ago. Their bikes are badass and affordable, their organs are meh and overpriced. You are just paying for a name like you do with Harley and Indian.

 

The Suzuki Musical Instrument Corporation (founded by Manji Suzuki in 1953) isn't connected to the Suzuki Motor Corporation (founded by Michio Suzuki in 1909) ... same name, different company.

[Outkaster]

15 hours ago, DroptopBroham said:

 

The Crumar Priests are just following the money or free gear like they did when they were shilling for Crumar. How many different clonewheels did Joey D pimp out bitd (RIP) not to mention the P. Mauriat saxes from Taiwan.

 

The Mojo smokes the XK5, that's clear. The Numa Organ 2 also spanks the XK5 but the overdrive isn't as killer as the Mojo's.

 

The XK5 is solid but way overpriced when compared to the Mojo and Numa. I've got nothing against Suzuki, I have an M109R that I love and had a Hayabusa 20 years ago. Their bikes are badass and affordable, their organs are meh and overpriced. You are just paying for a name like you do with Harley and Indian.

You realize they are two different companies? and no way an XK5 gets smoked by a Mojo. 

[Old No7]

11 hours ago, b3halt said:

The true comparison should be how those clones sound compared to the real thing.

 

OK, but to which REAL THING?

 

Is it a 1957? 1954?  B3?  C3? An A whatever? M3?  Condition?  Age?  Leakage?  Which Leslie?  New/old tubes?

 

11 hours ago, b3halt said:

I think this type of discussion or comparison is not so much meaningful...

 

Since there is no "ONE" Hammond sound/tone, you're probably right...

 

Old No7

[Adan]

12 hours ago, b3halt said:

I think this type of discussion or comparison is not so much meaningful...

These types of discussions used to be more meaningful when clones were not very good, and some were not-very-gooder than others.  Now that every dedicated clone you can buy is an excellent simulation of the real thing, these discussions all have an angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin quality to them.

 

The most important decision one can make for authenticity is not which clone to buy, but whether you go to the trouble to use a real rotating speaker, which I think was kind of your point as well, and which has very significant logistical implications for the self-sufficient gigging keyboardist.

[Outkaster]

19 hours ago, Adan said:

These types of discussions used to be more meaningful when clones were not very good, and some were not-very-gooder than others.  Now that every dedicated clone you can buy is an excellent simulation of the real thing, these discussions all have an angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin quality to them.

 

The most important decision one can make for authenticity is not which clone to buy, but whether you go to the trouble to use a real rotating speaker, which I think was kind of your point as well, and which has very significant logistical implications for the self-sufficient gigging keyboardist.

True this stuff started back in Harmony Central days with the first Nords and CX-3 in 2001. 

[pinkfloydcramer]

7 hours ago, Outkaster said:

True this stuff started back in Harmony Central days with the first Nords and CX-3 in 2001. 

Quote

Ha! I remember those days! So funny to think there was even a controversy, because the NE2 organ blows the CX3 away, at least it did before those Vent thingies came along. May as well keep these clone wars going on several fronts, I say.

[Outkaster]

That forum is still alive also.  I post over there once in awhile also.

[DroptopBroham]

 

Okay I take that back then, I do have something against Suzuki Music, they are just trying to cash in on the Hammond name. Suzuki motors I love, innovative and affordable.

 

I do love both Yamahas though, Yamaha Music puts out some great horns and keyboards and pianos that are affordable and Yamaha Motors makes killer reliable motorcycles. Just wish they would've kept producing the Eluder.

 

Really the only issue I have with the Mojo 61 is the freaking dental floss inspired power cable. I need to tie it off to my x-stand. Putting the Mojo on the second tier with the power brick dangling makes the power cut out during gigs and you have to wiggle around the barrel to get in going again but soundwise it's all balls. Sounds amazing running through a 3300.

[HammondDave]

25 minutes ago, DroptopBroham said:

 

Okay I take that back then, I do have something against Suzuki Music, they are just trying to cash in on the Hammond name. Suzuki motors I love, innovative and affordable.

 

I do love both Yamahas though, Yamaha Music puts out some great horns and keyboards and pianos that are affordable and Yamaha Motors makes killer reliable motorcycles. Just wish they would've kept producing the Eluder.

 

Really the only issue I have with the Mojo 61 is the freaking dental floss inspired power cable. I need to tie it off to my x-stand. Putting the Mojo on the second tier with the power brick dangling makes the power cut out during gigs and you have to wiggle around the barrel to get in going again but soundwise it's all balls. Sounds amazing running through a 3300.

Just wrap the cable around the hooks above the socket and store the brick in your stand.
 

New 61’s don’t have the brick. They have an internal power supply.