Playing with a bass player and staying out of his lane

[kpl1228]

Easing back into the weekend warrior gig world.....played three or four gigs this summer with a four-piece band as an extra member. And a couple of moments happened where on, say, a G-chord I played the root and he went up to the B. I'm sure the song and the band called for the B but I was just there to add color, basically. but the color was all wrong. I'd get a stinkeye and maybe a comment over a beer later (he's a good friend) but I knew I needed to lay off the low stuff there, or at least, get on track with him.

This has long been an issue for me, as I reflect, in the years even where I played every weekend I would sometime go to the lower part of the keyboard and sometimes it was ok, sometimes not. It made me stay in the upper parts of the keyboard a lot.

Playing with bands that are mostly classic rock and some originals, so lots of piano and organ patches on the synths, heavy on the right hand. Which suits me just fine.

Anyone else have a struggle with this? Thoughts and advice welcome.

KL

[Threadslayer]

When I used to gig all the time - always with a bass player - I never had a problem with it. Now, after all this time playing by myself, I really should keep my left hand in my pocket when I sit in with others.

[ImproKeys]

Maybe just take a 49 keys to the gig 😉

[sunspot]

Add more Doors cover tunes my friend, and tell him to lay back. 😁

[CEB]

Depends. Context matters there are several aspects to this.  Evacuating the ass end is the song losing the guts of tune is often not the answer.   It depends.   EQ often matters more than notes. 

[Docbop]

Bass legend Ron Carter's well known comment he gives to piano players is "stay within the S's in Steinway and Sons.   

 

Then the famous Sonny Rollin's when asked why he used a guitar player versus a piano player a lot was... piano is too dam big and steps on everyone.   

 

My favorite teacher in music school is one of the busy bass players in L.A. one of those guys rumoured to know 5000 tunes.   He told us about playing with one of the top LA piano players doing the gigs and all seemed good.  Then no more calls when that piano player was on the same gig.   Someone told him that the piano player said your playing did work with his approach.   Then he gets a call of a gig and it the same piano again and no changing the lineup.   So he plays the gig and listens closer to the piano player and adjust his lines a bit.   Gig finishes piano player all smiles and they continued to work together on gigs. 

 

So those statement point out it about finding your opening within the music, you place to fit in musically, volume, or timbre.   So no flat rules don't do this or that when working with a bass.  But listen for where you fit in that might mean left hand softer,  maybe don't go so low,  change your sound but timbre wise.   Play the situation, watch reaction of the bass player,  adjust even ask.  There is no one size fits all for approach.  

[stoken6]

Interesting topic. In a (pop/rock) band context I'll typically play with "one right hand" (LH does nothing) or "two right hands" (piano/organ or a similar split).  If I'm playing (say) an Elton John number which calls for a full LH+RH piano performance then @Docbop's advice applies. Roll off some bass EQ, or maybe don't wander so low down the keyboard. 

Of course, on Elton-style material, bass is often playing roots low down, so even if you intersect with the bass player, you won't clash. 

 

I played Queen "Don't Stop Me Now" on Saturday, another LH+RH example. The second bar of the pre-chorus (F7 chord) has the bass moving to a high Eb ("burning through the sky...") - and that's where you could get into trouble. I'd forgotten that change, but I instinctively eased off the LH volume and rose an octave to get out of the way.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Baldwin Funster]

Playing with a bass player=

Left hand in pocket.

 

Playing with a sax player=

Right hand in pocket.

 

Playing with bass, sax and guitar player=

Why did you call me?

 

I still get paid right?

[mate stubb]

Cut some low end on your piano.

[Delaware Dave]

I played in a band where the bass player would always bitch about the keys and the lower end clashing with his bass.  He left the band and the new bass player never said one word. I didnt adjust my playing style at all.  You can either cut back (EQ out) the bass on your rig or play the left hand one octave up (or find a non-complaining bass player).

[CEB]

If you are playing covers do what is on the record. If a bassist bitches tell him to listen to the record.   Also know how to EQ your stuff. 

[CEB]

I mean … do the contra basses bitch about the tubas. 

[Leroy C]

I'm actually a bass player by trade.  Despite that, I hate the meme that I see among bassists that "the keys players shouldn't play in my range!"  It's not about the range; it's about the arrangement.  (Clever phrasing, yes?!  ) There's tons of music that has keys play way down low, and it's not a problem.  But a lot of amateurish bassists don't seem to understand this ...

[KuruPrionz]

One could also record the live and practice sound of the band. A small Tascam or Zoom recorder can be a very useful tool in many ways. 

The recording will not lie. If the low end is cluttered, everyone will hear it. If not, they won't. If the bassist is not mucking things up but the bottom end is messy, then there is a problem. There are solutions. 

The variables are endless. 

 

I've played in a variety of bands, a trio with the keyboardist doing bass, a drummer and me on guitar, various 3, 4, 5 and 6 piece bands, acoustic guitar duos and so on. I've played a fair number of gigs on bass. I don't play keyboards. Often, it works. Sometimes, it doesn't.

 

Long ago a friend told me "Whatever I do, don't do that." This is good advice in general. 

[MathOfInsects]

I agree there is no "one size fits all." But the most common adjustment that "home players" have to make is to stop playing like you are alone. 

 

I think of the bass as "the rest of the keyboard." Ideally you'll build your part above or around the bass. But unison lines can also sound good sometimes, and so can a nice deep piano note below the bass, depending on the moment. *In general* though, you'll stop doing with your left hand what there is another guy there to do. 

If you freelance, and play with others who freelance, there are lots of songs that are "keyboard" parts as a bassline that bass players always play, live. You have to just listen to who's playing what and "hit it where they ain't."

I may have told this before but I almost got into an actual fight on a wedding gig when I first moved here. The song was "Use Me," which has that low clav part, and also a pedaled bass part. I started playing the low clav part, and the bass player walked over to me and pointed to my left hand and said, "Hey. Right hand only pal. Get your left hand off the board." I thought he was kidding but it became instantly clear that he wasn't. I said, "Just play your part. This is the clav part, there's also a bass part." He stood there and stared at me and refused to play until I stopped playing the part. Literally refused to take part in the song. I looked at the band leader and said, "I'm going to pop this guy." He, whose gig it was, said, "Then you're both not playing. Just deal with it at break."

You can't play that line up high, it sounds ridiculous. So I just switched to an organ sound and told him to go ahead and play it and I'd play something else. Which we both did, which meant the song actually didn't have the bass part in it that night.

But for a moment, the same hands that he was afraid were laying down a bassline, were itching to lay down a bass player. 

[JohnH]

Then there's songs like Celebration, which has a piano playing over the bass part.

[CHarrell]

I struggle with this too, I'm always worried about stepping on a bass player to the point where my default is to exclusively play out of that range, but then I listen to dudes like Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock flirt with that low end quite a bit. As many have said, I think it's a matter of arrangement, whether written or improvised. If the bass player is doing a busy walking line for example, you're almost always gonna be better off staying out of that range, but who's to say some stabs or little accents down there don't sound good?

[obxa]

3 hours ago, stoken6 said:

or "two right hands" (piano/organ or a similar split). 

This exactly:    For anything pop-rock.-blues-R&B.    Horns/string parts/synth hook lines etc. with your hand of choice. Think something like "superstition" doing the clav and horn parts.  Or "Don't do me like that"- playing both organ and piano parts.      So you forget about the bass entirely.   It's a mindset thing. 

 

Jazz/Funk/Blues:  learn about rootless and shell voicings. 

 

This is one reason I like 73 note keyboards, keeps me out of Bass player's range. 

 

 

I sometimes have a problem coming from a stretch of solo gigs  (doing stride, walking bass etc) and forget to go back to regular comping with band, takes a minute to rethink.

 

 

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

The song was "Use Me," which has that low clav part,

I've had the same issue with bass players on gigs who've not really listened to the tune, or just reading a chart.  Same  experience with that song!

 

  50's style is prime example.     Often have "friendly" discussions on oldies shows where there's often  boogie woogie style LH  that's in  unison with bass. Many of those old Elvis, Jerry Lee, Frankie Ford etc. tunes  have bass and piano in unison or interweaved together.    Or the infamous "Cool Jerk".    I've had bass players complain even though it's that way on the record.      Worked with the late , great Frankie Ford  (Sea Cruise, Rockin Pneumonia) for bunch of shows.  He'd often get up from the piano to sing up front,  then  I'd  either have to then run over from my station and cover, or play his piano part on my rig.    He was insistent on having the LH drive hard, and bass follow- so that ended the argument. 

 

 

[Reezekeys]

Doesn't your ear (meaning, your brain) tell you when your voicings conflict with something else in the band arrangement? When you hear that, stop doing that!

[ksoper]

In Nashville I had RH on the piano and LH playing pads, EP, organ, or anything else on another board. The FOH guy bandpassed me anyway. Now, if the piano part was originally played by Pig, then the piano plays the bass part in lock step with the bass player. 

 

Context, but generally don't step on the bass player. 

[timwat]

When the folks you play with regularly say you have "big ears", this is what they mean.

 

And if folks you play with regularly aren't telling you that...it is something you should aspire to hear one day.

 

The difficultly, I think, is that this is a skill that can only be developed when playing with others. And too often in some genres / band situations, players are more focused on "playing the part on the record" or similar than coming into the gig (or rehearsal) with an open mind to first listen to what your bandmates are playing. We sometimes have threads bemoaning the fact that <insert bandmate> isn't playing the "right part" (the part on whatever recording was supposed to be reference). 

 

I might suggest that's an opportunity to adjust what you're playing rather than silently fume about <insert bandmate>'s lack of dogged adherence to "the rules"...while I stubbornly hammer out exactly what I spent hours learning and practicing. While at some level, you sure showed them, at a much more important level (since, I presume, you're collectively playing for a listening audience), what the band is presenting for listeners is...suboptimal.

 

In more improvisational genres, it's all about someone taking risks and then the game's afoot. But even in genres where that's not the primary thing...the big difference between slavishly trying to ape your part and "doing no harm" by making the overall band sound better is...big ears.

[Baldwin Funster]

Nowhere to run, like other Little Martha tunes has a low pitched sax playing in the range of the bass but a different line. Since I'm playing the horn line on the chorus and not much else I decided to play that low sax part too. I was waiting for the hammer to drop. It never happened.

1. I keep it low in the mix.

2. It's on the record.

3. It makes the song sound better.

4. The sometimes grouchy bass player didn't seem to notice.

 

I wouldn't even attempt to put that in anything else except maybe very early Little Richard.

[KuruPrionz]

1 hour ago, timwat said:

When the folks you play with regularly say you have "big ears", this is what they mean.

 

And if folks you play with regularly aren't telling you that...it is something you should aspire to hear one day.

 

The difficultly, I think, is that this is a skill that can only be developed when playing with others. And too often in some genres / band situations, players are more focused on "playing the part on the record" or similar than coming into the gig (or rehearsal) with an open mind to first listen to what your bandmates are playing. We sometimes have threads bemoaning the fact that <insert bandmate> isn't playing the "right part" (the part on whatever recording was supposed to be reference). 

 

I might suggest that's an opportunity to adjust what you're playing rather than silently fume about <insert bandmate>'s lack of dogged adherence to "the rules"...while I stubbornly hammer out exactly what I spent hours learning and practicing. While at some level, you sure showed them, at a much more important level (since, I presume, you're collectively playing for a listening audience), what the band is presenting for listeners is...suboptimal.

 

In more improvisational genres, it's all about someone taking risks and then the game's afoot. But even in genres where that's not the primary thing...the big difference between slavishly trying to ape your part and "doing no harm" by making the overall band sound better is...big ears.

I was in a Motown cover band that had 6 pieces - 2 frontmen/vocalist, a keyboard/vocal, drums, bass and guitar/harmony vocal (me). 

You CAN"T cover all the parts in all the songs with a group that size. Motown songs have strings, horns, choirs, sometimes all three of those, drums and tamborine, piano and organ, 3 guitars etc. So you do what you can or do what you must depending. 

And the audience didn't care at all. They wanted a groove to dance to and a chorus they could sing along.

I was in a band that regularly went from 3 pieces to up to 9 depending on the gig. The singer knew thousands of songs off the top of his head, we hardly ever practiced and there never was a set list. It's "root hog or die" in that situation, you just have to play it.

I was in another band that started with 5 pieces and ended up with 4 and again, a lead singer that knew lots of songs (several hundred), no practice and no set list. 

I had survived the previous band so this one wasn't so tough. 

Sometimes you can't play "just like the song" because you've never heard the song. That happened often in both of those bands. 

And, the audience didn't care at all. They wanted a groove to dance to and chorus they could sing along.

 

I think we tend to overcomplicate things when we don't really need to. 

[PianoMan51]

This morning I had a ‘rehearsal’ with the bassist I’ve been doing duets with for the last 5 years. Upright Bass, acoustic piano and I also sing. The great American Songbook. 
 

We have never rehearsed. We know how bass and piano work together from experience.

 

But, as our audience is disappearing, we’re adding a completely new line of newer songs that we haven’t played together and for which there’s not a lot of examples on how to work out more modern songs with bass and piano but no drums.

 

The entire session was me giving him explicit permission to take over certain musical parts from the piano.

 

Example 1 is Blueberry Hill. We got a request last week for it and played it ok. My notes to the bass: you take over the Fats Domino LH bass line. It’s yours, and will be on every other song like that.

 

Example 2 was a basic bluesy shuffle. Slip Sliding Away. I’m used to playing a LH shuffle ostinato pattern like a rhythm guitar. What should the bass do? Well the answer was for me to move the LH pattern up an octave and soften it. Now the bass has room to make music.

 

Example 3 basic 60s soul funk: Mustang Sally. I said I would be happy with some Pino Palladino double stops. So I stopped playing below middle C.
 

Example 4 was songs that were written on finger picked acoustic guitar.like ‘If You Could Read My Mind Love”. Like most pianists my age I can reasonably fake this style with two hands. But I requested that the bass act like the lower two guitar strings. Play rhythmic ostinatos, use lots of pedal point (don’t follow all the chord changes) and keep the constant beat going since we have no drummer.

 

This session was me consciously giving away parts that I can play well. To get better human balance between the two of us. 

[wereMole88]

I use the lower end mostly when it's a typical keyboard intro (99 luftballon etc). Usually stop playing there when the bass player comes in. There's a couple of exceptions where I do play along but that usually evolves from having done the song for a while and knowing what works. He never complains about the lower key parts, although he does mention it when the volumes aren't balanced.

[PianoMan51]

This might give some ideas on how bass and piano can work together…

 

[JamPro]

So I am convinced this is a two-way street.  I have played with plenty of bass players - not all, but plenty - who play louder at every solo, no matter whose solo it is.  I myself find it very unhelpful to start my keys solo having to outshout the rhythm section.

 

As a keyboardist, I work hard at developing the chops to back up all kinds of instrumentalists and styles.  I have yet to play with a bass player who knows how to properly back up Stride-style piano.  Or for that matter, boogie-woogie playing.  Hell, too many bass players can't even play their way thru a standard Fakebook chart.

 

Respect the keyboard players' lane: I will be playing that bassline on Flashlight and I Wish, etc.

[Al Quinn]

Rules aren’t cool. For the most part they just put us in a box which limits creativity. If we listen to what’s happening around us and contribute complimentary sounds everyone is happy. I can’t think a single time this hasn’t been the case. And, I do venture into the low register on occasion.

 

I read the Rom Carter thought posted earlier in this thread and immediately thought of the McCoy Tyner Super Trios album. I’m gonna go out on limb and guess Ron didn’t tell McCoy which register he shouldn’t play in. 

[The Real MC]

While I respect the bass player's toes, I had far too many frustrations with bass players who don't lock with the rhythm section and/or don't play the bass part right.  I'm getting ready to start up an 80s top40 band that the ladies have been asking for, and the drums/bass will be sequenced because no drummer or bass player will want to play those boring parts.  Hardly the first top40 band I have played in, and the audience doesn't care whether they hear a human or a machine.

[stoken6]

14 hours ago, PianoMan51 said:

This session was me consciously giving away parts that I can play well. To get better human balance between the two of us. 

Your entire post is a masterclass in what we folks call "arranging". Superb.

 

3 hours ago, JamPro said:

I will be playing that bassline on [...] I Wish

As well as the main keyboard riff, and the synth lines in the intro, and the horns?

 

Cheers, Mike.