stage presence, how do you deal with that as a keyboard player?

[timwat]

Back on topic - so much of the conversation seems to come from a musician's notion of what their role really is. Am I entertainer, and people expect to be entertained? Am I artist, and people are expected to appreciate my art? Am I wallpaper, and should therefore be ignored? (I'm consciously not addressing church and worship related topics for the sake of forum rules).

 

And are these roles distinct and separate, or is there room for Venn diagram overlap? 

[PianoMan51]

20 minutes ago, timwat said:

Back on topic - so much of the conversation seems to come from a musician's notion of what their role really is. Am I entertainer, and people expect to be entertained? Am I artist, and people are expected to appreciate my art? Am I wallpaper, and should therefore be ignored? (I'm consciously not addressing church and worship related topics for the sake of forum rules).

 

And are these roles distinct and separate, or is there room for Venn diagram overlap? 

As the questions get deeper, the answers might be more elusive. But I think that the roles of entertainer, artist and wallpaper are ones that we all shift between when we are in a great conversation. I tell a funnily story, then back away and let others do their thing, then come back with an insightful viewpoint. Isn’t this exactly what we want onstage from ourselves and our bandmates and later after the show from our audience?

[timwat]

3 minutes ago, PianoMan51 said:

Isn’t this exactly what we want onstage from ourselves and our bandmates and later after the show from our audience?

Ahh..now it gets even deeper. What do we want, as musicians, from the experience, from our bandmates, from the audience?

 

And then...what do we want, as musicians, when we are seated in audience taking in a live performance?

[Mighty Motif Max]

I have done both, but strongly prefer sitting, even if it's not solo gigs. I am in a band currently that prefers me to stand and play, but I never play as dynamically (especially with semi-weighted keyboards). As someone who makes a lot of use of the expression pedal for bringing in/out layers and such, standing just gets in the way of things too. I say if the drummer can sit, so can the keys player. The important part is that you are visibly engaged with the music in some way (i.e. not sitting like a rock the whole time).

[MathOfInsects]

There are lots of different endeavors represented on this forum, so I think everyone brings their own background and realm to bear.

 

I think the goal in all cases is never to be the show unless you're the show. Looking bored on a hypey gig is as much "being the show" as looking too enthusiastic on a "serious music" gig. Sometimes sitting can translate visually as disengagement or energy, and sometimes standing can translate as a lack of seriousness or commitment.

In general an "organ/EP/AP" show or gig is usually seated and a "sounds and patches" show or gig is often standing.

But there are always other factors. A tiny area in a sh*thole bar, I might just stand so I can take up the minimum amount of room, even if in theory I'd be using my feet a lot, or if that same band on a large stage would be a sitting gig. Flip side, a background-music gig where nothing I did "performance-wise" would matter anyway, I might just sit because it fits the vibe, even if it otherwise wouldn't matter rig-wise.

Sometimes I go weeks without bringing a throne to a gig just because I'm tired of sitting all the time. 

If I'm "the show," I'm as likely to stand as to sit. I don't like being planted there unless there's a really good reason for it.

One thing I've noticed is that people often forget to anticipate body language when they set up their standing rig. I always set up just a little low if I can, so that I'm not stuck there in yoga tree pose in order to have things at the right height. I'd rather have to bear down just a bit to get things where I want them, and it makes for a better performance vibe anyway. 

 

Playing music is my favorite place to be, no matter the gig. Every gig is my favorite gig.  I do think looking like you want to be there makes the biggest difference in general for those watching you. Even if I'm reading off a chart or screen, I try to signal my engagement with others and the material, since sometimes people equate reading with not being totally "there." (I disagree with this, but because it's out there as a belief, I always try to telegraph my engagement if I can.)

 

So the biggest question isn't really standing or sitting (to me), or dancing or not dancing, it's being "there" or not being "there." 

 

[nursers]

2 hours ago, Stokely said:

If anyone has any "outdoor in the heat resort, poolside" ideas, I'm all ears.   Just don't say "jorts", I don't do jorts (anymore).

 

Just declare it's Pants Free Friday and go commando

[DaveMcM]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:35 AM, Paul Woodward said:

I’m curious, why does no one ever ask a drummer to stand up to play? 😉

 Somebody say stand up drummer? Not to mention a great cover of this tune.

 

[jazzpiano88]

Chick Corea weighed in on this subject when, right before firing guitarist Scott Henderson, he told Scott:  "your perception of how you sound is not as important as the audience's perception of your stage movements".   This was in response to Scott wanting to stand in the sweet spot of his stereo setup rather than preening out front and doing dance steps with Chick, John and Dave in the Elektric Band.    I thought they were kind of cool, not unlike the TOP horn section doing their dance steps but Scott was having none of it and went on with Zawinul.

 

Be that as it may, nearly all keyboardists I've ever been into, sit, so I've never taken on an inferiority complex by doing what is natural.... sitting.

 

[Reezekeys]

1 minute ago, JazzPiano88 said:

doing dance steps with Chick, John and Dave in the Elektric Band

 

Dance steps?! Is there video of this anywhere? Dave Weckl got up from his kit, went out front and did dance steps with Chick & John? Wow.

[Leroy C]

1 hour ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

I say if the drummer can sit, so can the keys player. 

You win the thread. I will not read any posts after this! 

[jazzpiano88]

10 minutes ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Dance steps?! Is there video of this anywhere? Dave Weckl got up from his kit, went out front and did dance steps with Chick & John? Wow.

 

Sorry I mis-typed and meant to say Eric, but I don't have a video (saw them live with Jimmy, Eric and Mike) -- just going by Scott's interviews (and not even sure if Eric was in the band at the time).

[PianoMan51]

2 hours ago, timwat said:

Ahh..now it gets even deeper. What do we want, as musicians, from the experience, from our bandmates, from the audience?

 

And then...what do we want, as musicians, when we are seated in audience taking in a live performance?

Well, my desires have changed since I was a pup. Today, I want to experience a human being. But only through their music. Quite simple to describe. But very rarely achieved.

 

I tried to explain this to an older bandmate as he was deciding to retire from performing. I said “we don’t care if you can still play fast, we care that you’re a human being who has lived a life inside music and is willing to share it with us.”

 

 

[Reezekeys]

8 minutes ago, JazzPiano88 said:

Sorry I mis-typed and meant to say Eric, but I don't have a video

 

Damn I thought I was gonna see some pretty amazing footage!

 

BTW, that photo - Steps Ahead at 7th Ave. South?

[DaveMcM]

To stand or to sit to me depends on the gig. If it a jazz gig or duo/trio thing at an intimate type of venue, then I'll sit. But if its a bar/party type of gig, then standing is the only way. However, even when my keys are at standing height, I have a bar stool that I will use when I need to play a piano part with proper technique. Unfortunately, standing or sitting, from the audience perspective, all they see a head bobbing around. As far as they know, I could be doing my ironing, playing solitaire or cooking dinner. the tilting the keyboard back thing won't work with a two tier setup. And there is never enough room to do an 'L' setup. And I'm not going to go as far as dressing up like Donald Duck, though it did work well for Sir Elton.

[jazzpiano88]

1 hour ago, Reezekeys said:

BTW, that photo - Steps Ahead at 7th Ave. South?

 

Yep.  Don Grolnick, Peter Erskine, Mike Mainieri, Eddie Gomez and Michael Brecker of Steps Ahead performing at the Seventh Avenue South, NYC, 1981

[kaptainkeys]

The last few gigs I've done have all been sitting gigs (mainly jazz and dinner music stuff) but at home the way I have my 'rig' (if you can call a PC4 on a stand a rig) set up is with a Z stand at a height that is comfortable for both sitting on a drum throne at its highest height and standing, and then I can alternate between the two depending on the song's feel and required footwork.  If it is an upbeat rocker where the most I need is some sustain pedal, you can bet that I will be standing, but if it is a slow ballad where I'm doing organ swells or fading in strings with the expression pedal, I'm sitting.  The only major exception to the slow=sitting/fast=standing rule is when I'm playing clav stuff with a wah I'll sit (mainly on songs where there aren't keys parts in the original so I'm doubling up rhythm guitar parts and using the wah for some extra flavor) or if I'm singing too, then I'll stand unless the footwork is impossible standing.

[NewImprov]

When playing keys, I play seated, no matter what. I tried playing standing years ago, and it never felt comfortable, except in the bands where I was playing bass guitar and keys, in those I was mostly playing bass and standing, and just grabbing key parts as I could. I'm currently gigging in 3 separate bands, and I feel like there are different levels of "performance" inherent in the styles we play, though I don't particularly feel I change my approach. One band is a reggae tribute band, one is a funk/hip-hop afrobeat band, and the third is a free-improv electronics/avant fusion trio.

 

Let me digress into a bit of spirituality here. I don't consider myself a Buddhist per se, but I have spent a lot of time sort of spiritually adjacent to Buddhism, my wife is a student of both the Tibetan and Zen traditions, and I have attended a number of workshops, presentations, etc. One thing I have taken away form these experiences is the ideas of approaching tasks with mindfulness, joy, and presence. This has affected my approach to music performance. I truly love my bands, both the material and the individuals, and when asked to participate in new bands, I give serious thought to whether I can find joy within working in the band. That takes care of a lot of the performance issues, I'm onstage because I truly want to be playing this music with these people.

 

With the Reggae and funk bands, I pretty much do what @MAJUSCULEsays above, I try to give 150% of my personality, staying in contact with the other bands members, listening and responding and reacting, and generally having as good a time as I can.

 

With the free-improv band, I feel like we get into a sort of deep concentration, all 3 of us are very focused on what we are playing, and I tend to barely perceive the audience. Oddly enough, the feedback I get from people who attend those shows is that we are very engaging and intense, that watching us is like sitting in on a conversation. A piece of feedback I often get about that band is that audience members feel like the music is more inviting and engaging by seeing us perform it live, if they heard a recording, it might be too out or avant-garde for them, but we make it approachable by making the process clear.

 

 

[D. Gauss]

Stage presence has nothing to do with sitting or standing, nor what instrument you play, nor much else, other than a projected physical vibe that connects with an audience on some level and provides a window into the performer's creative world.  To be clear, some folks have this the second they walk into a room, before they are even near an instrument or a stage.... miles davis, prince, etc.  others may not truly light up until the lights go down.  either way, it's a certain "something" that draws you in. 

  I saw classical pianist Richard Goode over the weekend in NYC. He's 80 years old. He plays Beethoven sonatas. All of them. I think he has a few grammys (i'm not a classical guy so really don't know). He sits. He doesn't say a word.  well...he actually does, he hums along to what he's playing!  it's crazy, but it's infectuous. the guy enjoys it sooo much and it rubs off.

[TommyRude]

1 hour ago, D. Gauss said:

Stage presence has nothing to do with sitting or standing, nor what instrument you play, nor much else, other than a projected physical vibe that connects with an audience on some level and provides a window into the performer's creative world.  To be clear, some folks have this the second they walk into a room, before they are even near an instrument or a stage.... miles davis, prince, etc.  others may not truly light up until the lights go down.  either way, it's a certain "something" that draws you in. 

True.  Some of what you describe can also be called the "it" factor.  Some folks are born with it, others earn it, others might have it but lose it.  Using Prince as the example, did he have it before all his success?  Even though when younger he seemed super shy, and maybe even awkward, but his undeniable talent probably resulted in a perception of "presence", for sure whenever he played.  Sometimes methinks, the same thing we're calling presence for a musician/artist, might also be looked upon as someone who's very different than most others, perhaps gets bullied when they're young.  This was the case with Eminem, he writes about getting bullied.

[jeffincltnc]

22 hours ago, timwat said:

 

I wasn't aware Fripp toured with Gabe after the 2nd album tour in the late '70s.

 

Right.  David Rhodes was the guitar player on Secret World tour.  Maybe he is confused with Tony Levin who played with Fripp in King Crimson as Tony Levin has incredible stage presence with Peter Gabriel.

[Husker]

21 hours ago, Mighty Motif Max said:

..... The important part is that you are visibly engaged with the music in some way (i.e. not sitting like a rock the whole time).

 

Cough....Tony Banks. 

 

(Seriously, I love Tony Banks though.  He always just looked so cool to me sitting there doing his thing).

[D. Gauss]

37 minutes ago, Husker said:

 

Cough....Tony Banks. 

 

(Seriously, I love Tony Banks though.  He always just looked so cool to me sitting there doing his thing).

 

there's a reason Genesis and Floyd had giant light shows 

[JohnH]

I only sit for Doors or Santana gigs, because that is what Ray and Gregg did/does and I stand for all the rest. I just saw a video a band filmed of us for a promo NYE and realized I was staring at the set list in half the shots, so looking off to my left and down.Not good. It's not like I wasn't ready to play the songs either or have to do much button pressing to get to settings. I will make sure I don't do that in the future. Thankfully I am not the band's actual keyboard player so I saw in a finished version I am mostly cropped out and clips of their main guy are spliced into the video. One look towards the end of each song would have been enough notice for me. All my presets are memorized and easy to get to, so it's not like i have to stress getting ready for the next song.

[Emiel Minnee]

wohw guys didn't know this was going to be such a long topic.

 

But thanks for posting everyone, thinks this is something we all have to deal with.

 

 

 

Thanks for te great tips so far

[Emiel Minnee]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:11 PM, Reezekeys said:

 

Doesn't it depend on the gig? Your video is of a group playing for a church service. You're hired to do a job - it's not a concert where people come specifically to see you. I see music stands for the other musicians, everyone else is looking at the sheets like you are. I see nothing at all wrong with this picture and anyone that singles you out for lacking "stage presence" - for this particular gig at least - is wrong to say that, imo.

 

I'm doing a little jazz gig in a week. Folks will be coming to see us - it's an actual "show", we aren't background music. It's a one-off with a really good guitarist I'll be meeting for the first time at the gig. There's no rehearsal – he emailed the musicians his charts and we'll be "looking to much at the sheets" for sure - but that's the way it goes. Maybe that's a more acceptable visual with "those jazz guys"! 🙂 These performances are live-streamed, and I've played at this place in the past and seen the videos. Nothing like a single fixed camera showing a bunch of players with their eyes trained on their music stands or iPads for 45 minutes straight!

This is basically how I think also,  It is not like a giant pop-gig where everyone is get payed etc.   It is indeed for the service.

And we get advice, to look happier on stage or more engaged.  It is not all needed for this kind of thing.  But why I ask,  maybe there are small things we can change as a whole band>?

 

It is not for me only,   this was advice to the band in general. 

 

I'am engaged for 100%. but we do this practice in relativy short time, and I hang on something in front of me before me. while the chords are not that difficult.   

I can probably learn this from the top of my head btw,   think that helps?

[Al Quinn]

For the OP’s  gig I’d sit because to me the role is that of accompanist: it’s to elevate the sound of the band and help the singers shine. In my experience, the audience reacts positively when musicians are into the music. Faking it’s not an option for me: gotta be real. Having said that I’ve done plenty of gigs where I wasn’t playing my favorite music (e.g., many wedding gigs years ago) but still gave it my all.

 

I’ve played standing and sitting and if the music is challenging I’ll play it with less struggle if I’m sitting. Having said that, there are many things I can play equally well sitting or standing. In recent years, I’ve been playing a two keyboard rig which gives me the option of sitting when I play piano and standing (or sitting) when I play organ or synth. I don’t do it for appearances but, rather, to stretch my legs and to get a different aural perspective,

 

Some random but related thoughts:

- Check Leavell sits while Mick Jagger runs around like an aerobics instructor.

- Keith Jarrett plays ridiculous, one of kind piano while standing.

- Rick Wakeman plays at the highest level while standing.

- If we throw shade on each others music it’s likely less forum members will share their music. Not cool at all. Let’s support the arts and each other 🎵

[Emiel Minnee]

I agree with that, think I'm doing Key 2 for most of the time.  I provide the backup "ears candy" sound and think ok maybe the singers or the key1 player should do more of the stage performance.

 

For my idee this is like OK,   but ok maybe I could smile more,  but hey this is like 1 hour music,  can't do that all the time

[Emiel Minnee]

I feel btw not offended by the comments on the video I posted from our gig this thing?

 

 

I think because my English is not al that good, the video would illustrate it more as me describing it all

 

I like it that you all just comment on what you think about it, so don't feel bad about that

[Al Quinn]

Even if it doesn’t bother you (which I’m happy to hear) it may cause someone else to hesitate posting their music which, to me, would be a shame since we’re all hanging out a place called musicplayer.com 

[Emiel Minnee]

4 minutes ago, Al Quinn said:

Even if it doesn’t bother you (which I’m happy to hear) it may cause someone else to hesitate posting their music which, to me, would be a shame since we’re all hanging out a place called musicplayer.com 

agreed, we should just can post anything as a musician (and questions about it)  no matter what it is. And get fair comments

 

So is the policy here also I think