Solo gigs with just an iPad and a keyboard/MIDI controller? Is this a thing?

[Baggypants]

DS88 is a heavy lump.

[MalH]

On 2/27/2023 at 12:30 PM, MalH said:

I've been running an iPad as my main sound generator for the past couple of years but am about to go back to a hardware solution. The reason is latency. I have been running various hosts (Module, Auria or AUM hosting AUV3) all with a buffer of 128 @44kHz but there is still a very slight difference between the responsiveness compared to hardware. Last week I decided to quantify this by recording the outputs of my audio interface (iConnect Audio2+) hosting Module in parallel with the outputs of my keyboard (Casio PX5S). After optimising latency as much as I could, I could not get the interface to respond faster than 10ms slower than the hardware. This is not huge, but is like moving your monitor speaker about 3.4m further away, which does change the way you play. I will still use my iPad for pads, but for piano, epiano and organ I will stick with hardware. 

I finally made a choice on my next keyboard and received last week a Yamaha YC88 - what an amazing keyboard! I spent today running a comparison of the latency of the YC88 in-built sounds vs an iPad running through the YC888 audio interface. The result is that the iPad is about 20ms delayed which, while not large, is nevertheless noticeable to me for piano, epiano and organ. I'll therefore be relegating the iPad for synth pads and backgrounds only.

 

Here's what I did:

Load the YC88 piano patch (CFX) and pan it left.

Connect the iPad (2nd gen 12.9inch iPad pro) via usb to the YC88.

Load Korg Module piano patch on the iPad (hosted by AUM with 128buffer @44.1kHz) and pan right.

Configure MIDI to send from the YC88 to the iPad.

Record the stereo output of the YC88 into a separate computer and interface running Logic Pro.

Play various notes on the YC88 keyboard.

Compare the note start times - the right channel is delayed by about 20ms compared to the left.

 

Malcolm

[AnotherScott]

1 hour ago, MalH said:

Here's what I did:

Load the YC88 piano patch (CFX) and pan it left.

Connect the iPad (2nd gen 12.9inch iPad pro) via usb to the YC88.

Load Korg Module piano patch on the iPad (hosted by AUM with 128buffer @44.1kHz) and pan right.

Configure MIDI to send from the YC88 to the iPad.

Record the stereo output of the YC88 into a separate computer and interface running Logic Pro.

Play various notes on the YC88 keyboard.

Compare the note start times - the right channel is delayed by about 20ms compared to the left.

 

A possibly interesting experiment could be to do the same thing except bring the audio in from the iPad via the YC's line inputs instead of via its USB connection. I had one keyboard once where there was a lot less latency that way. 

[NHaezer]

On 2/23/2023 at 3:25 AM, summerinstereo said:

Hopefully this thread isn't too redundant.

 

Basically, I was/am looking for a great do-it-all keyboard, but iPads have been mentioned a couple of times to me so now I'm seriously considering them.

 

Someone is selling an iPad Air 5 in near-new condition for a low enough price that I'm really wanting to look into this idea.

 

Is this a thing I can do, and would it be relatively hassle-free?

 

- iPad with whatever software I need on it

- MIDI controller/keyboard

 

Plug those into the mixer and off I go?

 

Is it as simple as that?

 

Anyone here playing solo gigs and just using a MIDI controller with an iPad?

 

If anything went wrong, I have my acoustic guitar. I could also opt for a keyboard rather than a pure MIDI controller. 

But I am interested in straight up MIDI controller route as well.

 

Doing this, can I have backing tracks running at the same time? Will it stop the audio if I switch apps?
How are you guys quickly changing instruments/sounds?

Sorry about all the questions - this idea is relatively new to me, I'm only actually considering it now.

I've managed to sell what I need to and would have a few hundred dollars left over, after buying the iPad Air 5, for a keyboard or MIDI controller.

 

Part of me is already regretting selling the Casio, because the keybed was nice.. I hadn't considered the iPad idea until after I'd sold things.. lol.

Oh well, it happens and now I'd love to hear how this works.

 

I'm not in a band - just a solo act that currently plays acoustic guitar, but would love to add more value to venues and that includes a "full band" sound - I'm not really opposed to backing tracks and I understand there's apps on iPad's for looping etc anyway.. it seems like an infinitely more versatile way to go.. just want to make sure it's practical.

I do exactly this...iPad air 5, Camelot pro, 2 midi controller keyboards (one of those is an actual keyboard with not so good sounds - never had to use them), a small audio interface and a usb c hub (to have more ports and charge at the same time if need be)...they all live in one gig bag (except the iPad). I gig in a band once or twice a week like that - no issues.

[Paul Woodward]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:21 PM, MalH said:

I finally made a choice on my next keyboard and received last week a Yamaha YC88 - what an amazing keyboard! I spent today running a comparison of the latency of the YC88 in-built sounds vs an iPad running through the YC888 audio interface. The result is that the iPad is about 20ms delayed which, while not large, is nevertheless noticeable to me for piano, epiano and organ. I'll therefore be relegating the iPad for synth pads and backgrounds only.

 

Here's what I did:

Load the YC88 piano patch (CFX) and pan it left.

Connect the iPad (2nd gen 12.9inch iPad pro) via usb to the YC88.

Load Korg Module piano patch on the iPad (hosted by AUM with 128buffer @44.1kHz) and pan right.

Configure MIDI to send from the YC88 to the iPad.

Record the stereo output of the YC88 into a separate computer and interface running Logic Pro.

Play various notes on the YC88 keyboard.

Compare the note start times - the right channel is delayed by about 20ms compared to the left.

 

Malcolm

I don’t use AUM, but have you tried the same experiment with Module piano running alone (without AUM) to see if that makes a difference? Additionally, I notice more lag when the iPad has been used for hours/days and/or other apps are running. From a fresh boot it seems more responsive.

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

I don’t use AUM, but have you tried the same experiment with Module piano running alone (without AUM) to see if that makes a difference? Additionally, I notice more lag when the iPad has been used for hours/days and/or other apps are running. From a fresh boot it seems more responsive.

Try running AUM from a USB driver instead of the yamaha interface. I bet the latency disappears.

[jpgxk3]

Just looking into a very small living room type of rig using Ipad along with a Korg plug key interface. Can or does anyone know of a small midi controller that has 9 sliders? I just started searching, looking for a 25, 37, or 49 key controller. Just going to play VB3M and Korg Module Pro for some fun on the couch get togethers. Thanks, Joe.

[AnotherScott]

3 hours ago, Baldwin Funster said:

Try running AUM from a USB driver instead of the yamaha interface. I bet the latency disappears.

I don't know what you meant about a USB driver, but I agree that it could be worth seeing if there's a difference if you bypass the yamaha interface. So instead of bringing audio into the keyboard via USB, you could run a cable from the iPad's headphone jack to the keyboard's line audio input, and see if that changes anything. In addition, you could also use the 5-pin MIDI out instead of USB to get MIDI out of the keyboard into the iPad,

 

16 minutes ago, jpgxk3 said:

does anyone know of a small midi controller that has 9 sliders? I just started searching, looking for a 25, 37, or 49 key controller. 

Samson Graphite 49 is a pretty inexpensive and compact one. Roland A-500 Pro seems to be discontinued. I think Arturia, Nektar, Novation, and M-Audio all make 9-slider 49-key controllers, too.

[drawback]

1 hour ago, jpgxk3 said:

Just looking into a very small living room type of rig using Ipad along with a Korg plug key interface. Can or does anyone know of a small midi controller that has 9 sliders? I just started searching, looking for a 25, 37, or 49 key controller. Just going to play VB3M and Korg Module Pro for some fun on the couch get togethers. Thanks, Joe.

 

52 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Samson Graphite 49 is a pretty inexpensive and compact one. Roland A-500 Pro seems to be discontinued. I think Arturia, Nektar, Novation, and M-Audio all make 9-slider 49-key controllers, too.

Just be aware that some don’t have an expression pedal input, if organ is important. There is a workaround but it involves peripherals.

[Paul Woodward]

2 hours ago, jpgxk3 said:

Just looking into a very small living room type of rig using Ipad along with a Korg plug key interface. Can or does anyone know of a small midi controller that has 9 sliders? I just started searching, looking for a 25, 37, or 49 key controller. Just going to play VB3M and Korg Module Pro for some fun on the couch get togethers. Thanks, Joe.

I pair Korg Module with a Roland A800 Pro. They are not listed as discontinued (in UK, yet) and I see plenty of used models, same with the 500 and 300. They are quite well made so should be fine. Just ordered a set of VR09 drawbar knobs to mod mine and use as a second board with a Yamaha YC where they are mapped to the lower manual drawbars.

For quick, easy rehearsals, I sometimes use just the A800 and iPad with Module. Doesn’t get much lighter than that.

[Baldwin Funster]

49 minutes ago, Paul Woodward said:

I pair Korg Module with a Roland A800 Pro. They are not listed as discontinued (in UK, yet) and I see plenty of used models, same with the 500 and 300. They are quite well made so should be fine. Just ordered a set of VR09 drawbar knobs to mod mine and use as a second board with a Yamaha YC where they are mapped to the lower manual drawbars.

For quick, easy rehearsals, I sometimes use just the A800 and iPad with Module. Doesn’t get much lighter than that.

The Roland A800pro also has an expression port and a sustain port that works for leslie switching so no extra danglers needed. But the A800pro really gets flaky if bus power is low and on mine with an iPad 9gen it boots up but flickers and the velocity gets screwy and the control maps don't load right on bus power.

So a powered hub or a wall wart is needed.

Arturia essential works good on bus power but the action is worse than a Yam PSR. In fact if the essential had a PSRs action I would be using it.

[Paul Woodward]

11 minutes ago, Baldwin Funster said:

The Roland A800pro also has an expression port and a sustain port that works for leslie switching so no extra danglers needed. But the A800pro really gets flaky if bus power is low and on mine with an iPad 9gen it boots up but flickers and the velocity gets screwy and the control maps don't load right on bus power.

So a powered hub or a wall wart is needed.

Arturia essential works good on bus power but the action is worse than a Yam PSR. In fact if the essential had a PSRs action I would be using it.

Never noticed that problem running the 9th gen from the iPad, but my A800 came with he official PSU so I tend to use that to be on the safe side. Agree about the pedal inputs, and aftertouch is handy as is the ability to run USB and 5 pin MIDI at the same time. All in all, a great keyboard that is still rarely bettered at the price point.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Baldwin Funster said:

But the A800pro really gets flaky if bus power is low and on mine with an iPad 9gen it boots up but flickers and the velocity gets screwy and the control maps don't load right on bus power. So a powered hub or a wall wart is needed.

 

I've never trusted running my A800 from my iPad's battery - I've seen it work, also seen the flickering power, not to mention the infamous "this device requires too much power" alert. No issues at all when my CCK is getting power from my iPad's charging cube or a battery bank - those keep the iPad charged and run the A800 fine.

[Reezekeys]

1 hour ago, Paul Woodward said:

my A800 came with he official PSU

 

Maybe that's a UK law? I'm on my second A800, both gotten brand new, and there was definitely no PSU in the box.

 

Last time I looked the official Roland PSA was around $35 US and looked square-ish, but now I see theirs is pretty much identical to the cheap Chinese guys on Ebay - and those are less than $10 US. I have three of those. This is the Roland on the rolandus.com site now:

 

 

You can also power the A800 from a phone charger cube connected to the USB port (if you're using 5-pin midi) - I did that a few times using my old iPhone cube. My older Edirol PCR-M80's 5-pin midi was disabled when using USB power, not so the A-series.

[counterpoint]

On 5/29/2023 at 3:21 PM, MalH said:

I finally made a choice on my next keyboard and received last week a Yamaha YC88 - what an amazing keyboard! I spent today running a comparison of the latency of the YC88 in-built sounds vs an iPad running through the YC888 audio interface. The result is that the iPad is about 20ms delayed which, while not large, is nevertheless noticeable to me for piano, epiano and organ. I'll therefore be relegating the iPad for synth pads and backgrounds only.

 

Here's what I did:

Load the YC88 piano patch (CFX) and pan it left.

Connect the iPad (2nd gen 12.9inch iPad pro) via usb to the YC88.

Load Korg Module piano patch on the iPad (hosted by AUM with 128buffer @44.1kHz) and pan right.

Configure MIDI to send from the YC88 to the iPad.

Record the stereo output of the YC88 into a separate computer and interface running Logic Pro.

Play various notes on the YC88 keyboard.

Compare the note start times - the right channel is delayed by about 20ms compared to the left.

 

Malcolm

 

This was interesting to me so I ran a similar test...except I have an IPad Air - 5th Gen (2022).  I run Korg Module directly at 64 buffer without an intervening host.   I used the Master function on the YC to pan the IPad sound right, panned the YC sound left and recorded it on my Surface Pro using Studio One.  The difference was 10 to 12ms.   I wonder if AUM is slowing it up a hair or maybe it's the smaller buffer?  I've never used AUM or the like on my IPad so no experience there.   Perhaps worth a shot if it doesn't mess up your set-up too much to run Module outside of AUM.

[AnotherScott]

The smaller buffer (64 vs 128) would improve latency by 1.4 ms, so that's a factor, though a small part of it. But also, your iPad Air 5th gen is much faster than the 2nd gen 12.9inch iPad pro (in the range of twice as fast for single core processes, more for multicore). I don't know how much of a factor that might be.

 

 

 

[Paul Woodward]

2 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

Maybe that's a UK law? I'm on my second A800, both gotten brand new, and there was definitely no PSU in the box.

 

Last time I looked the official Roland PSA was around $35 US and looked square-ish, but now I see theirs is pretty much identical to the cheap Chinese guys on Ebay - and those are less than $10 US. I have three of those. This is the Roland on the rolandus.com site now:

 

 

You can also power the A800 from a phone charger cube connected to the USB port (if you're using 5-pin midi) - I did that a few times using my old iPhone cube. My older Edirol PCR-M80's 5-pin midi was disabled when using USB power, not so the A-series.

I bought second hand, so it was probably a purchase by the guy I bought it off to be fair. Looks nothing like that though. It’s a Boss brand.

[Reezekeys]

Yea that's the kind I used to see sold by Roland. It's not switched-mode so only operates at a single AC voltage. The cheap Chinese ones (and Roland's current one, I imagine) have the advantage of working anywhere in the world . This comes in handy for when I'm in the UK - all I need to bring is a plug adapter.

[sunspot]

23 hours ago, Reezekeys said:

 

I've never trusted running my A800 from my iPad's battery - I've seen it work, also seen the flickering power, not to mention the infamous "this device requires too much power" alert. No issues at all when my CCK is getting power from my iPad's charging cube or a battery bank - those keep the iPad charged and run the A800 fine.

I cannot comprehend why anyone would try to run a large high powered USB device from just an iPad's battery.  I mean, after all, the battery was really designed just to run, ya know...*the friggin iPad*.

[Reezekeys]

Exactly. Even if you've seen it work, why chance something like that? Especially in my case, where my iPad is the only sound source. One thing I know I don't want to do on a gig is constantly monitor the battery percentage!

[Baldwin Funster]

I've done some shady blues jams where wires going to and from your rig WILL GET STEPPED ON. Hopefully not tripped over but one isn't far from the other. If I have no wires I don't worry. There is the audio feed from me to the house mixer but at least I can eliminate the power cable. My Arturia essential board can run 6 or 8 hours off of my iPad so I'm not watching the battery.

Unfortunately the Arturia keybed sux and my roland A800pro won't run off the battery as I said above.

So that's why ect...

[sunspot]

In that case Baldwin, I wonder if a hefty USB power brick plugged into your CCK adapter with a stubby USB cable and taped on top of your KB would serve you well...

[Baldwin Funster]

5 minutes ago, sunspot said:

In that case Baldwin, I wonder if a hefty USB power brick plugged into your CCK adapter with a stubby USB cable and taped on top of your KB would serve you well...

I may look into that. Though I've skipped that jam the last couple of months.

[The Piano Man]

Can someone help with the following setup?

 

I am hoping to do the following:

 

Control Ravenscroft ios and

Control iFretless

 

Send each app to different audio outputs

 

I have a Korg Plugkey but it only has a stereo pair. 
 

1. Is there a midi/usb device like the Plugkey but that offers two pairs of audio outputs at 6.3mm jack?

2. Can you route Ravenscroft to the first pair and iFretless to the second pair whilst controlling both via midi out on my controller (a Technics P50?) 

 

Thanks!

[AnotherScott]

8 hours ago, The Piano Man said:

I am hoping to...send each app to different audio outputs

 

I have a Korg Plugkey but it only has a stereo pair. 
 

1. Is there a midi/usb device like the Plugkey but that offers two pairs of audio outputs at 6.3mm jack?

2. Can you route Ravenscroft to the first pair and iFretless to the second pair whilst controlling both via midi out on my controller (a Technics P50?) 

I'm not sure of this, but I think any USB audio interface with multiple pairs of 6.3mm outs would work (at least as long as the interface does not require installing a custom driver); and if you don't insist on 6.3mm, possibly some others, like the Zoom U-24. Apps like Keystage, Camelot Pro, AUM, should allow you to send the output of any of their hosted apps to any of the outputs (and will also allow your single controller to send MIDI to multiple apps, wither split or layered with each other). To use the interface with your (obviously plugkey-compatible) iOS device, use Apple's Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter (which also allows you to keep the charger plugged in).

[The Piano Man]

1 hour ago, AnotherScott said:

I'm not sure of this, but I think any USB audio interface with multiple 6.3mm outs would work (at least as long as the interface does not require installing a custom driver); and if you don't insist on 6.3mm, possibly some others, like the Zoom U-24. Apps like Keystage, Camelot Pro, AUM, should allow you to send the output of any of their hosted apps to any of the outputs (and will also allow your single controller to send MIDI to multiple apps, wither split or layered with each other). To use the interface with your (obviously plugkey-compatible) iOS device, use Apple's Lightning to USB 3 Camera Adapter (which also allows you to keep the charger plugged in).

Thanks. I’m guessing something like a Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 might do the trick then. It has four 6.3mm outputs on the back 

 

thanks again 

[Ibarch]

Worth finding an interface with a USB hub port too. The Arturia Minifuse is one example. 

[Baldwin Funster]

1 hour ago, The Piano Man said:

Thanks. I’m guessing something like a Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 might do the trick then. It has four 6.3mm outputs on the back 

 

thanks again 

It seems that the scarletts 4i4 and above are tricky to get working in ios. You have to select some settings while hooked up to a computer to get ios to work right. At least that's what a quick googling brought up.

[The Piano Man]

1 hour ago, Baldwin Funster said:

It seems that the scarletts 4i4 and above are tricky to get working in ios. You have to select some settings while hooked up to a computer to get ios to work right. At least that's what a quick googling brought up.

Ah, I see. Any other suggestions that might be good for IOS?

[Baldwin Funster]

1 minute ago, The Piano Man said:

Ah, I see. Any other suggestions that might be good for IOS?

Sorry, no suggestions. You are out on the cutting edge trying to get 4 assignable outputs. The closest I got to that was I tried to put 2 sebrent sound adapters in a powered hub and I think the whole thing just shut down. Maybe AUM would have seen them. I don't know, I didn't go any farther.