Lighten my Load - Keyboard speaking

[b3plyr]

Well, after a couple of gigs over Christmas I have decided I need to try to find a suitable lighter weight keyboard. I currently use a Nord Grand. Great keyboard, but heavy. I play primarily piano in a duo hence the Grand (46.1 Lbs). I'm considering a Nord Piano 5 88 (40.1 lbs), Nord Piano 5 73 (34.1 lbs). Not huge differences in weight, but a pound is a pound. And a 73 key is much easier to handle. I'm also looking at the Casio S3100 (25lbs). I've thought about the Kurzweil PC4, but am not sure about the keybed.

 

I know we have discussed lightening the rig multiple times on the forum but I'm hoping one of you that plays solo or in a duo has gone through this. My concerns are, as usual, sound quality and whether I could do with less than 88 keys. I would greatly appreciate your observations and suggestions.

 

Oh, forgot. All musical genres.

 

Thanks, Will

[ElmerJFudd]

We all feel your pain. Yes, the Nord Grand has its benefits, but carrying it is not one of them. Do you play predominantly piano? What other sounds do you need to be well represented on this lighter schlep board?

 

I personally wouldn"t do a Casio S3xxx, I don"t care for the slim action they"ve stuck in the Casio Sxxxx models at all for piano playing. The previous PX-5S/560 actions, to me, have better swing and control of dynamics and don"t suffer from low or no note triggered when playing close to the fall board. But that"s me, a few others have spoken up for these models when considering price point and size/weight.

 

Casio PX-5S, 24.47lbs

B stock or second hand Yamaha CP4, 38.4lbs.

Yamaha CP88, 41lbs

A Korg SV2-73, 37.92lbs

[AnotherScott]

whether I could do with less than 88 keys.

One person's answer (or a hundred people's answers) to the question of whether 73 keys is enough won't tell you whether it's enough for you, since there will always be people who say yes and people who say no, and only you can decide which camp you'll fall into. I'd suggest putting something like painter's tape over all but the 73 keys of your 88, and play the equivalent of a set or two of your material, and see how often and how severely the inability to get to one of those taped keys would irritate you. That will tell you more than 100 responses to your question here.

 

I play primarily piano in a duo hence the Grand (46.1 Lbs). I'm considering a Nord Piano 5 88 (40.1 lbs), Nord Piano 5 73 (34.1 lbs). Not huge differences in weight, but a pound is a pound. And a 73 key is much easier to handle.

Yeah, a pound is a pound, and 6 lbs is plenty noticeable. But also, yes, the overall size affects how easy it is to manage a given weight, and other things like the way it is balanced, and how the piano can be gripped. Another variable is, the lighter the board, the more comfortable I am using a lighter duty case, which also can save noticeable weight over a heavier duty case.

 

I'm also looking at the Casio S3100 (25lbs). I've thought about the Kurzweil PC4, but am not sure about the keybed.

Better/worse action can be a difficult variable, not only because it is subjective, but I guess related to that, different people are more bugged by different "flaws." I compared the PC4 action to the Casio PX5S action, and it's not an easy call, because each is better/worse than the other, in different aspects. The biggest knock on that Casio action has probably been the amount of bounce you can get on key return. That's supposed to have been largely addressed on the newer action of the model you're looking at, but some people complain about the shorter pivot point on the new models, while other people have no problem with that at all.

 

Anyway, if you want to stick with a more "premium" 88, I'd say leading alternatives to the Nord Piano's 40.1 lbs would include Yamaha CP88 (41 lbs), and maybe Kawai ES920 which I haven't played myself, at 37.5 lbs. Also, Dexibell has the S7 Pro (39.5 lbs) which has a graded version of the TP40 that's on the Nord Piano, and they have the S7 Pro M (34 lbs) which has the much maligned TP100, but I recently picked up their 73-key P3 which has that action, and for whatever reason, I find it quite enjoyable to play, though I've really disliked the TP100 in a few other boards. What's also interesting there is that it gets you what might be an above average 88 at the weight of the Nord 73. Along those lines, people seem to like the 32 lb Kawai ES520, too.

 

If you want to stay under 30 lbs besides Casio and Kurzweil (and Biggles mentioned the ES100 possibility), if you end up deciding that 73 keys will work for you, Yamaha has the CP73, which I didn't care for, but the new software update gives you more control over its velocity response, so maybe it would be okay. I also mentioned that Dexibell P3, and they have an updated 73, the S3 Pro, which is only 26 lbs.

[b3plyr]

Yes, predominately piano. I sometimes add some strings or bass. Thus, I do need a simple split capability. I already have the QSCs and they are great!

[ElmerJFudd]

The Kawai ES110"s action, to me, at its price point and weight is a leader in the sub $1k area.

 

Just keep in mind how far you"re jumping from the Nord Grand, especially on sub $1k boards. They aren"t going to sound and play like it. But you certainly may find something you can live with for the price and convenience.

[KuruPrionz]

Do you carry your gear or do you have a high quality dolly to roll it in?

 

That made a huge difference for me, highly recommended if you haven't gone there yet.

[TommyRude]

Is hammer action a must have? If not, then you can go MUCH lighter, with a plethora of choices.

 

I think you want hammer action. Have you tried the Casio you mentioned? I would definitely give that a play.

[ElmerJFudd]

Do you carry your gear or do you have a high quality dolly to roll it in?

 

That made a huge difference for me, highly recommended if you haven't gone there yet.

 

I agree entirely. A good dolly or hand truck makes all the difference. It can be even preferable to a good wheeled soft case, especially if you are bungee cording your PA monitor(s) and doing it in one trip in/out. The problem I run into is where to stow the case and dolly other than taking it back to the car.

[Old No7]

One person's answer (or a hundred people's answers) to the question of whether 73 keys is enough won't tell you whether it's enough for you, since there will always be people who say yes and people who say no, and only you can decide which camp you'll fall into. I'd suggest putting something like painter's tape over all but the 73 keys of your 88, and play the equivalent of a set or two of your material, and see how often and how severely the inability to get to one of those taped keys would irritate you. That will tell you more than 100 responses to your question here.

That is a terrific idea Scott -- I'm sure others would benefit from that test as well.

 

I've seen numerous helpful posts by you on various forums -- but I think that's one of your best yet.

 

Old No7

[LarsHarner]

I do realize not everyone likes the GHS action, but the Yamaha P125 works for me when I go out as it weighs 25 pounds. I feel as though this particular model has a good sound and decent built in speakers as well as 1/4" outs

[b3plyr]

One person's answer (or a hundred people's answers) to the question of whether 73 keys is enough won't tell you whether it's enough for you, since there will always be people who say yes and people who say no, and only you can decide which camp you'll fall into. I'd suggest putting something like painter's tape over all but the 73 keys of your 88, and play the equivalent of a set or two of your material, and see how often and how severely the inability to get to one of those taped keys would irritate you. That will tell you more than 100 responses to your question here.

That is a terrific idea Scott -- I'm sure others would benefit from that test as well.

 

I've seen numerous helpful posts by you on various forums -- but I think that's one of your best yet.

 

Old No7

 

I agree - a great idea. In truth, I tried it but still can't make up my mind. However, I did not try a complete set or two - I will, thanks Scott. I fear the time I go to grab the low end and nothing is there.

[b3plyr]

Is hammer action a must have? If not, then you can go MUCH lighter, with a plethora of choices.

 

I think you want hammer action. Have you tried the Casio you mentioned? I would definitely give that a play.

 

You are correct. Hammer action is essential as I am primarily (now) piano centric.

[ewall08530]

As someone who is older and gigging often, one of my top criteria for choosing gear is weight. Having owned and gigged a Yamaha P-125, Casio PX5S, Casio PX S3000, Roland RD88 and a Kawai ES 520 I think the Kawai comes closest to the quality of the action and piano sound you have in your Nord Grand while weighing in at 32lbs vs 46lb for the Nord Grand.

For me the Kawai is the most fun to play and makes me feel closest to a genuine piano experience. I don"t take it on as many gigs as the Roland RD88 because the footprint is larger than my other boards but it"s really a similar size as the Nord Grand but 14lbs lighter. and I find it easy to move.

[Coker]

B stock or second hand Yamaha CP4, 38.4lbs.

Yamaha CP88, 41lbs

 

When I was considering the Nord Grand, I picked it off its stand and walked maybe 10 feet with it in GC showroom. It wasn't in its case of course which adds extra weight but I thought it felt pretty manageable for its listed weight.

 

The two quoted Yamahas I own now, with a Soundwear bag, and they're both very doable for me at age 68.

 

I will say though, the NG is easier to grasp then the slick surface of the CP88. It also has a convenient ledge to grip that gave me more a feeling of stability in my arms then the CP88. The CP88 sound and action is a notch up from the NG imo.

 

An aside, maybe Nord will look into into this new wood Fatar action the NG2.

B stock or second hand Yamaha CP4, 38.4lbs.

Yamaha CP88, 41lbs

 

When I was considering the Nord Grand, I picked it off its stand and walked maybe 10 feet with it in GC showroom. It wasn't in its case of course which adds extra weight but I thought it felt pretty manageable for its listed weight.

 

The two quoted Yamahas I own now, with a Soundwear bag, and they're both very doable for me at age 68.

 

I will say though, the NG is easier to grasp then the slick surface of the CP88. It also has a convenient ledge to grip that gave me more a feeling of stability in my arms then the CP88. The CP88 sound and action is a notch up from the NG imo.

 

An aside, maybe Nord will look into into this new wood Fatar action the NG2.

 

A little OT, but regarding the somewhat slick edges on the CP88, I was getting a little nervous about the same issue with my YC88. I bought a package of self-adhesive textured pads, almost like coarse sandpaper and about 3x5 inches. I applied two to the bottom edge of the YC88, one for each hand where I hold the keyboard when moving it from case to stand. What a difference!

[Adan]

The Yamaha 73-key P121 wins the hammer action portability contest at 22 lbs. I'm fine with the Yamaha sounds, but prefer the inexpensive Kawai's over Yamaha's for the key action. That's subjective of course, but from what I can tell a lot of piano players lean the same way. For me, anything under 30 lbs is portable enough.

 

The Nord Piano 5 73 ($3300) looks interesting but, if I'm only playing acoustic piano sounds, then no way is it 4 times better than the Kawai ES110 ($700).

 

The ES110 is several years old so you have to wonder if a new version is in the pipeline.

[Biggles]

If you can live with the GHS action nothing comes close to the Yamaha P121 with its 73 keys and light weight.

 

I had one for a couple of years and liked it.

 

Wanted extra sounds, no problem, plug in an IPad and you have whatever you want in a very lightweight package

 

Good luck deciding

[cphollis]

Being the odd duck here, I would gravitate towards the Nord P5 73, as it would appeal to me greatly for a piano-centric gig. I like the action for what it is -- portable yet sufficiently satisfying. The way that I get comfortable on 73-key pianos is that I stop playing 88 key versions. You can do some very interesting things with two piano engines, similar to what you can do on a Stage in that regard. Ditto for two sample engines for backing pads, etc.

 

Being able to "flavor" an otherwise straightforward piano sound turns out to be quite useful for me. As you know, Nord has many piano sounds to work with, so it ends up being an extensive palette. E.g. pitch a different piano sound an octave up or down and put it softly in the background -- there's now a dimensionality that can be very appealing.

 

I have played both the P121 and ES110. They are great keyboards, and excellent value for money. That being said, if it were me, I'd be sorely tempted to step up. Especially playing through a pair of K8.2s If I get back into smaller acoustic gigs, it'd be the P5 73 for me, and the Nord Grand would stay at home, which I think is sort of what it was designed for.

[Al Quinn]

I haven't played all of the keyboards being discussed but I can weigh in on those I've played:

- CP4: I've had one for several years, have used in on many gigs, and love it.

- Casio PX-S3000: I have one and the slim form factor is great, the action is good enough for ensemble playing but I wouldn't want to play a solo piano gig on it. The key force required varies too much as a function of distance from the fall board which is distracting / frustrating for nuanced playing.

- P121: I don't have one but my brother does and I've played it quite a bit. It's a pleasure to play. I could happily do a solo piano gig with it. The P125 has the same action and sound with more keys. A great value for the price.

- E110: Played one in a store and like it a lot. As I recall the action was lighter than the Yamahas which for some folks can be a plus. I believe I would enjoy playing it on a solo piano gig.

- CP88: played one at GC and loved it.

 

The Numa X Piano 73-key has my attention but I haven't played one yet. I like how the AP sounds on the YouTube demos.

 

I haven't played a Nord Grand but I had a Stage 2 HA88. Although it sounded really good, I was distracted by the finger to ear connection and ended up selling it after a few years. OTOH, there are plenty of folks who love it.

[Doug Robinson]

The Casio px5s changed my gigging life. Good sounds, good action, 24 lbs.

[Pianoman JC]

I also use a CP4 for gigs and am very happy with it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JC

[Outkaster]

Go heavy or go home.

[Josh Paxton]

In in a similar boat to the OP in that a couple months ago I brought my Grandstage 88 to what I'm fairly sure will be my last gig with it. Not that I've stopped liking it per se; I've just decided that the advantages it offers over more lightweight options are no longer worth the extra weight and bulk it entails.

 

As an alternative, I'm a huge fan of the Casio PX-S3000. Actually, if I were to get one now I'd get the 1000, because the only difference is a bunch of extra sounds that I literally never use. But as a lightweight, 88-key, hammer-action, AP-centric board, it's my favorite one I've ever played. I haven't played the Kawaii mentioned above, but I think I've tried all the others.

[stoken6]

I'll throw in the Roland RD88 at just under 30lb for 88 keys.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[Lyon]

I'd suggest putting something like painter's tape over all but the 73 keys of your 88, and play the equivalent of a set or two of your material, and see how often and how severely the inability to get to one of those taped keys would irritate you.

 

+1 for that. I did the same with some ribbon when trying to decide on 73 vs 61 keys (probably at your suggestion, AnotherScott!), and it made the decision easy. Trying out a bunch of both at a music store also helped, of course. :-)

 

+1 on the ES110 too, for a light and relatively inexpensive option. When I was looking at keyboards a couple of years ago, I stumbled across the ES110 pretty much by accident, and was amazed at how little it gave up to more expensive keyboards in terms of touch and basic sounds. You get more when you pay more, but the relationship in this case is not linear.

[jeffincltnc]

Lots of good reviews for Kawai here and I would just like to say it"s been worth it going up to the Kawai ES920 for me. Same RHIII action as the Nord Grand and only about 37-38 pounds in weight which includes built in speakers. The sounds are good and have a deep editor. If you like the woodier Kawai jazz sound this is a nice one. Also a surprisingly good Rhodes which I had very little expectation to find.

 

I had a very long wait time of like 6 months to get mine and I think they are frozen in production for the ES920 until July perhaps due to supply chain problems. If you find one I would not hesitate to get it.

 

The ES920 has a loyal following on the piano forum which caters to piano players who gig on slabs but not necessarily full band and multi tier stack instrument rigs.

[HammondDave]

I ordered my Numa Piano X73 a few months ago from Sweetwater. Latest ETA is mid February. Hard to beat that price for 25lbs, a great OS, and such great sounds. Check out the Nord Piano vs Numa Piano X Shootout on the Numa thread.

[AnotherScott]

Ah yes, I forgot the RD88 on my list, another one I haven't played myself.

 

And yes, Kawais often have nice EP sounds, too. With a little tweaking, I really liked the EPs on the MP7. Even the ES100 EPs were nice except for not being able to defeat the effects, which I believe they addressed in the ES110 (which I haven't played).

[rickzjamm]

Hammer action & piano sound is all subjective of course but for gigs that mainly focus on APs / EPs the Yamaha YC88 has very good action & the CFX is great especially when you are in a band situation. Also has "other" sounds that aren't great but enough to get through the gig.

Weight is 40 lbs, light enough yet full 88 to bring to gigs... IMHO

[b3plyr]

Go heavy or go home.

 

Good advice, but I'm not sure I will take it! Thanks!

[b3plyr]

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions/advice. I think most of you know I wasn't asking you to select a keyboard for me- simply to share your experiences and expertise. You delivered several times over!