New Studiologic Numa X Piano

[RandyFF]

11 hours ago, kenheeter said:

Randy, I have wondered about most of the things you asked about but you are much more articulate than I am so I'm quite happy to have you ask the excellent questions and to read Gianni's thoughtful replies. Great work!

Thanks.  I spent some time formulating it so it was as clear as I could make it.  Hard to believe how generous and quick he is with his replies!  

 

It sounds like they released the keyboard knowing they’d probably follow up with a lot of improvements they couldn’t manage right out of the gate.  I can only imagine, at the price point and with all its great features, keybed and sounds, that its been a big hit for them, so I imagine this board has quite a few years of improvement life on it.  

 

I think with the Compact they were trying to see how much of a keyboard they could make for as cheap as possible, which they succeeded with and apparentlycontinue to develop?  And this is more their ‘for real’ board with a metal body and upgraded everything.  Many companies do a trickle down starting with their most expensive products, this seems to be the opposite, though this is pure speculation, I’m not familiar with their organs for example.

 

I am surprised though that this board doesn’t make more accommodation for organ, it’s mostly samples with baked in vibrato etc.  I’m guessing that as a company they know how many extra buttons and sliders it takes to have an organ interface, so instead they adopted what they learned from their controller boards and made it very possible to use an external sound source for organs, keeping their UI simple.

 

I always wonder about that- how much of previous technology actually is used and makes it way into other boards?  Like with Yamaha, the giant, they have separate divisions, I’ll bet a lot of good technology is never used because it came from another division.  But with a small company like SL, I imagine there’s plenty of reuse.

 

But being a lowly end user without a lot of computer background, I have little idea what it takes to make the kinds of changes that I suggested, even with re-use of previous technology.

[RandyFF]

Can someone tell if I've encountered a bug or am just not doing it right?

 

I'm attempting to use the Numa Manager to change the name of Programs on my Win10 laptop.  Their directions on the page where you can download Numa Manager describes it as selecting LIBRARY-EDIT at the top of the page, hitting the pen symbol to the right of the name, changing the name and then OKing it. 

 

I've done all that but after hitting the Pen symbol it doesn't allow me change the name, it takes me straight to the dialog box asking me to OK or cancel the new name.   

[BluesB3]

I'm likely gigging again with a 5 piece band after an 8 year layoff.  Blues, roadhouse country, and classic rock.

 

 I'm a pretty mediocre piano player with small fingers but even banging triplets on the Electro isn't cutting it.

I'm keeping my Electro2-61 for Hammond but I'm looking for a 73/76 board with a decent piano but not necessarily "realistic" action. For factory patches, all I really care about are 1 or 2 AP grand patches that hold up in a barroom mix, upright honky tonk (not tack), muscle shoals Wurly, and a couple of non "smooth jazz" Rhodes. Budget approx $1000-1500. Weight approx 20-30#.

 

Would the Numa GT 73 be a good fit for me??

[kenheeter]

Numa X 73 is an excellent choice.  Highly recommended.

[b3plyr]

2 hours ago, BluesB3 said:

I'm likely gigging again with a 5 piece band after an 8 year layoff.  Blues, roadhouse country, and classic rock

 

Would the Numa GT 73 be a good fit for me??

I've got 2 Numa - you will not be disappointed. Great boards!

[AnotherScott]

2 hours ago, BluesB3 said:

the Electro isn't cutting it.

I'm keeping my Electro2-61 for Hammond but I'm looking for a 73/76 board with a decent piano but not necessarily "realistic" action. For factory patches, all I really care about are 1 or 2 AP grand patches that hold up in a barroom mix, upright honky tonk (not tack), muscle shoals Wurly, and a couple of non "smooth jazz" Rhodes. Budget approx $1000-1500. Weight approx 20-30#.

 

Before buying anything, it may be worth loading some alternate pianos/EPs into the Electro 2. Although that model is not compatible with the current piano libraries, I think a lot of peple don't know that Nord did come out with alternate pianos/EPs for that model, they're at https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-electro-2/grand-pianos and https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-electro-2/electric-pianos - still not anything like today's state of the art, but worth trying at the price (free). 

 

If you wanted a non-hammer action 73/76 board with well-playable piano/EP in your price and weight range, you might see if you can find a Vox Continental 73 or Kurzweil SP6-7, both of which are in the "recently discontinued" category. I'm not sure about their upright honky tonk options, though. Often, honky tonk patches are regular pianos through a chorus.

[BluesB3]

Playing piano on the Electro's waterfall keys doesn't bother me per se. I'm not as picky as a real pianist about actions, but the lack of (for a better term) "feedback" or weight from the keybed does. Even though the Pratt-Read on my Wurlie is a little (!) uneven, it does feel pianistic.

[bjosko]

New update 2.2 released 

 

https://www.studiologic-music.com/blog/2023-10-04_numaxpiano22/

[CyberGene]

Just got an email about the update. Nice one from Studiologic! I remember Gianni also mentioned that they may fix the faulty damper pedal response of the electric pianos when used with the Roland DP-10 pedal in one of the continuous modes. That would make me really happy because the current implementation prevents me from using the DP-10 in continuous mode and as a result it acts as a binary switch which leads to the infamous Numa X issue with loud machine-gun damper noises on acoustic pianos, which in turn is even more annoying because those noises are always on whenever you add a piano part (hopefully in a next update they will allow for globally configuring and storing such settings). 

[CyberGene]

I installed the update and I can't really comment on the new features, such as e.g. improved electric piano modeling, because the e-pianos were already excellent enough for me and is what I love most about the Numa X; or the per-key touch calibration because I haven't noticed any irregularities on mine, however I can confirm they fixed something I reported to them previously: inconsistent behavior with the Roland DP-10 half-pedal when used in continuous mode. Previously the pedal would work as a half-pedal but different settings were required for acoustic pianos (Continuous A mode) and electric pianos (Continuous B mode). And that would make it unusable if you didn't want to switch between A and B anytime you switch sounds. Glad to confirm now you can use the Continuous A mode both for acoustic and electric pianos.

[brenner13]

Ooh. We sure could use that velocity mapping per key on the Numa 2/2X…

[Adan]

Installed 2.2.  Don't have much time to explore it now, off to a gig in a few minutes, but based on a quick listen the rhodes does sound more detailed, more responsive, and "dirtier" (in a good way).  I'm just comparing what it sounds like now to what I remember it sounded like before, so for all I know there's a placebo effect at work.  But I don't think so, this seems to be a real upgrade.

 

Hope they do the same for the Wurly, though there's nothing wrong with it now.

 

Haven't tried the per key velocity mapping yet.

[BluesB3]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:01 PM, AnotherScott said:

 

Before buying anything, it may be worth loading some alternate pianos/EPs into the Electro 2. Although that model is not compatible with the current piano libraries, I think a lot of peple don't know that Nord did come out with alternate pianos/EPs for that model, they're at https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-electro-2/grand-pianos and https://www.nordkeyboards.com/sound-libraries/nord-electro-2/electric-pianos - still not anything like today's state of the art, but worth trying at the price (free). 

 

If you wanted a non-hammer action 73/76 board with well-playable piano/EP in your price and weight range, you might see if you can find a Vox Continental 73 or Kurzweil SP6-7, both of which are in the "recently discontinued" category. I'm not sure about their upright honky tonk options, though. Often, honky tonk patches are regular pianos through a chorus.

I think I have the "latest" pianos for the Electro 2. When I said honky tonk, I just meant an upright that would cut through a mix. Not really anything detuned or chorused.

[CyberGene]

I asked Gianni if their PCM engine can provide monophonic synth sounds with portamento. He replied it’s possible and is on their wish-list but can’t say if and when they will implement it. 

[HammondDave]

I love this update!  I had no idea the rotary effect sounded this good.  And that Rhodes… Awesome!  Leave it to the Italians to make a better mousetrap. Bravo tutti, Gianni!

[AnotherScott]

9 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

I love this update!  I had no idea the rotary effect sounded this good. 

 

 

The rotary effect in the Numa Organ 2 is one of my favorite sims anywhere. For rotary alone (not counting overdrive), I preferred it to the Vent.

[BluesB3]

Ugh! I just listened to the factory demo of the Wurly 200 on SL's website. It was so effected I couldn't tell much about it other than I hated it.

 

I need a robust Muscle Shoals type Wurly sound. Spooner, not Supertramp. Has there been an update? Does it sound realistic with all the efx turned off? Is there a downloadable source for a better sound? I'm close to pulling the trigger on the X 73 but this is a dealbreaker.

[RandyFF]

Sorry, am away from my board.  iPad or laptop assist?  With the USB interface built-in it's a slam dunk to use something like Neo Soul Keys on iPad to grab tasty EPs.

 

Keep in mind that the software version of these sounds are not 100% the same as the sounds built into the board, the boards baked in sounds are more complex and use slightly different means to achieve the same sounds.  AND, you can adjust the amount of fx on the software version.

[BluesB3]

Thanks Randy but I am looking for a downloadable solution to the Numa X. I don't do Ipad or laptops. Apparently they are really handy but I'm not conversant with VST's.

 

Is there a source for sounds that I could download to an internal memory and be done with?

[Noah DC]

They did a firmware update (2.1) that significantly improved the wurly. It’s hard to tell if that video you posted features the old version or the new, but you can find a video with a bit of the update here:

 

https://www.studiologic-music.com/blog/2023-02-13_numaxpiano21/

[SLHQC]

On 10/25/2023 at 4:56 AM, Noah DC said:

They did a firmware update (2.1) that significantly improved the wurly. It’s hard to tell if that video you posted features the old version or the new, but you can find a video with a bit of the update here:

 

https://www.studiologic-music.com/blog/2023-02-13_numaxpiano21/

Hi all, 

 

Long-time listener, first-time caller.

 

The Wurly has improved a little with the latest update (2.2) but still needs work in my opinion. As do most of the acoustic pianos - particularly their attack characteristics. For me the Vintage Grand is the best all-rounder which can be meaningfully tweaked with use of the built-in parameters. Most of the other acoustic pianos from the default set are sub-par and can't really be salvaged with tweaking, with the exception of the upright, which I love. The newer downloadable acoustics are quite good, if a little bit niche in their usefulness (dialing up the tone of the felt piano makes for a lovely, expressive sound).

 

The Rhodes' have improved greatly - well done Studiologic!

 

Here's hoping the good folk at Studiologic keep rolling out the improvements and new piano tones. Would be great to be able to adjust the note-off level of the EP's, for example. (I think Crumar has the EP market stitched up when it comes to realism, dynamics and tweakability).

 

In any case I've personally had excellent support from Gianni, including a warranty replacement part which was handled superbly and successfully.

 

GT model here.

[RandyFF]

On 10/26/2023 at 10:32 PM, SLHQC said:

Hi all, 

 

Long-time listener, first-time caller.

 

The Wurly has improved a little with the latest update (2.2) but still needs work in my opinion. As do most of the acoustic pianos - particularly their attack characteristics. For me the Vintage Grand is the best all-rounder which can be meaningfully tweaked with use of the built-in parameters. Most of the other acoustic pianos from the default set are sub-par and can't really be salvaged with tweaking, with the exception of the upright, which I love. The newer downloadable acoustics are quite good, if a little bit niche in their usefulness (dialing up the tone of the felt piano makes for a lovely, expressive sound).

 

The Rhodes' have improved greatly - well done Studiologic!

 

Here's hoping the good folk at Studiologic keep rolling out the improvements and new piano tones. Would be great to be able to adjust the note-off level of the EP's, for example. (I think Crumar has the EP market stitched up when it comes to realism, dynamics and tweakability).

 

In any case I've personally had excellent support from Gianni, including a warranty replacement part which was handled superbly and successfully.

 

GT model here.

Hey, welcome to the forum!

 

How do you like the USA Grand?  So far that has been my go-to all rounder, sounds good to me up and down the keyboard. Please elaborate by what you mean about the attack characteristics of the pianos needing work. Apparently SL is working on including more editing parameters, so time will tell. 

 

The EPs are my favorite sounds on the board, would love to try out the Crumar EPs.  Overall I'm enjoying the sounds- they're not the best I've heard, but in pretty much every category of sound I enjoy playing with the onboard sounds, haven't busted out my iPad yet.

 

In general, I'm happier with this board than any of the handful I've had in the last 25 years.  The combo of it being lightweight, fast and intuitive to create Programs, sounds I like, a keybed I enjoy, it all adds up to this being a board that feels like it was made for a player like myself.  So much so that I get very 'pianistic', dramatic and expressive with it, to the point where I will probably sell this one and get the X88!  I need those extra keys!

 

Your review, esp since you've got the GT, would be much appreciated!  From what I've read the keybed sounds lovely, would probably be one of those fast and easily expressive beds.  I'd be very curious to know how much thunk there is from unamplified playing.  I'm good/neutral on the keybed of the X 73, but the unamplified sound is noticeable, and at times, from going from one home to another, it became annoying, but within a day or so it went back to being noticeable but not objectionable.

[SLHQC]

I like the lower and higher registers of the USA grand, however, to my ears, the attack in the middle few octaves imparts a kind of plasticky sound that has a "phasey" decay and is detached from the overall tone of the sample. It's hard to explain....The overall tone seems ramp down too suddenly before the sustain portion of the note/s, which feels unnatural. I observe this to varying extents with others including German, Italian, Japan, Aus, Blu, pop and rock as well.

 

Vintage, taperec, upright etc. don't exhibit this behaviour and seem more authentic and expressive to me.

 

Having said all that, I acknowledge that different amplification has an impact on this phenomenon. It is more apparent using headphones than with powered speakers.

 

Interestingly, the *equivalent* sound on the numa player has a better attack/decay character and feels more expressive than the USA grand patch on the X piano... As does the electric grand patch... Love the numa player electric grand, don't love the ones in the X piano. 

 

The GT action is really nice and feels well made. It is very quiet - I've had a few Kawais and a Roland RD-800 and the GT is way quieter than those. The keys also have a nice texture and the build quality and feel really is premium. I don't notice any mechanical noise of the keybed when playing. Virtually no thunk at all. The keys also do not wiggle from side to side and have no key bounce as far as I can tell. Interestingly, the action seems more suited to some internal sounds than others in terms of "connection". For some reason it's easier to play faster, more complex pieces with some samples than others (notwithstanding my mediocre abilities). 

 

I also really liked the feel of the tp110 action when I tried it. I feel like it was a bit lighter, very expressive and suited to the EP's especially. I was all set to get the non GT version but sprung for the GT because I felt like the action needed to be an "upgrade" from the Roland. Ridiculous, I know... could have saved a lot of money and my back and still been very happy, I'm sure. The GT is heavy!

 

 

 

 

[RandyFF]

15 hours ago, SLHQC said:

The GT action is really nice and feels well made. It is very quiet - I've had a few Kawais and a Roland RD-800 and the GT is way quieter than those. The keys also have a nice texture and the build quality and feel really is premium. I don't notice any mechanical noise of the keybed when playing. Virtually no thunk at all. The keys also do not wiggle from side to side and have no key bounce as far as I can tell. Interestingly, the action seems more suited to some internal sounds than others in terms of "connection". For some reason it's easier to play faster, more complex pieces with some samples than others (notwithstanding my mediocre abilities). 

 

I also really liked the feel of the tp110 action when I tried it. I feel like it was a bit lighter, very expressive and suited to the EP's especially. I was all set to get the non GT version but sprung for the GT because I felt like the action needed to be an "upgrade" from the Roland. Ridiculous, I know... could have saved a lot of money and my back and still been very happy, I'm sure. The GT is heavy!

Thanks for the considered reply!  I didn't know the GT was quiet- what a contrast to the tp110, I've never had such a noisy action.

 

For myself I need to be able to schleep my boards, so the GT was out of the question.  But as I've read many reviews, it sounds like it could possibly be my dream keybed: quick, extremely expressive dynamics, much control even at PPP, an action you can fly on- that's the impression I get having never played one.  If I could afford a stay-at-home board, this is one I'd probably get.

 

Not sure how tuned into the action you are- some folks can get on with just about anything.  My reaction when reading your review was, hold on, without a tp110 action to compare side by side you might possibly not realize how good you've got it.  But when I read so many people saying it's as good or better than any other DP they've played, esp for pianos, I'm inclined to give it consideration.  

 

If you do decide to sell it and go for the non-GT Numa Pianos, I imagine that it'd sell at a good price given its stellar reputation.   

 

For myself, I barely notice the tp110.  I feel inspired to play this board, have really been enjoying it, which includes of course the overall quality of sounds, but I don't notice it per se, which I suppose is a good thing, like having a pair of shoes that fit comfortably but that you stop noticing because they feel right.  By contrast, my all time favorite keybed is on the Kawai ES110/120/520.  Everything that describes the GT action is what I experienced with it, and I was super aware that I was flying because of the keybed, it did not go unnoticed!

 

Thanks for your attempt to describe the problems you hear with the pianos.  It's such a tricky thing, putting words to keybed actions and the sounds!

 

 

 

0

[Kentkeys]

Has anyone who has installed the 2.2 update had any problems? I have the GT model but haven’t updated  it yet, partly because of a comment on a Studiologic YouTube video that suggests that the update introduces several bugs including (if I have understood the comment correctly):

(1) A bug in the setup menu display that shows a Pedal 1 type the same as Pedal 3

(2)  a worse low-end balance for for the Mk 1 EP which makes the softest layer disappear

(3) a random unnatural noise in lower range notes

 

The commenter also says they have monitored the velocity (on the 88-note version) and found that the lowest note-off velocity for white notes is 14 and for the black notes it is 11, no matter how gently you play the keys. (I’m not sure whether this would have much of an effect, in practice.)

 

If you want to see the full comment, it’s with this video: 

 

 

[voxpops]

3 hours ago, Kentkeys said:

Has anyone who has installed the 2.2 update had any problems? I have the GT model but haven’t updated  it yet, partly because of a comment on a Studiologic YouTube video that suggests that the update introduces several bugs including (if I have understood the comment correctly):

(1) A bug in the setup menu display that shows a Pedal 1 type the same as Pedal 3

(2)  a worse low-end balance for for the Mk 1 EP which makes the softest layer disappear

(3) a random unnatural noise in lower range notes

 

The commenter also says they have monitored the velocity (on the 88-note version) and found that the lowest note-off velocity for white notes is 14 and for the black notes it is 11, no matter how gently you play the keys. (I’m not sure whether this would have much of an effect, in practice.)

 

I just received my new Numa X Piano 73 today. I immediately updated the firmware to 2.2.0. Within a couple of minutes I noticed the random noises. To be honest, I was a bit disappointed as it should have been picked up pretty easily during testing. I haven't studied the setup menu yet so haven't seen the pedal anomaly. As for the Mk 1 softest layer, I only have an earlier video to compare mine to, but did notice that the quiet "thunk" of tine harmonics wasn't apparent in my version. I would assume that these issues will be addressed soon as the problem of random noises makes the piano unusable for performances.

 

Having only had a short time to play around with it my conclusions about the piano are very tentative. However (firmware issues aside), I concur with those who have praised the overall tone and response of the Rhodes iterations. They have a fullness and richness to them and are very enjoyable to play. The "Wurly" variations are not quite to the same standard in my opinion, and also the random noises were very apparent when playing the Wurly, but otherwise they are quite usable. 

 

As for the APs, I haven't really found one that wows me yet. Someone described them as all having a kind of "tang." I know what he means, and also noticed the rather swift initial decay to most of them. I haven't tried to tweak them yet, so maybe they'll grow on me. The other sounds seem like a mixed bag; effects seem to be of good quality.

 

I found the keys a bit slippery, but maybe they're just very new. For a lightweight action it responds quite well. All told it seems like it could be a useful board - and is very easy to manhandle. The YC73 I had for a few days (it was faulty, so I returned it) was much more difficult to grasp due to rounded edges.

 

The jury's out at the moment, but it will be interesting to get better acquainted with it.

 

*Does anyone know if there's a way to download FW 2.1 as it doesn't seem to be available on the Studiologic site? (I assume the firmware can be downgraded from 2.2. to 2.1 via the Numa Manager.)*

[Noah DC]

In case it’s helpful as you start tweaking, this guy included in the description section of his YouTube review the settings he uses for the vintage grand, which he claims is a step above the other built-in acoustic piano models. The rest of the review is a bit strange and hard to follow, but I’ve kept these settings and now use the vintage grand a lot more than I otherwise would have. I also like the Forster 1914 downloaded piano for softer/solo stuff. 

[voxpops]

2 minutes ago, Noah DC said:

In case it’s helpful as you start tweaking, this guy included in the description section of his YouTube review the settings he uses for the vintage grand, which is claims is a step above the other built-in acoustic piano models. The rest of the review is a bit strange and hard to follow, but I’ve kept these settings and now use the vintage grand a lot more than I otherwise would have. I also like the Forster 1914 downloaded piano for softer/solo stuff. 

Thanks for that! I'd seen the video previously but hadn't picked up on the settings in the description. I'll definitely give those a go as I did like the Vintage Grand more than most of the others. I've loaded all the additional pianos, but have only played a few notes with each so far.

[SLHQC]

I've observed the glitch with the pedal 1 setting in the menu. This also has the effect of the damper pedal "sticking" randomly. I've worked around it by using the pedal 3 input. I've just about given up on the triple pedal supplied with the GT, as it randomly does this wierd re-triggering that makes it unusable. Using the Roland dp-10 instead.

 

I haven't observed the other two issues pointed out by KentKeys above. In my experience the EP's have improved markedly across the board. The lower registers were way too boomy before. Much more balanced now.

 

"Tang" is a good word to describe the attack envelope of many of the ap's, voxpop. The vintage grand and upright don't exhibit this to my ears, and it's less obvious with the taperec sound as well. As such I find these much more enjoyable to play than the others.

 

I wouldn't be concerned about the lowest note-off velocity being higher than zero. Perhaps it's by design to mimic the feel of a real piano? 

[voxpops]

7 hours ago, SLHQC said:

I've observed the glitch with the pedal 1 setting in the menu. This also has the effect of the damper pedal "sticking" randomly. I've worked around it by using the pedal 3 input. I've just about given up on the triple pedal supplied with the GT, as it randomly does this wierd re-triggering that makes it unusable. Using the Roland dp-10 instead.

 

I haven't observed the other two issues pointed out by KentKeys above. In my experience the EP's have improved markedly across the board. The lower registers were way too boomy before. Much more balanced now.

 

"Tang" is a good word to describe the attack envelope of many of the ap's, voxpop. The vintage grand and upright don't exhibit this to my ears, and it's less obvious with the taperec sound as well. As such I find these much more enjoyable to play than the others.

 

I wouldn't be concerned about the lowest note-off velocity being higher than zero. Perhaps it's by design to mimic the feel of a real piano? 

 

What you said with regard to the pedal "sticking" may be the cause of my random noises, as it sounded a bit like notes either being repeated or sounding on their own when the pedal was depressed. I will give input 3 a go, and I have a DP-10 that I can try as well.

 

Thanks for the tip re the taperec piano.