New Studiologic Numa X Piano

[voxpops]

Quick update. It's early days, but it seems that swapping the supplied pedal to input 3 has put a stop to the random noises (which it appears, in my case, were notes being randomly triggered/repeated). I also did a quick test of Fausto Ferreira's settings for the Vintage Piano and can confirm that there is a lot of potential there. The next issue I have is to work on the best way to amplify it, as it would seem that, beyond headphones (which sit well with it), it needs some tweaking to get the best out of it.

[SLHQC]

14 hours ago, voxpops said:

Quick update. It's early days, but it seems that swapping the supplied pedal to input 3 has put a stop to the random noises (which it appears, in my case, were notes being randomly triggered/repeated). I also did a quick test of Fausto Ferreira's settings for the Vintage Piano and can confirm that there is a lot of potential there. The next issue I have is to work on the best way to amplify it, as it would seem that, beyond headphones (which sit well with it), it needs some tweaking to get the best out of it.

I've had no issues since swapping to input 3 several days ago so you should be right. I'm sure Studiologic will sort the glitch out in a future update. Gianni Giudici is an absolute champion who is very switched on and responsive to user feedback - those negative comments on that youtube video linked a few posts up are way off the mark. I have had nothing but positive interactions with Gianni, Studiologic and my local distributor, which have resulted in tangible improvements to the product.

 

As for the Vintage piano, it really is versatile in the sense that adjusting the tone setting, even fairly aggressively, has a definite effect on altering the timbre of the instrument without degrading the sound. This is true for the upright and felt pianos also. Not so much on many of the other sounds. Doing the same on the German, Japan or US patches only makes them worse - to me they sound quite boxy and synthetic in the midrange and I haven't been able to tweak them to an acceptable level. To me the Japan Grand in particular should have a nice *Studio*/Yamaha C7 type rock sound that cuts through a mix while still sounding authentic. Having said that, tweaking the Vintage grand goes some way to achieving this - I wonder what instrument they sampled for that one...

 

I'd also love to know what the difference was in the sampling/modelling process between some of these piano patches and would like to think that Studiologic could apply the same fairy dust to some of the more lacklustre tones to bring them up to the same standard as the better ones. If it was up to me I definitely wouldn't have designated the German grand as the "Default" patch. It is far from the standout tone (in my humble opinion) and doesn't do this flawed, but great, keyboard justice.

[obxa]

On 11/6/2023 at 4:19 PM, voxpops said:

*Does anyone know if there's a way to download FW 2.1 as it doesn't seem to be available on the Studiologic site? (I assume the firmware can be downgraded from 2.2. to 2.1 via the Numa Manager.)*

 

X-PIANO_FW_UPDATE_2.1.1.bin

[voxpops]

26 minutes ago, obxa said:

 

X-PIANO_FW_UPDATE_2.1.1.bin 3.07 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks so much! It's great to have the option of reverting to a previous version in case of issues that can't be worked around - or simply to compare before and after.

[voxpops]

4 hours ago, SLHQC said:

I've had no issues since swapping to input 3 several days ago so you should be right. I'm sure Studiologic will sort the glitch out in a future update. ...

 

As for the Vintage piano, it really is versatile in the sense that adjusting the tone setting, even fairly aggressively, has a definite effect on altering the timbre of the instrument without degrading the sound. This is true for the upright and felt pianos also. Not so much on many of the other sounds. ...

 

I'd also love to know what the difference was in the sampling/modelling process between some of these piano patches and would like to think that Studiologic could apply the same fairy dust to some of the more lacklustre tones to bring them up to the same standard as the better ones. If it was up to me I definitely wouldn't have designated the German grand as the "Default" patch. It is far from the standout tone (in my humble opinion) and doesn't do this flawed, but great, keyboard justice.

 

Yes, my problems with random tones has disappeared since swapping the pedal input. One of the main reasons I decided to take a chance on the Numa X was the much-talked-about engagement of the designers. So often you're left on your own with flawed products that the manufacturer decides is no longer worth their time. I've also had previous Studiologic instruments (the originals of both the Numa Organ and Numa Piano) and they each had really good aspects, if slightly compromised by quirky firmware, so I knew what to expect.

 

So far, I find the APs a little frustrating in that they come close, but don't quite get there! Maybe it's partly down to attempting to compress so much information into such small packages. I agree with someone's suggestion that it might be better to have just one or two really standout pianos in place of so many compromised ones. However, the Vintage is undoubtedly worth spending time on.

 

I'm struggling a bit with some of the other sounds so far. I realize that coming from VA and analogue machines, sampled synths are not going to fare too well, but simply adding portamento - as Yamaha has done with the CK series - would go a long way to making those sounds more usable. However, with all that aside, there is massive potential with this board and the form factor of the 73, in particular, makes it so versatile. I really hope that Gianni and the rest of the team can maintain their focus on making this board the best it can be.

 

 

[obxa]

9 hours ago, voxpops said:

So far, I find the APs a little frustrating in that they come close, but don't quite get there! Maybe it's partly down to attempting to compress so much information into such small packages. I agree with someone's suggestion that it might be better to have just one or two really standout pianos in place of so many compromised ones. However, the Vintage is undoubtedly worth spending time on.

 We know opinions vary wildly around here.   Take this with a grain of salt.   After a year plus of using the Numa in the trenches in everything from pit band, concert, bar, solo, and trio/quartet gigs,    I feel somewhat qualified to offer some real-world experience.    First off, I love the company!!  Love my interactions with them. Love the feel of the keyboard (73).  Love the technology and mindset behind the UI- mostly....    More on that later.   As first generation Italian, had a sense of pride my entire rig (along with Crumar classic) was from the homeland.  I know that's silly. 

 

The Vintage piano is the only AP I could ever make work, but took a lot of caressing.  The others (Tape, Japanese, upright,  Forester) sounded great at home, but in context ( gigs) could never really get those to sit where I needed.    Especially on solo -small format.  Ironically, feel the Rhodes is the strongest thing in the Numa. I loved the power of having 4 sound layers, but have noticed sometimes it would tax the Numa - and it occasionally crashed a couple times in mid show. 

 

  I just finished up a small tour with a local guitar slinger (Chris Blackwell) who does fusion/smooth jazz  in venues around lower tri-state  Did a lot of programming:  Heavy Rhodes:  Phase,  Dynamo style, and  straight Tremolo.   Video (in stereo) below from couple weeks ago.   Obviously don't sit through the whole thing, it's two shows- same tunes) and last gig. of the tour....we were tired. 

 

Throughout all the shows the Numa was pretty bulletproof.  You can see me rebooting the Numa on one of the songs.     Comments from  FOH folks in smaller clubs: Rhodes & layers were great- but  pianos were brittle.  On bigger theater gigs,  got the opposite where they thought the AP's were great.  Because this was smaller venue,  gig below was  first time I didn't use IEMs in 15 years, and used a wedge- where in mono did notice some shrillness.   To be fair, any keyboard  AP in mono can do that.  The sound person on that gig, said AP weren't too pleasing in the stereo  house, but seemed ok here?         Playing aside, I'd be curious what others think of the overall sound. 

 

Chris does a bunch of Larry Carlton (Room 335, Josie) and a few vocal songs (Sara Smile). Those are on the video below.   For those tunes the Rhodes sat well, but felt it wasn't always distinct on full chords, but that's probably more my sloppy playing.  🤪

 

This weekend started a run with another local artist who does roots-rock in small clubs/theaters.  A YC73 fell into my lap at a great price.   Wanted to see if it would work better for my needs, especially with some of the exposed piano parts.    It did.   I've noticed many here are gravitating towards single keyboard rigs.  Dragged a Nord Electro around for the guitar guy, but would have loved to just had a single keyboard that could do organ.  That's no fault of the Numa, as it's not it's intent.    Getting tired of the two-tier thing, but I digress. 

 

This past Saturday, I was able to quickly dial in what I needed from the YC and the sound guy (old friend- who would tell me if it sucked..)  said it was super easy to mix and loved tones I was getting (piano, wurli, rhodes, clav). Had Crumar for main organ, but also used some YC organ layers under pianos like I usually do with my  Nord stage.

 

 In combat,  and with less than 24 hours to learn it- I found the YC UI to be a little more straightforward than the Numa.  After a year, I'm pretty fast on the Numa but still find some programming  and tweaks to be tedious.   The build quality of the Numa is exceptional, but the ac adaptor always makes me nervous.  ( bought 3 spares....)  Of course it costs almost $1200 less than the YC.   So it's not apples to apples. For the money,  the Numa is a heck of a value.   Just depends on your specific needs, and type of gig. Weekend warrior, wedding/corporate, tribute- within full band backdrop, all day long.    When it's more exposed:  solo, jazz, artist, pit -that's where I struggle with it. 

 

 I do love the responsiveness of the Numa VI piano for same reason I love Pianoteq.  But also sometimes have issues with Pianoteq in the studio (and live)  where a sampled piano sometimes just works better.  As a long time Yamaha user, I guess I'm also more accustomed to that sound for live use.  Where I would respond better to the sound more than the playability, if that makes any sense.   Really missed having the  Numa's additional layers, and the 4 channel on-board mixer. 

 

Just offering this little slice of my personal  experience.  I respect others opinions, and hope you'll do the same.   Haven't had a chance to try YC with the guitar guy- we go back out in late  December.

 

 

[voxpops]

12 hours ago, obxa said:

 We know opinions vary wildly around here.   Take this with a grain of salt.   After a year plus of using the Numa in the trenches in everything from pit band, concert, bar, solo, and trio/quartet gigs,    I feel somewhat qualified to offer some real-world experience.    First off, I love the company!!  Love my interactions with them. Love the feel of the keyboard (73).  Love the technology and mindset behind the UI- mostly....    More on that later.   As first generation Italian, had a sense of pride my entire rig (along with Crumar classic) was from the homeland.  I know that's silly. 

 

The Vintage piano is the only AP I could ever make work, but took a lot of caressing.  The others (Tape, Japanese, upright,  Forester) sounded great at home, but in context ( gigs) could never really get those to sit where I needed.    Especially on solo -small format.  Ironically, feel the Rhodes is the strongest thing in the Numa. I loved the power of having 4 sound layers, but have noticed sometimes it would tax the Numa - and it occasionally crashed a couple times in mid show. 

 

  I just finished up a small tour with a local guitar slinger (Chris Blackwell) who does fusion/smooth jazz  in venues around lower tri-state  Did a lot of programming:  Heavy Rhodes:  Phase,  Dynamo style, and  straight Tremolo.   Video (in stereo) below from couple weeks ago.   Obviously don't sit through the whole thing, it's two shows- same tunes) and last gig. of the tour....we were tired. 

 

Throughout all the shows the Numa was pretty bulletproof.  You can see me rebooting the Numa on one of the songs.     Comments from  FOH folks in smaller clubs: Rhodes & layers were great- but  pianos were brittle.  On bigger theater gigs,  got the opposite where they thought the AP's were great.  Because this was smaller venue,  gig below was  first time I didn't use IEMs in 15 years, and used a wedge- where in mono did notice some shrillness.   To be fair, any keyboard  AP in mono can do that.  The sound person on that gig, said AP weren't too pleasing in the stereo  house, but seemed ok here?         Playing aside, I'd be curious what others think of the overall sound. 

 

Chris does a bunch of Larry Carlton (Room 335, Josie) and a few vocal songs (Sara Smile). Those are on the video below.   For those tunes the Rhodes sat well, but felt it wasn't always distinct on full chords, but that's probably more my sloppy playing.  🤪

 

This weekend started a run with another local artist who does roots-rock in small clubs/theaters.  A YC73 fell into my lap at a great price.   Wanted to see if it would work better for my needs, especially with some of the exposed piano parts.    It did.   I've noticed many here are gravitating towards single keyboard rigs.  Dragged a Nord Electro around for the guitar guy, but would have loved to just had a single keyboard that could do organ.  That's no fault of the Numa, as it's not it's intent.    Getting tired of the two-tier thing, but I digress. 

 

This past Saturday, I was able to quickly dial in what I needed from the YC and the sound guy (old friend- who would tell me if it sucked..)  said it was super easy to mix and loved tones I was getting (piano, wurli, rhodes, clav). Had Crumar for main organ, but also used some YC organ layers under pianos like I usually do with my  Nord stage.

 

 In combat,  and with less than 24 hours to learn it- I found the YC UI to be a little more straightforward than the Numa.  After a year, I'm pretty fast on the Numa but still find some programming  and tweaks to be tedious.   The build quality of the Numa is exceptional, but the ac adaptor always makes me nervous.  ( bought 3 spares....)  Of course it costs almost $1200 less than the YC.   So it's not apples to apples. For the money,  the Numa is a heck of a value.   Just depends on your specific needs, and type of gig. Weekend warrior, wedding/corporate, tribute- within full band backdrop, all day long.    When it's more exposed:  solo, jazz, artist, pit -that's where I struggle with it. 

 

 I do love the responsiveness of the Numa VI piano for same reason I love Pianoteq.  But also sometimes have issues with Pianoteq in the studio (and live)  where a sampled piano sometimes just works better.  As a long time Yamaha user, I guess I'm also more accustomed to that sound for live use.  Where I would respond better to the sound more than the playability, if that makes any sense.   Really missed having the  Numa's additional layers, and the 4 channel on-board mixer. 

 

Just offering this little slice of my personal  experience.  I respect others opinions, and hope you'll do the same.   Haven't had a chance to try YC with the guitar guy- we go back out in late  December.

 

 

That's some great playing! I really enjoyed the performance. I can hear what you mean about the Numa EPs getting a little lost in the mix, but I wondered if it might be partially due to the guitar and EP occupying a similar tonal spectrum. But I've noticed that, with the EP modeling creating quite a thick tone, chords may become less distinct, particularly with effects applied. The AP sounded pretty good (was it the Vintage?), but you can still just detect that rather "honky" quality that seems to affect all the pianos to some degree.

 

I have to admit that I felt a little deflated after reading about your YC vs Numa experience. I spent months agonizing between those two (with the Nord Piano 5 73 also trying to tempt me into the red corner and penury), but I eventually opted for a factory refurbished YC. Delivery got delayed by a few days due to a storm, and when it arrived it exhibited very strange behavior - cutting out and then sustaining every D and G# unprompted - so I sent it back. For the short time I had it, I could tell that it's a very accomplished and refined board, covering all bases reasonably well, although I found the interface a tad confusing and the action was so-so. After briefly flirting with the notion of spending a bit more to get a new YC, I rejected that as, following my experience, I wasn't sure I was going to be able to trust it, and opted for a new Numa, with a substantial saving on what I had been expecting to spend. It may have been a false economy as, in the few days I've had it, I've been struggling a bit with the APs and was a little perturbed by the pedal anomaly. However, I'm going to stick with it, not least because, when playing the EPs, I felt almost like I'd rediscovered my old SV1's long-lost brother!

 

Although I hope that an update will very swiftly resolve the pedal issue, I really don't expect too much improvement of the APs as the issues seem to be part of the way the sound has been processed - and that may be inherent in the architecture. So I think it's probably a question of finding the best compromise that suits amplification, style of music and other instruments. For a lightweight board the action is good: not as quick as Kawai's RHC, but definitely very playable. (As an aside, I setup a Kawai ES110 alongside the Numa and got unsurprising results: the Kawai's AP sounds great without any real need for tweaking, but the Numa smokes it in everything else except for action.) The Numa's AC adapter (sigh) needs a much better cable. The interface is straightforward, even if the menu system can feel a little convoluted, but the lack of a secondary numeric system for sound access troubles me a little. But in the end it's difficult to grumble about a board that is soildly built, yet weighs under 26lbs and is only around 41" wide. For tight spaces it'll fit better than my Kurzweil SP6, and if I do have to go with a second tier I have a Vox Continental or VR-09 that can be plumbed directly into the Numa, thus saving on gear and setup time. There's a lot to like here.

[CyberGene]

15 hours ago, obxa said:

As first generation Italian, had a sense of pride my entire rig (along with Crumar classic) was from the homeland.  I know that's silly.

[offtopic]
I don't know how silly that is, but what is silly is I'm not an Italian, yet I try to use/have/purchase as many Italian things as possible 😀🇮🇹 I guess I'm an Italian wannabe in some way, I love Italy so much! BTW, in a DNA test I'm reported as having 18% Italian (Cyber)Genes, so can't be fully accused of cultural appropriation.
[/offtopic]

[voxpops]

Spending more time with it, I'm getting more of a handle on the board generally and the APs in particular. Surprisingly, I'm finding uses for the multiple AP variants, as I haven't yet come across one that I feel is truly multi-purpose - with perhaps the JpnGrand being the closest. The VintGrand comes close, too, but the lower register can sometimes sound a little too idiosyncratic. But I appreciate the "robustness" of the APs - I don't think they can be described as thin - which isn't always the case with lower-priced boards (or even some more expensive ones).

 

One thing that would be nice to have is a delay available within the insert effects for use with splits, when a master delay isn't appropriate for all parts.

 

Another little OS anomaly I've found is that there is no HybridFM7 available from the front panel. When attempting to select HybridFM7, the board always defaults to HybridFM8!

[CyberGene]

I've mentioned previously how the acoustic pianos all sound meh to me through headphones, however in the practice room through the stereo PA they all sound very good. I'm wondering if that's a coincidence or an intentional processing. 

[obxa]

12 hours ago, voxpops said:

That's some great playing! I really enjoyed the performance. I can hear what you mean about the Numa EPs getting a little lost in the mix, but I wondered if it might be partially due to the guitar and EP occupying a similar tonal spectrum. But I've noticed that, with the EP modeling creating quite a thick tone, chords may become less distinct, particularly with effects applied. The AP sounded pretty good (was it the Vintage?), but you can still just detect that rather "honky" quality that seems to affect all the pianos to some degree.

 

I have to admit that I felt a little deflated after reading about your YC vs Numa experience.

Thanks for the kind words! Yes pretty much only use the "Vintage  AP" with variations of it's brightness. I usually turn the damper, resonance and sympathetic stuff way down or to zero.  That distorted EP they have on there is weird to tame.  It's lucioous by itself, but agree in the "mid-range battleground" easily lost

 

Sorry to be disparaging about YC vs Numa. I know many here have gone back and forth between the YC or even CK. (Cybergene, I think?).   Again the YC is twice as much money.  I still think the Numa punches way above its weight. IMHO in the contexts I mentioned earlier would still be great.   The other half of what I do is more exposed intimate piano.  That's a place I feel sampled piano works better (for me at least...) than modeled piano.  I could just as easily use a dedicated Kawai or Yamaha slab piano for those gigs, and was considering that option  But got the YC at pretty great price. 

 

 I've mentioned in other posts- I've been with Modart's Pianoteq since 1.0 and regularly use it in the studio. But have personally had poor results using the AP's live, whereas the EP's (just like the Numa) worked well.  The playability is wonderful, but there's something about the sound that doesn't work for me when it's naked.  That's just been my experience with all modelled pianos, not just the Numa.  Others may have a better time with it.    I'm not sure I want to get rid of the Numa yet.   Was getting ready to release a gig-ready preset pack for it, which I'll probably just do gratis. 

[CyberGene]

Yes, I’ve owned YC61, YC73, Numa X Piano 88, CP88, Numa X Piano 73, CK61 in that order. I kept the Numa X 73 and the CK61. The Numa for the action and the extended range. The CK for being an ultra portable keyboard that I use with its backpack-style bag.

 

I think the Yamahas are definitely better in almost any respect than the Numa but not by much. The CP88 was terrific, maybe the best stage piano I’ve owned but I have a herniated disc and the CP just hurt my back too much. All of them have cons and pros and it would be a tough choice if have to choose only one of them as my only stage keyboard. If I have to do so though, I’d choose the Numa X 73. 

[b3plyr]

16 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Yes, I’ve owned YC61, YC73, Numa X Piano 88, CP88, Numa X Piano 73, CK61 in that order. I kept the Numa X 73 and the CK61. The Numa for the action and the extended range. The CK for being an ultra portable keyboard that I use with its backpack-style bag.

 

I think the Yamahas are definitely better in almost any respect than the Numa but not by much. The CP88 was terrific, maybe the best stage piano I’ve owned but I have a herniated disc and the CP just hurt my back too much. All of them have cons and pros and it would be a tough choice if have to choose only one of them as my only stage keyboard. If I have to do so though, I’d choose the Numa X 73. 

This just illustrates our differing (but worthwhile) opinions. I bought the Nord Grand over the EX110 and CP88. I sold my Nord Grand  after getting my first Numa X 88 (I also have a GT). For me, in a duo with a vocalist, the Numas are the best purchases I’ve made in a long time. Although the APs are working for me, I think we will see improvement. As long as comments as valuable as those that are posted on this forum, we have a good vehicle to get feedback back to Gianni, et al.

 

Keep it uP1

[voxpops]

11 hours ago, obxa said:

 I've mentioned in other posts- I've been with Modart's Pianoteq since 1.0 and regularly use it in the studio. But have personally had poor results using the AP's live, whereas the EP's (just like the Numa) worked well.  The playability is wonderful, but there's something about the sound that doesn't work for me when it's naked.  That's just been my experience with all modelled pianos, not just the Numa.  Others may have a better time with it.    I'm not sure I want to get rid of the Numa yet.   Was getting ready to release a gig-ready preset pack for it, which I'll probably just do gratis. 

 

Funnily enough, around 9 years ago when I used a PX-5S on stage, I used to attach a Surface tablet running Pianoteq because I didn't connect very well with the Casio's internal pianos. That combination was perhaps the best live piano experience I've had, mainly due, I think, to the PX's advanced MIDI spec, which meant the action interfaced with Pianoteq in an amazingly fluid way. That same tablet - running the original WIndows 8.0 - is still going strong! I occasionally dip into Pianoteq and Ravenscroft on it, but despite the advances with PT8 I much prefer to leave tablets at home and gig with hardware now. One thing I have noticed is that PT seems to sound considerably better on Windows than on iPad.

 

Going back to the Numa, I made a mistake in a post above. I thought that DELAY was a global effect, but now see that each part can be independently set to bypass the master effects, if desired.

 

The more time I spend with the Numa's APs, I feel there are two areas where improvements would make a significant difference. The first is the initial attack (which often seems to decay just a hair too rapidly, making the sound ever so slightly "plinky") and the pp rendering (which seems almost non-existent, losing out on that velvety smoothness when grand piano keys are played very quietly). I've seen a number of similar comments from other people, so it would seem that there's consensus on what would really lift the APs into contention with the best on the market. However. I realize that it's one thing to describe a problem and quite another to fix it. As with all these subtleties there are frequently trade-offs involved: you fix one thing, but it adversely affects something else. So it may not be a simple task to achieve the desired outcomes within the constraints of the overall system. But given the great start that the design team has made with this instrument, I am going to hope for (but not expect) continued evolution.

 

Oh, and a global pedal noise control would be very welcome!

[CyberGene]

1 hour ago, voxpops said:

and the pp rendering (which seems almost non-existent, losing out on that velvety smoothness when grand piano keys are played very quietly). I've seen a number of similar comments from other people, so it would seem that there's consensus on what would really lift the APs into contention with the best on the market.

Indeed, I've been complaining about that problem since the very beginning when I first got a Numa X Piano 88 and lately when I ended up with a Numa X Piano 73. I believe it may have something to do with their engine which they vaguely describe (or maybe I vaguely/wrongly understand) as some clever way to add/subtract frequencies from a single super-sample that has been specifically prepared to allow for producing different velocity-timbre changes without taking the space that separate samples for different velocities would take. However, in my opinion, the soft pp timbres are not what they should be. They still sound like mf samples that are replayed with a lower gain. I am known as a very picky and hardcore acoustic piano aficionado on other forums and so at the time I was really put off by that. I returned the Numa X Piano 88 on the next day exactly because of that issue. At the time I didn't have a lot of time to research the exact reason and we (in this thread) thought it was caused by not well-optimized touch curves. Later on they released firmware updates where the touch response was improved. It's what made me go back to the Numa X, but this time in the 73-key version, since I wanted as light hammer-action keyboard as possible. Unfortunately the issue is still there, although admittedly the touch response is probably also better. Also, I realized I have this keyboard (and all the stage piano I went through in the above list) for a very limited purpose: playing with an amateur band in rock/pop styles where that deficiency is absolutely non-important. At home I have my Yamaha AvantGrand N1X (and my own DIY hybrid grand-piano action controller called Cybrid that I use with Garritan CFX), so I really don't care that my stage piano is not perfect. What I needed more is portability, compact size and excellent MIDI implementation with audio interface. Hence, the Numa X. However, in all fairness, the Yamaha acoustic piano patches just play better than the Numa. 

[voxpops]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Indeed, I've been complaining about that problem since the very beginning when I first got a Numa X Piano 88 and lately when I ended up with a Numa X Piano 73. I believe it may have something to do with their engine which they vaguely describe (or maybe I vaguely/wrongly understand) as some clever way to add/subtract frequencies from a single super-sample that has been specifically prepared to allow for producing different velocity-timbre changes without taking the space that separate samples for different velocities would take. However, in my opinion, the soft pp timbres are not what they should be. They still sound like mf samples that are replayed with a lower gain. I am known as a very picky and hardcore acoustic piano aficionado on other forums and so at the time I was really put off by that. I returned the Numa X Piano 88 on the next day exactly because of that issue. At the time I didn't have a lot of time to research the exact reason and we (in this thread) thought it was caused by not well-optimized touch curves. Later on they released firmware updates where the touch response was improved. It's what made me go back to the Numa X, but this time in the 73-key version, since I wanted as light hammer-action keyboard as possible. Unfortunately the issue is still there, although admittedly the touch response is probably also better. Also, I realized I have this keyboard (and all the stage piano I went through in the above list) for a very limited purpose: playing with an amateur band in rock/pop styles where that deficiency is absolutely non-important. At home I have my Yamaha AvantGrand N1X (and my own DIY hybrid grand-piano action controller called Cybrid that I use with Garritan CFX), so I really don't care that my stage piano is not perfect. What I needed more is portability, compact size and excellent MIDI implementation with audio interface. Hence, the Numa X. However, in all fairness, the Yamaha acoustic piano patches just play better than the Numa. 

Yes, the context does make a difference and I doubt that many people playing the X 73 on stage would be performing a classical music recital. However, with the GT and its superior action, the potential purchaser might be intending to play in a more exposed setting (I viewed a couple of solo GT performances on YT), and even with the TP/110 variants one might be playing in a jazz duo or trio where a subtle touch and sound could be required. I know that you can easily add software pianos as required - and maybe that's a recognition of the board's inherent limitations - but perhaps there's still room for improvement within the chosen sound reproduction methodology. The old GEM pianos exhibited very similar characteristics, sounding generally good, but lacking the dynamic variations, particularly in the pp range. They, too, would rely on single samples with filtering and/or basic modeling - and it's possible that the Kawai ES110 is similar in that regard (although we have no definitive information), managing to achieve a dynamic response that is surprisingly good, given the tiny ROM.

 

Having the Kurzweil SP6, which is in a similar weight and price bracket, it's interesting to compare the approach of the two. The SP6 can access multiple AP samples across the dynamic range within a single AP patch, drawn from its 2GB memory. However, it is limited to two main grand pianos (one of which has some rather odd characteristics!) plus a selection of old triple-strike patches. When I bought my first SP6 I was distinctly underwhelmed by the pianos. If I remember correctly they were based on only three or four dynamic levels. Very soon after, Kurzweil updated the firmware to include something like seven levels for these main pianos. It made a huge difference and has been one of the main reasons I stuck with the board and bought a second as backup. It was clearly a simple thing for Kurzweil to do and required no major re-engineering. I doubt if it's anywhere near as simple a task for Studiologic to make a mf sample sound realistically like pp, let alone ppp. The Kurzweil's action is quick, but can be tiring, requiring significant pressure when the hammer is fully raised, and it also employs flexible plastic pivots, which has so far resulted in one breakage for me (fortunately, an easy fix). The Numa feels better balanced and more sophisticated generally.

 

The SP6 and the Numa share a similar 4-part architecture with seamless switching between sounds and zones within a set, but not between different sets. I have come to really appreciate the SP's layout and ease of operation in a live context - I think it was very well thought-out. (Plus the bonus of the VARIATION button means you have access to what is, essentially, a fifth part.) It's too early for me know how straightforward the Numa will be to use live, but it seems logical and fairly intuitive in that regard. The construction of the Numa is more robust and I have experienced minor flexing of the SP6's chassis, but I'm a little more concerned about how well the rather tall zone knobs and seemingly flimsy pitch/mod sticks will hold up on the Numa compared to the soft-buttons and wheels of the SP.

 

Where the Kurzweil scores heavily is in the range and quality of the non-piano sounds, being able to draw on both VAST technology and the old PC3/Forte libraries as well as newer PC4 tones. In addition, although KB3 may not be everyone's cup of tea, you do have what is essentially a full clonewheel on board. The Numa is limited to a somewhat uninspiring range of samples with very limited editing capability. So, to make up for this it needs to rely on the EP and AP offering. I think the EPs are already very good, giving my Vox Continental and SP6 a run for their money, and the APs have a lot of potential. But perhaps the one area where the Numa hits a home run is in offering a 73-note variant. No, it's not really able to compete against the YC73 or the Nord Piano 5 73, but there are plenty of people who just want a basic piano that's lightweight but robust and will give a convincing performance on stage, without spending a fortune.

[CyberGene]

9 minutes ago, voxpops said:

Where the Kurzweil scores heavily is in the range and quality of the non-piano sounds, being able to draw on both VAST technology and the old PC3/Forte libraries as well as newer PC4 tones. In addition, although KB3 may not be everyone's cup of tea, you do have what is essentially a full clonewheel on board. The Numa is limited to a somewhat uninspiring range of samples with very limited editing capability.

Fully agree. Although there are a few rather nice pads and strings on the Numa, most of the non-piano and non-electric piano sounds are uninspiring. After owning the CK61 for a while, I am really impressed with the high quality of these additional sounds, especially synths, pads, brass, actually everything, I went through every single sound and I have to think hard of a single sounds that I disliked. This is where Kurzweil, Yamaha, Roland and Korg have an advantage with their experience over Studiologic.

[obxa]

5 hours ago, CyberGene said:

(and my own DIY hybrid grand-piano action controller called Cybrid that I use with Garritan CFX)

OFF topic:   Cybergene is way too modest,  only  casually mentioning this- So I'll post this here as a fan,  with hope he'll put a separate topic on the MPN forum.  You all really need to check out what he did here, pretty amazing. 

 

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2955099/cybergenes-diy-hybrid-midi-controller-is-finally-here.html

 

 

[obxa]

7 hours ago, voxpops said:

Oh, and a global pedal noise control would be very welcome!

Somewhere back deep in this thread you can see my exchange with Gianni about the need for a global setting for the piano parameters.

 

[voxpops]

2 hours ago, obxa said:

OFF topic:   Cybergene is way too modest,  only  casually mentioning this- So I'll post this here as a fan,  with hope he'll put a separate topic on the MPN forum.  You all really need to check out what he did here, pretty amazing. 

 

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2955099/cybergenes-diy-hybrid-midi-controller-is-finally-here.html

 

 

My goodness, that is amazing - in all respects! Well done, Cybergene!

[CyberGene]

Thanks for the kind words guys 😊 That project is already three years old and I havent used it in a while. But I may create a new thread for people who might be interested in stuff like that. And who knows, maybe someone will get inspired to make their own and better DIY controller 🙂

[TomKittel]

Back to the subject. A few days ago I got a Numa XPiano73. I had no high expectations but I'm very impressed. It far exceeded my expectations. I had formerly owned a Studiologic SL73 for a few days before I sent it back. The TP100 keybed of the SL73 was unplayable for me. But the new TP110 is a completely different story. The keybed plays superbly well and the APs and EPs are top notch. I really love playing this thing! 

Also I don't share the view that the non-piano sounds are uninspiring. Additional sounds and two fine new APs can be downloadad from the Studiologic website once you registered the instrument. With a little programming (which is easier than with any other keyboard I ever owned) I was able to create some really outstanding synth pads, strings and brass sounds. These sounds can be made up of up to four layers (think of NS4). Each layer can use individual FX (!). Some of these programs sound better and more realistic than what I was used to from my NS3 compact or YC61. Add to that the sophisticated masterkeyboard functions and the ingenious four audio inputs mixer feature plus the brilliant iPad integration and the included PC or Mac USB audio interface. If Studiologic continues to add more good downloadable sounds the XPiano could become a serious Nord challenger which costs much less than the red Swedes. This thing is a keeper for sure!

JMTC 

[RandyFF]

Tom,

I agree about the sound quality, overall I find it very good and at times inspiring, including the pianos.  And I totally agree about the killer feature set that this board has.  

 

You missed the opening rush of people giving reviews, but there are still many of us that want to hear it.  As you get to know the board more, an in-depth review would be much appreciated!

[voxpops]

19 hours ago, TomKittel said:

Back to the subject. A few days ago I got a Numa XPiano73. I had no high expectations but I'm very impressed. It far exceeded my expectations. I had formerly owned a Studiologic SL73 for a few days before I sent it back. The TP100 keybed of the SL73 was unplayable for me. But the new TP110 is a completely different story. The keybed plays superbly well and the APs and EPs are top notch. I really love playing this thing! 

Also I don't share the view that the non-piano sounds are uninspiring. Additional sounds and two fine new APs can be downloadad from the Studiologic website once you registered the instrument. With a little programming (which is easier than with any other keyboard I ever owned) I was able to create some really outstanding synth pads, strings and brass sounds. These sounds can be made up of up to four layers (think of NS4). Each layer can use individual FX (!). Some of these programs sound better and more realistic than what I was used to from my NS3 compact or YC61. Add to that the sophisticated masterkeyboard functions and the ingenious four audio inputs mixer feature plus the brilliant iPad integration and the included PC or Mac USB audio interface. If Studiologic continues to add more good downloadable sounds the XPiano could become a serious Nord challenger which costs much less than the red Swedes. This thing is a keeper for sure!

JMTC 

Congratulations on the purchase!

 

I'm getting used to the Numa X now and I agree that the TP/110 is a very playable action. I'm also enjoying the EPs and some of the APs, particularly on headphones and recordings, and am working through EQ and other settings to optimize the piano for stage amplification.

 

When I said that I found some of the non-piano sounds "somewhat uninspiring" I should have qualified that with "for particular types of music." Coming from keyboards with built-in VA synths and dedicated organ sections, I have found the Numa's rompler characteristics limiting - even when compared with the old Korg Triton LE. Anyone playing European folk music or augmenting theater productions with orchestral sounds will be very well served, but if you're looking for evolving sounds or portamento synths for prog and other rock or ambient genres you won't find them here. However, there are some nice pads and strings, and it is certainly useful to be able to layer as required. What I also agree with is that the clarity and depth of what is there is excellent, but as with many romplers it's a good idea to find the pitches at which the non-piano sounds work best.

 

Having said that, I think if you accept it for what it is, it fills a niche, especially with the 73 (and the GT for different reasons), that is very sparsely populated. Without separate synth and organ sections I don't think it's realistically a Nord Stage competitor, and some of the recent enhancements to the Piano 5 mean that it might be a bit of a struggle there in a side-by-side comparison. As for the YC that also has a clonewheel engine and FM synthesis, there's a lot more on the table than with the Numa X. However, if you accept the X Piano as exactly that - a piano - I think it competes well with most other brands, even in a significantly higher price bracket. I certainly prefer the APs, EPs and action over the YC73. Add in the audio interface, controller capabilities, extended polyphony, downloadable sounds, build quality and price and you have a winner!

[SLHQC]

Here's a patch I've arrived at which I think will make a good live piano sound for use in a rock band setting (not that I've had a chance to do that yet but it cuts through nicely when playing along with recorded tracks). I think it's a nice blend of brightness, attack and expressiveness while maintaining a good degree of realism.

 

Internal sound: VintGrand

Tone: 74

String res: 48

Duplex: 32

Ped noise: 56

 

FX A: Equaliser (amount - 127, low - 68, mid - 93, high - 96)

 

FX B: Compressor (Amount - 74, Thd - 56, Ratio - 106, Env - 65)

 

Reverb: Type - room (amount  - 49, time - 60, early - 30, hidamp -30).

 

Have a go and let us know what you think. 🙂

[voxpops]

On 11/19/2023 at 8:16 AM, SLHQC said:

Here's a patch I've arrived at which I think will make a good live piano sound for use in a rock band setting (not that I've had a chance to do that yet but it cuts through nicely when playing along with recorded tracks). I think it's a nice blend of brightness, attack and expressiveness while maintaining a good degree of realism.

 

Internal sound: VintGrand

Tone: 74

String res: 48

Duplex: 32

Ped noise: 56

 

FX A: Equaliser (amount - 127, low - 68, mid - 93, high - 96)

 

FX B: Compressor (Amount - 74, Thd - 56, Ratio - 106, Env - 65)

 

Reverb: Type - room (amount  - 49, time - 60, early - 30, hidamp -30).

 

Have a go and let us know what you think. 🙂

Just gave that a try - certainly bright and punchy! It shows that the Vintage Piano is versatile and doesn't lose too much authenticity when tweaked. Thanks for posting your settings.

[danskeys]

Hi everyone, I posted this on another forum, but it doesn't seem to have the traffic this thread has.  Hoping I can get some opinions here.  I originally posted this a couple months ago:

 

---------
Yesterday I went to Guitar Center where they (finally) had a GT on display. My goal is to use it as a controller for my Nord Stage 4 HA73. I was really excited to try out this keyboard! Unfortunately I'm 99.9% certain the GT they had on display was defective. The lower octaves, particularly the G2 key, was horribly inconsistent. Multiple repeats of the keys in this area of the board produced anywhere from almost no sound, to loud strikes. I thought maybe I was crazy, but the GC guy confirmed it seemed broken. The keybed did feel good, but it was such a bad experience, it was hard to feel good about buying it. Has anyone experienced such an issue with their GT? Someone probably just spilled a drink into it while on display?
----------

 

I am again thinking about getting a NXPGT to use mostly as a MIDI controller. However I have read that a couple of other folks have had this same keybed issue. it seems it is bigger than a one-off issue. It might be that many of these GT units have this problem. The question then becomes: are there people on here using the GT primarily as a MIDI controller that do NOT have keybed anomalies when triggering and re-triggering notes?

 

Thanks for any reassurances!

[b3plyr]

15 hours ago, danskeys said:

Hi everyone, I posted this on another forum, but it doesn't seem to have the traffic this thread has.  Hoping I can get some opinions here.  I originally posted this a couple months ago:

 

---------
Yesterday I went to Guitar Center where they (finally) had a GT on display. My goal is to use it as a controller for my Nord Stage 4 HA73. I was really excited to try out this keyboard! Unfortunately I'm 99.9% certain the GT they had on display was defective. The lower octaves, particularly the G2 key, was horribly inconsistent. Multiple repeats of the keys in this area of the board produced anywhere from almost no sound, to loud strikes. I thought maybe I was crazy, but the GC guy confirmed it seemed broken. The keybed did feel good, but it was such a bad experience, it was hard to feel good about buying it. Has anyone experienced such an issue with their GT? Someone probably just spilled a drink into it while on display?
----------

 

I am again thinking about getting a NXPGT to use mostly as a MIDI controller. However I have read that a couple of other folks have had this same keybed issue. it seems it is bigger than a one-off issue. It might be that many of these GT units have this problem. The question then becomes: are there people on here using the GT primarily as a MIDI controller that do NOT have keybed anomalies when triggering and re-triggering notes?

 

Thanks for any reassurances!

I have the GT and the keybed does not have any problems. I also have the 88 and think the TP110 is really good. 

[danskeys]

2 hours ago, b3plyr said:

I have the GT and the keybed does not have any problems. I also have the 88 and think the TP110 is really good. 

Really? Both. Why? One for home/studio and one to travel?  I am thinking I will get the GT to control my 73-note Nord at home and travel with just the Nord. I really like the action of the Nord, which I understand is the TP40L (or maybe M?). But I’ve realized that I truly miss the extra 15 keys. So while I’d use the GT as a controller mostly, I always like playing with other sounds and its seems some in the Numa X are very good.

 

Regarding the TP110, I’m tempted to buy the 88 to try that out, but most people say it’s a step

down from the TP40 and the TP400Wood is a step up from it. While I would love to save the money on the 88, it’s something I’ll have for a long time and am willing to pay more for the GT. 

[b3plyr]

7 hours ago, danskeys said:

Really? Both. Why? One for home/studio and one to travel?  I am thinking I will get the GT to control my 73-note Nord at home and travel with just the Nord. I really like the action of the Nord, which I understand is the TP40L (or maybe M?). But I’ve realized that I truly miss the extra 15 keys. So while I’d use the GT as a controller mostly, I always like playing with other sounds and its seems some in the Numa X are very good.

 

Regarding the TP110, I’m tempted to buy the 88 to try that out, but most people say it’s a step

down from the TP40 and the TP400Wood is a step up from it. While I would love to save the money on the 88, it’s something I’ll have for a long time and am willing to pay more for the GT. 

Yes, GT in the studio (I am one that is looking for lighter weights) and the 88 for gigs. Another reason is the GT is a bit heavier in touch than the 88. I need the heavier touch to help keep up my finger strength. As to keybed preferences, I just sold a Nord Grand because I like the GT and 88 keybed so well. The Nords are great, in the past I have had 4, but the new Numa Xs are too.