New Studiologic Numa X Piano

[drawback]

8 hours ago, kenheeter said:

So, the TP110 or the GT?  Very interested in your review of the TP110 if that's what you're getting.

 

Same here. The TP110 could be the beginning of a new standard to replace the TP100's in quite a few other keyboards as well. 

[HammondDave]

41 minutes ago, drawback said:

Same here. The TP110 could be the beginning of a new standard to replace the TP100's in quite a few other keyboards as well. 

I’ll tell you tomorrow…. My X88 with the TP110 will arrive in the morning. 

[Dockeys]

5 hours ago, drawback said:

Same here. The TP110 could be the beginning of a new standard to replace the TP100's in quite a few other keyboards as well. 

read back a few pages on the thread as I had the Numa X 73 for a few weeks and gave it a good run through. I think if you like the 100 action you’ll like the 110. If you didn’t like it you probably won’t be enamoured with the newer action. 
 

For me, and this is completely subjective, the sounds and action just didn’t gel. I couldn’t get the sounds to respond in the way I normally play. I watched all the videos but couldn’t get it to sound like what I heard. For me it was a combination of not liking the action enough and the pianos and elec pianos just weren’t up to standard. I ended up getting a CP73. 
 

I will say this it’s an amazingly compact design and the layout is superb. Minimal amount of knobs but they all have multiple uses so it’s really easy to use especially when controlling and iPad. Hopefully others will get more out of it than I did. 

[CyberGene]

37 minutes ago, Dockeys said:

I think if you like the 100 action you’ll like the 110. If you didn’t like it you probably won’t be enamoured with the newer action. 
 

For me, and this is completely subjective, the sounds and action just didn’t gel. I couldn’t get the sounds to respond in the way I normally play. I watched all the videos but couldn’t get it to sound like what I heard. For me it was a combination of not liking the action enough and the pianos and elec pianos just weren’t up to standard. I ended up getting a CP73. 

I hated the TP100 in my SL73. What you say worries me a little… But I have no choice right now, the CP73 will be available “in a few months” on Thomann 😢 The CP88 is listed as available in 2-3 weeks but I’m not sure I can accommodate a heavy 88-key board. I’ve returned two B-stock items to Thomann in the last 2 months and I’m wondering where their acceptable limit is…

[Dockeys]

42 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

I hated the TP100 in my SL73. What you say worries me a little… But I have no choice right now, the CP73 will be available “in a few months” on Thomann 😢 The CP88 is listed as available in 2-3 weeks but I’m not sure I can accommodate a heavy 88-key board. I’ve returned two B-stock items to Thomann in the last 2 months and I’m wondering where their acceptable limit is…

I always found Thomann fine for returns but I sometimes have a similar feeling about sending items back. I’ve returned 3 keyboards in the last year and a half, one for defects and two because I didn’t get with them. They were absolutely fine and It’s part and parcel for them to do returns. Also a happy customer is a returning customer and I give them a lot of business. 
 

Give the tp110 a go and see how you fare. I only tried the TP100 on a friends SL88 and thought it was livable with so was hoping the updated one would be better. It was a little but not enough for me. 

[stoken6]

7 hours ago, Dockeys said:

I always found Thomann fine for returns but I sometimes have a similar feeling about sending items back. I’ve returned 3 keyboards in the last year and a half, one for defects and two because I didn’t get with them. They were absolutely fine and It’s part and parcel for them to do returns. Also a happy customer is a returning customer and I give them a lot of business. 

I've returned to Thomann (a Studiologic Acuna - the grandfather of the Numa X), and they were fine with it. They wanted me to complete their forms and everything, but it went through very smoothly after that. Customer service in Germany was polite, helpful and spoke good English.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[stoo schultz]

I spent a couple hours yesterday playing the Numa X 73 in a showroom before coming to this thread, and was about to post here but it would have been almost exactly what Dockeys just said above.

 

I went back and forth between the Numa and other boards (Nord, Yamaha CP, Kawai, Casio) and found that the sound/action for the acoustic pianos on the Numa just don't mesh for me the way they do for the other stage pianos. Maybe there are adjustments that could improve the connection between the mechanism and the sound response, I don' t know and didn't explore those possibilities. Just more enjoyment and expressiveness playing the other latest stage pianos, and not as much on the Numa. The key action, all by itself, actually felt good for the low weight category, was quiet with no after-bounce.  So, for a solo playing experience with classical/jazz, probably not a board I would choose. Of course this is 100% subjective!

 

Unfortunately there was no 88 with the heavier action on hand to compare.

 

Other than that, the other features and design all seem exceptional.

 

 

[CyberGene]

52 minutes ago, stoo schultz said:

found that the sound/action for the acoustic pianos on the Numa just don't mesh for me the way they do for the other stage pianos.

 

This is even more worrying for me now 😀 I'm wondering if I should cancel the order. The only two other stage pianos that will be available in 1-2 weeks in Thomann are the CP88 and the YC88. Since I loved the YC73 but they told me it would be 2 more months to wait and I need it now, I'm wondering whether I should just accept I will have to pay even more and order the YC88 and try to cope with the large and heavy board. Or give up the organ and FM and go for the CP88. Or keep on waiting for the pretty inexpensive Numa X 73 but honestly I'm not convinced, remembering how much I hated the SL73 since that action was a burden to play. It was a damage for my hands and I own a Yamaha AvantGrand N1X, so I know what a real grand piano action is

[stoo schultz]

16 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

 

This is even more worrying for me now 😀 

Well, all I can say is that this is very subjective, and your reaction might be different.  It's really not a good situation for folks who don't have access to a good showroom -- it's just not ideal for a good A/B by this method of ordering a delivery and sending back under the 30-day return. It really helps to have several boards nearby to check back and forth. Best of luck to you whatever you decide, CyberGene.

[HammondDave]

Where are the apes????

 

 

[HammondDave]

That’s more like it…

 

[HammondDave]

Ok. First impressions (mind you, coming from primarily a B3 player)… I like this weighted action more than the Yammies and Nords I played.  The keys are nice and long and it takes very little extra effort to play a chord at the top of the keys than at the bottom, which I know has been a complaint in the past. The keys feel really nice and quiet. Not too slippery, not spongy or bouncy. In fact, there seems to be no bounce at all! Had no problem playing “Josie” on it. I’ve only played it for about half an hour so I have no idea about hand fatigue yet, but I am sure I’m going to get used to it because it sounds fantastic. More to come …

[thomsurf]

Glad to hear first impressions are good, Dave. I’ve been playing mine for 4 months now and with all things considered, I’m getting a long with it pretty well. My favourite piano patch at the moment (it changes often) is vintage grand split with american grand in the lower half.  Cheers

[CyberGene]

So, how many people here own a Numa X Piano with TP/110 action? @thomsurf, is yours a GT or a 73/88? What I'm really interested in is whether they managed to reduce the perceived heaviness of the TP/100LR action. On my SL73 the keys had both an unusually high static weight (I don't remember exactly although I have specialized piano regulation weights and measured it, might have been in excess of 70g when the standard is around 50g, for instance my AvantGrand N1X is 50g in the middle octave) and high dynamic weight. The latter is difficult to measure but is felt when playing it for some time (in particular with fast lines) and you feel the keys have high inertia that quickly leads to fatigue in the hands.

[HammondDave]

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

So, how many people here own a Numa X Piano with TP/110 action? @thomsurf, is yours a GT or a 73/88? What I'm really interested in is whether they managed to reduce the perceived heaviness of the TP/100LR action. On my SL73 the keys had both an unusually high static weight (I don't remember exactly although I have specialized piano regulation weights and measured it, might have been in excess of 70g when the standard is around 50g, for instance my AvantGrand N1X is 50g in the middle octave) and high dynamic weight. The latter is difficult to measure but is felt when playing it for some time (in particular with fast lines) and you feel the keys have high inertia that quickly leads to fatigue in the hands.

I played for three hours tonight and feel no fatigue. And i have had five tendon release hand surgeries along with Arthritis.  

 

 

[CyberGene]

Thank you, David! I think I will wait for the Numa X Piano 73 from Thomann anyway, just because it's very lightweight, half the price of the YC73 and I really like the YouTube demos. Even if it's only a slight improvement over the SL73 (and even if it is not as smooth and light feeling as the BHS action in the YC73) I'd still keep it. I will know in two weeks.

[thomsurf]

Mine is not a GT - I find the action to be quite hard. I was sore in the beginning but have gotten used to it by now. It’s a simple action with plasticy keys that bottoms out rather hard. For band work it’s quite fine but I have yet to play a solo gig. I have one coming up in May and have hopes it’ll be ok. 

[kenheeter]

Dave, sounds like a keeper! I have a Nord Stage 2 EX and a Crumar Seven, both have TP100 actions.  For some reason the Seven is more engaging to play than the Nord, I can't figure out why.  It might be that keyboard - sample connection that I keep hearing about. I'm really looking forward to your full evaluation after you've had it for a while. Congrats!

[CyberGene]

Any chance some of you who own the TP/110 Numa piano can measure the static weight of a key through coins or something like that? 😀 Basically you put coins on top of each other in the front part of a key (I guess they are non-graded, so it doesn't matter which one) until it goes down from the weight. Then measure the weight. On many acoustic pianos this is usually 50g. 

[AnotherScott]

The "nickel test," while imperfect, does provide some interesting info... but I think you do want to differentiate between whether you're interested in how many coins it takes to make the key move at all, vs. how many keys it takes to make the key hit bottom.

[HammondDave]

For those concerned with the "heaviness" of the action, the Numa X has a Keyboard Sensitivity adjustment in the system settings that allows you to lower the pressure of the keys. It defaults at 0.. but you can add up to 25% to the sensitivity.  I set mine at 15% and it's perfect for me.  

 

[HammondDave]

48 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Any chance some of you who own the TP/110 Numa piano can measure the static weight of a key through coins or something like that? 😀 Basically you put coins on top of each other in the front part of a key (I guess they are non-graded, so it doesn't matter which one) until it goes down from the weight. Then measure the weight. On many acoustic pianos this is usually 50g. 

 

7 nickels starts the key moving (35 grams).... 15 holds it at the bottom (75 grams).  

 

[CyberGene]

33 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

7 nickels starts the key moving (35 grams).... 15 holds it at the bottom (75 grams).  

Thanks! That's not bad at all and you should put the coins as much as possible towards the front of the key, so the actual weights should be even lower there. And I agree with anotherscott the test is not perfect but yeah, still better than nothing. I think some people measure what weight is needed for the keyboard to start generating velocities > 1, or even what weight is needed to generate MIDI velocity of 100 but that's too vague and I don't think it makes a lot of sense until compared against other boards. I think there was some screenshot here on this forum comparing various boards but I'm not sure about the methodology used.

[HammondDave]

27 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

Thanks! That's not bad at all and you should put the coins as much as possible towards the front of the key, so the actual weights should be even lower there. And I agree with anotherscott the test is not perfect but yeah, still better than nothing. I think some people measure what weight is needed for the keyboard to start generating velocities > 1, or even what weight is needed to generate MIDI velocity of 100 but that's too vague and I don't think it makes a lot of sense until compared against other boards. I think there was some screenshot here on this forum comparing various boards but I'm not sure about the methodology used.

 

As an interesting comparison, it takes 12 coins to start the key of my vantage 1955 B3 moving... and over 20 to hit the bottom. 

 

[CyberGene]

@HammondDave that is where dynamic weight comes into play. A waterfall action is spring-driven and these weights you measured only overcome the spring tension. However once your fingers overcome that force, there is no hammer or weight that has inertia and you won’t feel you need to apply additional force to accelerate the key. In contrast, the piano action might have lower static weight (the nickel test) but high dynamic weight, i.e. sluggish and with high inertia. 
 

Imagine the following experiment. You have a lever with two equal length arms and you attach one ton on each side. Then put one additional gram on the rear arm. The static weight of the lever is only one gram, i.e. you need to put slightly more than 1 gram on the front arm for it to start moving towards the bottom. But due to the enormous weights attached to each arm, you will have to exert enormous hand force to accelerate the lever due to the high inertia. Remove the weights and it becomes much more nimble and light feeling. So, static weight is the balance weight, the one you feel if you move the key very slowly. Dynamic weight is the one you feel when playing as sluggishness and is dependent on the underlying mass/weights. 

[HammondDave]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

@HammondDave that is where dynamic weight comes into play. A waterfall action is spring-driven and these weights you measured only overcome the spring tension. However once your fingers overcome that force, there is no hammer or weight that has inertia and you won’t feel you need to apply additional force to accelerate the key. In contrast, the piano action might have lower static weight (the nickel test) but high dynamic weight, i.e. sluggish and with high inertia. 
 

Imagine the following experiment. You have a lever with two equal length arms and you attach one ton on each side. Then put one additional gram on the rear arm. The static weight of the lever is only one gram, i.e. you need to put slightly more than 1 gram on the front arm for it to start moving towards the bottom. But due to the enormous weights attached to each arm, you will have to exert enormous hand force to accelerate the lever due to the high inertia. Remove the weights and it becomes much more nimble and light feeling. So, static weight is the balance weight, the one you feel if you move the key very slowly. Dynamic weight is the one you feel when playing as sluggishness and is dependent on the underlying mass/weights. 

 

Thanks Gene!  Physics is a wonderful thing...

[HammondDave]

OK.. my initial reactions...

 

PROS:

The sound:  Very nice selection of pianos, EPs, Synth, orchestral instruments.  The AC's and EP's are outstanding , With a good set of speakers, it's Scary realistic. The lows and highs are amazing!  So glad I ordered the 88 version. Maybe the best Rhodes sound yet, with some tweaking... and tweaking is so easy... which brings me to...

 

The Operating System: OK, I work in a very technical industry (Lighting Design). I do not appreciate creative machines that are difficult to use. Whoever came up with the editing concept behind the Numa Piano X deserves a raise! I have yet to look at the manual. It's amazingly easy to edit any patch. It just all makes sense. 

 

The Keyboard and Action: Yes, there is a lot of chatter about this. But this keyboard looks and feels expensive. And after playing it for 8 hours, my hands are fine (and they are pretty screwed up, believe me!) I tried most of the competitors, and I could never find a keyboard that felt good. Either too light, or too noisy, or too hard, and none of them had the feeling of quality that the TP110 has. I would love to try the TP400!

 

Future Sample Library: This is pretty exciting.  The ability to add to these already excellent sounds is pretty cool. Could be a Nord killer.

 

Polyphony:  300 voices... A ridiculous amount.

 

Internal Mixer:  If I were to gig with this board, everything would go through it! Maybe in my studio as well.

 

Size and Weight:  Will fit in a 76 key slim case (nice)...  And 31 lbs for a 88 key hammer action board? Case closed.

 

Factory Presets: Excellent variety of great sounding combinations.  Had a blast playing them. 

 

The Look.  Beautifully organized and aesthetically pleasing.  Plus it's not red (just kidding, Nord fans).

 

The Price: $1550... Love the Italians!

 

CONS:

No Pitch/Mod Wheels: What's with these stupid sticks?  

The “Hammond” Sounds: If you can’t do it right, don’t do it at all. Otherwise you are just pissing us off! (That goes for you too, Yamaha!)

 

External Power Supply:  Really?  Oy vey!

 

 

I will add to this list as new things come up.  

 

 

[Morrissey]

29 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

OK.. my initial reactions...

 

Great details and useful opinions.  Thanks!

[HSS]

Thanks for informative review Dave!  I have the Numa Compact 2x, which I like but it also has the pitch and mod sticks. I'm always afraid that in a moment of unfettered enthusiasm I'll grab one of 'em and break it.   Nevertheless, IMO Studiologic is kicking some buttocks at the price point of their recent keyboard offerings.

[CyberGene]

I received an email from Thomann that the availability date for the Numa X Piano 73 shifts with one week... Man, that sucks, it's what happened with my YC73 order that made me switch to the Numa... So, I started looking at what else I could order but nothing interesting was available. And then I opened an online music store that I use from time to time Muziker and there was a Numa X Paino 88 in stock that with a 5% discount. After a short consideration, I decided to order it, along with the matching Studiologic soft-case that costs same as the discount 😀 I could also chose among some gifts and so I selected a (€31 worth) colorful children Melodica 🥳