New Studiologic Numa X Piano

[funkyhammond]

9 hours ago, CyberGene said:

When playing the Numa yesterday, I noticed that switching between presets would often result in clicks and noises for 1-2 seconds. Have you noticed it? I think it is due to the effects but can’t be sure.

 

Another thing that bothered me a little was the rotating knob would rarely switch to the next preset and then switch back, like not being 100% mechanically reliable. But that was really only very rare. 

 

I didn't notice clicks in that situation but I did in a different one. When I was playing with the audio inputs, it took me a little while to figure out how to active them. When I finally did, I had left all of the inputs active even though I was using just one. When I played the internal AP I had going, I could hear clicks at the time of key down. After some investigation I realized it was the active unused inputs. When I disabled those and just left the one I was using active, the clicks went away. By default the audio inputs should be inactive but check them anyway. Press the dedicated audio input button and then when you see the screen split into the 4 audio inputs, they should all be grayed out. Press down on the 4 zone knobs to activate/deactivate the corresponding input.

 

The only issue I've noticed with the knobs so far is that the large menu knob/joystick is difficult to press straight in without also accidentally pushing it down or up. Fortunately, it seems the pressing-in function is rarely needed.

 

[funkyhammond]

2 hours ago, CyberGene said:

Furthermore, I think I found some odd bugs with their modeled resonances.

 

Yeah, I get the overall impression that the sounds, whether it's the samples or the modeling, have just not be really refined. I'm guessing they just don't have the resources of the big manufacturers to refine everything to the same degree. Considering it costs almost half of what similar boards cost, I guess I'm not surprised. When I go over and play a Yamaha or Roland, I definitely just get a sense of a more refined, hi-fidelity sound. Perhaps they are planning on improving things with updates and just wanted to get the product out the door. I don't know anything about Studiologic and if they have a reputation for significant updates. 

[funkyhammond]

Me:  This thing has aftertouch.

Mini-Me:  Cool!

Me:  Now, how do I get it going...

Mini-Me:  Did you look in the manual?

Me:  Yup.

Mini-Me:  Try the menus.

Me:  What do you think I'm doing?

Mini-Me:  There's a little left arrow there. Try pushing the joystick to the left. 

Me:  Your little eyes noticed that more easily than I could. Ok, there it is. So, either off or modulation.

Mini-Me:  That's it?

Me:  That's all there is.

Mini-Me:  So, just like the mod stick?

Me:  Looks like it.

Mini-Me:  You're telling me that after all that build up in that video they made about having aftertouch, and how it was not going to affect the feel of the hammer action, and that this new method of having it on the hammers was going to be more accurate...you're telling me that after all that, all we can do with it is fixed rate vibrato?

Me:  Seems so.

Mini-Me:  Are you kidding?

Me:  Nope.

Mini-Me:  Did you look in the manual?

Me:  Yes! I looked in the manual!!!

Mini-Me:  That's just infuriating!

Me:  I know.

Mini-Me:  I mean, I am really ticked.

Me:  Tell me about it.

Mini-Me:  What if...what if, we took over the world?!!

Me:  Yes!

Mini-Me:  Then we could make this thing do what we want it to do!

Me:  I'm with you!

Mini-Me:  Now we just need an ingenious super weapon to hold the world hostage.

Me:  Oh, I saw some engineers advertising looking for a job online.

Mini-Me:  Perfect!

Me:  Their resumes said their last job was working at some company called LogicStudios or something like that.

Mini-Me:  Let's hire them!

Me:  Done!

[CyberGene]

After I slept it over, I decided to return the Numa X Piano. Let me say it's a pretty good (maybe the best?) instrument for the price and I can't find any dealbreaker fault with it. The action is very good, the build quality is top-notch, the features are endless and well thought while the piano is very compact, lightweight and good looking. It's just that it could've been a bit more refined and I think most of my complaints might eventually be fixed through firmware upgrades. I can say I am a Yamaha fanboy to a degree which would explain why I ordered a CP88 instead (was in stock at Thomann!) 😉

[funkyhammond]

@CyberGene Enjoy your CP88! The CP/YC are still at the top of my short list. 

 

Although I was able to get some Rhodes sounds to a state that I liked after playing with the settings, there are things that were still real deal-breakers for me:

 

- No modulation sources. "Modulation" in the menus (or manual) doesn't mean modulation source, it means fixed-rate vibrato. You don't even have a way to adjust the rate! You want some slow string vibrato? Forget it. You want some really fast vibrato for some synth thing? No way, Jose. It's either their judgement of a medium rate or nothing. 

- Aftertouch can only be used for vibrato even though the sticks can also control FX parameters. What the hell?

- The sticks can control "modulation" (vibrato amount) or any of the FX1/FX2 parameters but not any sound parameters like the synth cutoff or resonance

- The dual-axis stick doesn't move very smoothly (not really a deal-breaker if everything else was addressed)

- No mono synths, no portamento

- Very limited synth editing (cutoff, resonance, attack, release)
 

One positive note: I discovered that the sticks can also be set to control any external CC#. That's not mentioned in the manual, which makes me wonder if they are still working on some feature updates. Having a vibrato with a non-adjustable rate and an aftertouch feature than can only be used for vibrato also makes me think they are working on feature updates.

 

All of the stuff above, with the exception of the feel of the dual-axis stick, can potentially be addressed via firmware updates. If they do, I will reconsider the X Piano.

 

 

[drawback]

I have been interested in the Numa X GT model as an AP/EP instrument, so the above synth & aftertouch controls aren't much of a concern for me. However, the underwhelming APs (kind of expected) and the hyped tine issue (which seem incredulous to me, given they're fully modelled) have led me back to one of the other wood actions, a twice-the-price Legend '70 Artist W for my home-music studio.

 

I tend to look at the latest/greatest Yamahas, Rolands – and it appears Studiologic as joined that group – as a temporary buy. Taking the long view, the Legend, at least for the foreseeable future, is making more sense than ever to me. 

 

Although I really loved the Nord Grand when I had a chance to play one, their EPs just don't do it for me and I'm resigned to the idea they may never be improved upon.

 

Thanks again guys for your very informative work on this project.

[funkyhammond]

3 hours ago, drawback said:

I have been interested in the Numa X GT model as an AP/EP instrument, so the above synth & aftertouch controls aren't much of a concern for me. However, the underwhelming APs (kind of expected) and the hyped tine issue (which seem incredulous to me, given they're fully modelled) have led me back to one of the other wood actions, a twice-the-price Legend '70 Artist W for my home-music studio.

 

 

Have you checked with music stores in BC? There was an X Piano GT apparently on display for a bit here at the Toronto Bloor St L&M store but it was sold before I realized they were starting to get some X Pianos. Maybe you'll get lucky and be able to try one. But if you have the budget, that Legend '70 Artist W seems like it would be great for at home. I'd really be interested to hear your thoughts if you get it.

[drawback]

29 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

 

Have you checked with music stores in BC? There was an X Piano GT apparently on display for a bit here at the Toronto Bloor St L&M store but it was sold before I realized they were starting to get some X Pianos. Maybe you'll get lucky and be able to try one. But if you have the budget, that Legend '70 Artist W seems like it would be great for at home. I'd really be interested to hear your thoughts if you get it.

I have been checking, and saw that the only one in Canada, in Toronto, was in stock before it was quickly snapped up. Finding a Viscount dealer is ridiculous in Canada – no US/Euro dealers can ship it here, yet there are only TWO Canadian retailers, both "home piano & organ" specialty stores. One's in Calgary and by coincidence I'm going there in June. I've already touched base with the store and fingers crossed they will still have one in stock when I get there.

[AnotherScott]

12 hours ago, CyberGene said:

I decided to return the Numa X Piano....I ordered a CP88 instead

If you still have the Numa when the CP arrives, it might be interesting to do some direct side-by-side comparisons!

 

4 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

@CyberGene Enjoy your CP88! The CP/YC are still at the top of my short list. 

...

there are things that were still real deal-breakers for me:

...

- Aftertouch can only be used for vibrato even though the sticks can also control FX parameters. What the hell?

- No mono synths, no portamento

- Very limited synth editing (cutoff, resonance, attack, release)

CP has similar limitations to those deal-breakers (no aftertouch, no mono synth, no portamento, even more limited synth editing). YC gives you the mono synth and portamento, though.

 

3 hours ago, drawback said:

Although I really loved the Nord Grand when I had a chance to play one, their EPs just don't do it for me

They've gotten a bit better, but yeah, they still don't really work for me, either. Neither did the Yamahas I'd played, until the CP/YC.

[HammondDave]

If you want portamento or aftertouch, my suggestion is that you don’t buy a digital piano.   I will have my iPad with Model D, B3X, and Korg Module linked to my X.  

[funkyhammond]

13 hours ago, HammondDave said:

If you want portamento or aftertouch, my suggestion is that you don’t buy a digital piano.   I will have my iPad with Model D, B3X, and Korg Module linked to my X.  

 

To be clear, it's not aftertouch that I was looking for, I was just excited to see it and they hyped it up. My main beef, though, is that whether it's the aftertouch or the mod sticks, "modulation" means just adding vibrato with a non-adjustable rate. To me that's just crazy. But, yeah, they are calling this a digital piano so I guess everything else is just icing. And on that count, the APs and EPs are just decent not great. A digital piano with a much better acoustic piano sound, nice action, and better touch-to-sound connection is the Kaway ES110 for half the price. It doesn't have a 4-channel mixer or USB sound interface but "digital pianos" normally don't have that either. 

[HammondDave]

4 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

To be clear, it's not aftertouch that I was looking for, I was just excited to see it and they hyped it up. My main beef, though, is that whether it's the aftertouch or the mod sticks, "modulation" means just adding vibrato with a non-adjustable rate. To me that's just crazy. But, yeah, they are calling this a digital piano so I guess everything else is just icing. And on that count, the APs and EPs are just decent not great. A digital piano with a much better acoustic piano sound, nice action, and better touch-to-sound connection is the Kaway ES110 for half the price. It doesn't have a 4-channel mixer or USB sound interface but "digital pianos" normally don't have that either. 

 

Have you played the ES110 lately?  Its bare bones with no useful screen. Any keyboard that requires pressing keys for editing functions is not for me.  However, it does play and sound nice... but IMHO not nearly the quality of the sound or keyboard action as the Numa Piano X. And talk about bad AP's... listen to the ES110 again.  The EP's are totally useless. But you are right, for half the price you can buy it. However... in my opinion, you are getting less than half the quality.  

 

The Numa Piano X is an interesting tool.  It has excellent, highly editable AP's and EP's, a very good keyboard, can serve as a good controller/mixer for a live setup, and weighs only 31 pounds!  (the 73 weighs 5 pounds less!). All at a great value.  

 

But that is why they make a lot of digital pianos. There is a right tool for everyone... This may not be for you, but for many others it is. To keep things real, below is a good comparison video between a Nord Stage 3 ($5300... Nord Piano 5 is $3500) and a Numa X ($1550).  Close enough for me....

 

 

 

[funkyhammond]

1 hour ago, HammondDave said:

But that is why they make a lot of digital pianos. There is a right tool for everyone... This may not be for you, but for many others it is.

 

Yes, that's the point. I'm just writing what I like and don't like about this particular tool. I was just responding to you saying: "If you want portamento or aftertouch, my suggestion is that you don’t buy a digital piano." This isn't a typical digital piano. The fact is they did put aftertouch in it, an audio mixer, USB interface, expression pedal input, etc.

 

I'm glad that you and others will find this perfect for them. But others won't. I'm just spelling out everything I've noticed about it. I'm pretty sure at least some people will find my feedback useful.

[HammondDave]

We all have different priorities when it comes to our instruments. I totally respect that, and your opinions. 

[funkyhammond]

EDIT: I'm editing my response to respect that HammondDave edited his while I was typing. I don't want to leave the original quote in there. I'll just say that I brought up the ES110 only to point out that "digital piano" for some people just means a good AP with good action and that the definition can be fluid. The X Piano is some kind of hybrid that has some significant features from stage keyboards and even workstations. Looking at the panel layout and the jacks on the back, the thing suggests a stage keyboard not a digital piano, even if they are calling it an X "Piano". I guess the X is supposed to leave things mysterious and open. 

 

I agree we all have different priorities. I just wanted to give a full review since some people will make the same assumption I did that this feels more like a stage keyboard.

 

[AnotherScott]

It's not uncommon that things don't fall into neat categories, but I think "stage piano" is the best compromise term for Numa X, Yamaha CP73/CP88, Nord Piano 5, Korg SV2, and some Dexibells. There are also some "borderline" models I might add to that group like Kawai MP7SE, Casio PX-5S, Yamaha MX88.

[funkyhammond]

45 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

It's not uncommon that things don't fall into neat categories, but I think "stage piano" is the best compromise term for Numa X, Yamaha CP73/CP88, Nord Piano 5, Korg SV2, and some Dexibells. There are also some "borderline" models I might add to that group like Kawai MP7SE, Casio PX-5S, Yamaha MX88.

 

Even "stage piano" is probably synonymous with "slab piano" for many people. I see labels as just starting points to give a general idea of what is being talked about. After that, it's all about the specifics and nuances. And when it comes to keyboards and other electronics, the technology keeps getting cheaper and more sophisticated and so there is even more potential for blurring of lines. 

[AnotherScott]

I guess one of the thing that qualifies a  "slab" or "digital" piano as a "stage" model to me is lack of speakers... but even that is a generality. It doesn't really make sense to call the plain SV2 a stage piano, but the variation with speakers something else! Similarly, practically speaking, the Kawai ES520/ES920 and Casio PX-560 are arguably sufficiently "stage-friendly" to blur that line. 

[HammondDave]

Yeah. Thanks FunkyHammond for all that.  The Numa is indeed a stage piano that addresses several needs.  I had been searching for a weighted piano keyboard with an easy to play action that could double as a relatively lightweight stage piano/controller.  So it fills that bill beautifully. I considered a heavier studio piano, but there is no way for me to lift a 40lb  keyboard. I originally ordered the 73 at 26lbs, but changed it to the 88 as I can still handle 31lbs. So for me, it fulfills the studio and stage piano niches.  

[funkyhammond]

Yeah, after thinking about it some more I also was thinking stage piano/controller. That would explain why the pitch/mod sticks and aftertouch have limitations internally because they can still be used for whatever externally (although my gripe about the non-smooth movement of the dual-axis stick still stands). The multiple audio inputs and USB audio/MIDI interface also makes it come across as a controller that can streamline your live setup by also being your audio mixer and USB audio interface. The one big thing missing for a controller is a set of sliders. What do you think about that? Sliders would be nice for controlling software organs and synths. Okay, so maybe not a "stage keyboard" but a "stage piano/organizer".

[HammondDave]

32 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

 Okay, so maybe not a "stage keyboard" but a "stage piano/organizer".

…and a new category is born!!!

[funkyhammond]

10 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

…and a new category is born!!!

 

Yup. I actually was curious when I brought up sliders, do you a method for real-time drawbar control for the B-3X or that's not a factor for you?

[AnotherScott]

The 88 at least would have room for something like a Korg NanoKontrol, which could add a bunch of sliders, knobs, and buttons.

[funkyhammond]

25 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

The 88 at least would have room for something like a Korg NanoKontrol, which could add a bunch of sliders, knobs, and buttons.

 

Dumb question: how do you integrate that in? USB hub to merge the USB of the X Piano and NanoKontrol to the laptop/tablet?

[AnotherScott]

yes, you could use a USB hub, or, if your laptop has two free USB ports, you should be able to put the keyboard in one and the Nanokontrol in the other

[HammondDave]

I really don't picture using my X as a performance controller unless the gig called for mostly AP and EP sounds.  I am very happy with my Motif 61 and using the bottom manual for synth/piano/horns/etc.  But if I play in a band with primary AP/EP voices, then the X would be great!  Since I would be compromising the action when playing organ, I should have no problem playing the few B3-X songs by using presets or just changing the virtual drawbars. My job this week is to see how this would work, and creating performance presets with the board split 2, 3, or 4 ways.

 

I will also investigate how to connect the rig up using the Motif as the top manual and the X as the bottom manual. Would definitely require a different stand, but how cool would that be? I may not need my Korg module at all and just use the iPad for Model D.

 

[funkyhammond]

On 5/9/2022 at 12:31 AM, HammondDave said:

My job this week is to see how this would work, and creating performance presets with the board split 2, 3, or 4 ways.

 

I will also investigate how to connect the rig up using the Motif as the top manual and the X as the bottom manual.

 

 

I'll be interested to hear about all that, especially the two manual setup for the iPad B-3X and how it's all hooked up. 

[HammondDave]

3 hours ago, funkyhammond said:

 

I'll be interested to hear about all that, especially the two manual setup for the iPad B-3X and how it's all hooked up. 

I did it yesterday and was sad that hooking all this up is not as simple as I thought. Seems that a manual with step by step instructions would help.  Found a weird issue that may be due to the fact that I may not have it hooked up correctly. First, no issues with controlling the Korg Module and Model D via MIDI. However, I have my Mojo 61 plugged directly into the mixer and if I don't play the Mojo for several minutes, there is a recognition delay when I do play it. For instance, you miss the first quarter second of an organ stab as the input seems to have some type of attenuator on it (who knows?)...  Once the organ is recognized, there are no further delay issues.  May be something that they need an update for. Again, this does not happen with the sound from the iPad.  Weird.... I am sure I will eventually figure this out. LOL.  Splits work fine and are easy to program. I did set up many custom "programs" with all my tweaked EP's and am thrilled with the sounds. 

 

I was considering using this setup for my gigs this weekend, but I decided not to because why gig with a new rig when I am comfortable with my present rig. Again, 75% of the music we play is Hammond-centric, so the Mojo and the Korg Module is perfectly fine, and inspiring.  Plus no piece is over 24 pounds.  In it's rolling case, the Piano X88 is around 40 lbs. That is too heavy for me.  

 

 

[funkyhammond]

41 minutes ago, HammondDave said:

 For instance, you miss the first quarter second of an organ stab as the input seems to have some type of attenuator on it (who knows?)...  Once the organ is recognized, there are no further delay issues.

 

The manual does mention that there's a noise gate on the analog inputs. I bet that's what it is. And I think I recall sometimes seeing a line of text come up on the top or bottom of the audio input screen informing me that the noise gate was engaged. This was when I was trying to figure out the inputs and was activating all of them even though I only had something plugged into one of them. I wouldn't have expected the Mojo or the outputs of any pro digital keyboard to have enough noise to trigger a noise gate, though. 

 

About the dual manual setup, if your top board is the Mojo and you're using its internal organ sound, then I would guess you would run a 5-pin DIN cord out from the X into the Mojo for lower manual. But I'm curious what happens when you want to use the iPad B-3X. Does the Mojo have USB MIDI? What about the Motif 61? Based on the last comment by @AnotherScott, I'm guessing you would need a USB hub of some sort to combine the USB of both boards into the iPad. 

 

General question to anyone: if the top board only has 5-pin MIDI, what are the options for sending both USB from the X Piano and 5-pin MIDI from the top board to an iPad?

 

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

7 minutes ago, funkyhammond said:

if the top board only has 5-pin MIDI, what are the options for sending both USB from the X Piano and 5-pin MIDI from the top board to an iPad?

The simplest way is probably to convert the 5-pin to USB using something like a Roland UM-ONE, then you have two USBs to put into a hub to go into the iPad.