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stoo schultz

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Everything posted by stoo schultz

  1. Looking forward to hearing your report on the ES120, Jazz. Thanks for the alert.
  2. Well, all I can say is that this is very subjective, and your reaction might be different. It's really not a good situation for folks who don't have access to a good showroom -- it's just not ideal for a good A/B by this method of ordering a delivery and sending back under the 30-day return. It really helps to have several boards nearby to check back and forth. Best of luck to you whatever you decide, CyberGene.
  3. I spent a couple hours yesterday playing the Numa X 73 in a showroom before coming to this thread, and was about to post here but it would have been almost exactly what Dockeys just said above. I went back and forth between the Numa and other boards (Nord, Yamaha CP, Kawai, Casio) and found that the sound/action for the acoustic pianos on the Numa just don't mesh for me the way they do for the other stage pianos. Maybe there are adjustments that could improve the connection between the mechanism and the sound response, I don' t know and didn't explore those possibilities. Just more enjoyment and expressiveness playing the other latest stage pianos, and not as much on the Numa. The key action, all by itself, actually felt good for the low weight category, was quiet with no after-bounce. So, for a solo playing experience with classical/jazz, probably not a board I would choose. Of course this is 100% subjective! Unfortunately there was no 88 with the heavier action on hand to compare. Other than that, the other features and design all seem exceptional.
  4. I was 13, was devastating for us kids when we heard they broke up, but then Let it Be came out, so we thought "hey, maybe they didn't really break up after all!" since it was plain as day on the big screen that they were still together. But we just switched our fan energy from Beatles to McCartney's solo album, and then John's. KINK radio in Portland would play entire albums on Sundays, and they played John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band, and we taped the album and played it over and over, trying to figure out if John was serious or not in "God" but sadly seemed he was, and the dream was over. And, we'd just have to carry on. It seemed like that song was written for me personally. But, they might as well still be together, because the songs are timeiess.
  5. So, can somebody confirm that the only differences between the two versions (Numa X Piano 88 and Numa X Piano GT) are: 1. The keyboard action (TP110 versus TP40 Wood) 2. Escapement in the GT 3. The wood side panels on the GT 4. Resulting weight (14 versus 22 kg)? The sounds and brains are identical?
  6. The weight (~50 lbs) rules it out as a gigging board for me. As a studio instrument that rarely needs to move, very interesting, but is it competitive against weighted hammer controllers, using virtual instruments? The latter seem more versatile to me.
  7. Another way to look at it -- a diminished scale is the first four notes in two minor scales a tritone apart. And you can play both with 1234 in the RH, or 4321 in the LH. So in this case the two scales are C# minor and G minor, or E minor and Bb minor. Diminished scale has 8 tones (plus octave) while all other diatonic scales have 7 notes (+ octave), so it might help to think of it like this as two groups of four notes, which makes it a bit more portable as we're usually familiar with all the minor scales.
  8. Heh, looks like somebody at Sweetwater might have seen this thread, and liked it https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/keyboard-action-and-key-weight-experiment/?utm_content=article1-button&utm_source=insync&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20200807-t2
  9. Some people think their tendinitis is caused or worsened by the sudden shock to tendons when the key hits bottom, so seek out DPs with a more cushioned feel (like the P-515 and Kawais). But acoustics usually have a more abrupt key stop than DPs, and tendinitis usually is relieved when playing acoustics. So, maybe the abrupt stop isn't the problem? Not sure, but I suspect a more important cause is the short distance to pivot in all DPs compared to acoustics. The shorter distance requires higher forces for the same volume when playing close to the fallboard. If you practice difficult classical pieces in many key signatures then a DP is always going to require more force, and more awkward force close to the fallboard, than practicing on an acoustic. It just seems intuitive to me that this is more likely to cause finger/wrist problems than an abrupt key stop. The Nord Grand is in the middle of the pack on the distance to pivot (around 20 cm, same as the Kawais). The DP with the longest apparent distance to pivot is the Yamaha CP4 (22 cm). I suspect the reason for the cushioned key stop in many of these boards is to prevent the force from breaking the subchassis. If the board is lightweight, it's partly due to a lightweight subchassis, which might be less durable and require more cushioning. My Roland RD700 has an abrupt key stop, and its subchassis has broken four times. Definitely psychologically, the rubbery cushioned stop feels mushy, while the harder stop feels good and satisfying.
  10. Good point, the best action is heavy and the CA98 weighs almost as much as a hybrid, around 200 pounds (though costs less than half). The CA98 action could be the best action that's cheaper than a hybrid.
  11. This is a useful question broken down by weight: Under 300 pounds: one of the hybrid grands (Kawai, Yamaha, Roland) For context, each weighs about 2/3 the weight of a Hammond B3 Under 80 pounds: Kawai MP11SE or Kawai VPC-1 Under 50 pounds: tossup Kawai ES8, Kawai MP7SE, Yamaha P-515 Under 40 pounds: Yamaha CP4 Under 30 pounds: Kawai ES110
  12. Paul on the Hohner Pianet during the Help! sessions
  13. Also considering switching from Roland to Kurz as main board, possibly Forte or PC4. For me the reason was equip failure -- the RD subchassis has broken 4 times, each time replaced by new subchassis -- there is a design flaw there, no desire to chance that again.
  14. Yes as we all know from our kid-playing teeter-totter days, a small kid can lift any big kid no matter how heavy, as long as the big kid is sitting up near the pivot. Yes if it feels good that's all that matters -- but there's so much subjectivity and differences in opinion about what feels good (some people don't like the CP4 action at all, some think it's superlative) that I wanted to see if there is any objective number that seemed to capture what people were praising or complaining about. Not easy to quantify! But, I learned a lot and still am. Yeah I was referring to the slabs -- the hybrids and consoles often do have higher pivot lengths. Interestingly, I did measure the Kawai Novus in the table, and my pivot length measurement for that one was 25 cm, calculated from the key angle. So, pretty accurate! Thanks! I wanted to edit the original post to explain all the stuff that I added later after peoples' suggestions, but apparently the editing function disappears after some time interval. But ironically I can edit the table itself! So that's a good suggestion, I can clarify that length is calculated.
  15. Realistically, I don't find it makes any noticeable difference if I bring a lighter board to a gig. The only problem is the lighter boards didn't have enough good sounds or features, until the Kurz PC4 and SP6 came along. As far as I'm concerned now that those exist there's really no reason to lug heavy boards to the vast majority of gigs.
  16. Jazz+ pointed this out. The reason I chose to measure with the pedal up is because 1) what's important is that the same method be used for all boards, because we're comparing these boards to each other, not to the literature values on acoustics, and 2) I think it's a bit more informative to know the downweights when the pedal is up, because the maximum downweights are more of interest than the minimum downweights, esp. for people with tendon issues.
  17. I agree, but data is data. I measured these as carefully as I could with the tools I had, and reported the results honestly. I think this gives a fairly good idea of the uncertainty in the measurements. A better method would have been to make the measurements several times for each board, and then report the average. But, that's just too much work. it's painstaking to get a good estimate of the angle that the key makes when it's depressed. I think the data is good for showing some broad overall differences. Yeah if you do the calculus of errors, the longer pivot lengths have the larger error, because the number in the denominator is smaller, so small variation in the denominator will have a large proportional effect. Interesting, had not thought of that, but it definitely makes sense! I think the pivot length is very important though -- the other factors of the key mechanism are easy to duplicate -- static weight/inertia are easy to manipulate, and key dip. The tough one though is pivot length, because of the demand to have a lightweight, compact instrument. That's one thing that makes the acoustics feel lighter and more responsive everywhere on the key. I could feel it right away when playing the Steinway D, with 28 cm pivot length -- it felt wonderfully easy and responsive even though having high downweights. There is no digital that I could find with an apparent pivot length greater than 23 cm. I think the market would be very strong for a board that combined just a few easy features -- a pivot length of 25 cm, completely hammer-weighted (no springs), with realistic static weight/inertia for example. It's surprising to me that such a board does not exist. The closest board to that though is the CP4/CP88, which is the one design that seems to get the most positive reviews from experienced players.
  18. Yeah it's not accessible to measure directly -- I did it by using geometry based on the angle of the key as it is depressed, shown in this post: https://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3019541/re-stage-piano-key-action-and-static-touchweights#Post3019541 [bTW I responded to your PM]
  19. My theory as to why the CP4 has such a popular action: of all the digital pianos, it's the model with the longest key pivot distance. It's unrealistic in other ways, for example it has springs, no escapement feel, and very high key upweights, 40% higher than the highest Steinway. Also, the piano modeling has no string resonance. All these things would be deal breakers for many folks if not for the long pivot distance. I think this just shows how important pivot distance is -- it takes priority over pretty much everything. One thing it does not take priority over though is a high spring tension, otherwise the Korg Kross would be up there with the CP4. The spring tension is low enough in the CP4 that the desirable downweight dip in the hammer action is still noticeable.
  20. I think the main reason is the action has springs -- I think the PX-150 has better action because the spring tension is much lower. My theory is that the PX-S reduced the weight of the hammers to bring in more control features at the same keyboard weight, but had to increase spring tension to make up the difference. So the action has a spongier feel than in the older boards. Edit: also have to agree with ElmerJFudd: the S1000/3000 have close to shortest key pivot distance of all the boards, making them much harder to play close to the fallboard.
  21. Keyboard feel is subjective, but for me (also 15 yrs classical piano) I'd say: for your budget the best key actions and best piano sounds are Yamaha P-515, Kawai MP7SE, Kawai ES8, Yamaha CP4, and Yamaha CP40. However these aren't the most sonically versatile boards -- there are many within your budget that are, including one whose action you like, the Roland DS 88. If you like that action, you'd also like the Roland FA-08, which has the same action. If you like the Yamaha P45, then you'd also like the Yamaha ModX, Yamaha MX88, and Yamaha MoxF8, which all have the same action as the P45 but are more sonically versatile. If you want to pay a bit more, then the Yamaha CP 88 probably satisfies all your criteria. Also consider the Kurzweil SP6, whose action is in the range of those you like, but this might be hard to find in a showroom. Alternatively you might want to go the route of getting a controller and module, in which case the Studiologic SL88 Grand is a good inexpensive hammer action (though heavier than the ones you tried), that you could use to control the Dexibell VIVO module or a virtual instrument set.
  22. One point of realism in weighted hammer action in an acoustic piano is the feeling that you're flipping a hammer when you press the key: this means that the initial downward force to start the key/hammer moving is highest, then drops very low after the hammer is flipped and the first escapement kicks in, then increases again as the key nears the floor of its travel and the second escapement is triggered. So the downweight is high at first, drops down to near zero after a few millimeters downward travel, then increases again before the key hits bottom. Call it the "downweight dip" caused by the hammer flip. In contrast, if springs are responsible for the downweight, there is no downweight dip and the key feels less like a hammer flip and more like a sponge, regardless of the downweight. With that in mind, a few observations about these plots: 1. There are some big differences among boards with the same actions, I think caused by modifications of the hammer weights and spring tensions for different markets. For example, the Roland FP 60 versus Roland FP 10, both with the PHA-4 action. The FP 10 has heavier downweights than the FP 60 yet is 6 kg lighter overall, a big difference between two boards that have very similar chassis. I'm thinking that the FP 10, marketed as a lightweight entry-level board, has lighter hammers to reduce its overall weight, and that lost downweight is replaced by springs. This is why its action feels more spongy than the FP 60, and its downweights are higher though its overall weight is less. Another example: the very large difference in downweights between the Korg Krome and Korg Kross (both NH), again with the higher overall board weight in the keyboard with the lower downweights. Again, I think the hammer weights in the Kross were reduced, and the lost downweights replaced by springs, giving the Kross more of a spongy and less of a hammer-flip feel, but allowing a very low total weight. Also within the Yamaha GHS and the Korg RH3 actions there's notable variation in total weight, with the more entry-level piano boards the lowest weight, but hardly any variation in average downweight. Again, this might be caused by modified hammer weights and spring tensions to match. The result is that there are two types of lightweight boards: those with high downweights caused by high spring tension (the spongy feeling boards) and those that leave their downweights lighter and have more of a hammer flip feel (Kurzweil PC4, Kawai ES110). 2. Some boards have a very high total weight, not predicted or needed by the key downweight. Obvious example is the Kawai MP11SE, which has roughtly the same downweights as the Casios, yet weighs almost 70 pounds, three times the weight of the Casios. Hard to see why this is necessary. Another example is the Kawai VPC-1, which is just a controller with no buttons, knobs, or display at all. Why would it weigh 28 kg, ten kilograms higher than the Yamaha CP88 which has roughly the same key downweights, plus banks of control panels and displays? Strange. 3. Sure is some intense competition for the low weight niche down there at around 12-15 kg with downweights of 70 g. About 12 boards massed down there at that spot.
  23. Here are some plots of average key downweight against total keyboard weight, for each board and action, color coded. The total keyboard weight was jittered slightly at random so that the names don't overlap too much. Overall the downweights do predict the total keyboard weight, but there's a lot of variation around the line with some interesting patterns, suggesting the ways these actions have been modified for different markets. Will add some comments in a separate post. http://www.stewartschultz.com/Music/boards%20color.png http://www.stewartschultz.com/Music/actions%20color.png
  24. We'll have to keep wondering about the SP6 as I don't foresee being able to play one any time soon... Yeah I was disappointed after I played the Medeli SP4000 a few weeks ago, could not believe Kurzweil could have chosen such an inferior action. But my worries were unfounded, their modifications really turned it into what is arguably one of the best actions under 30 pounds ... maybe best, along with the somewhat lighter Kawai ES110. Now I'm back to seriously considering a PC4 :-) Edit: well, best if your primary use is the pianos .... for Hammond it's obviously far from ideal.
  25. Yeah I fixed it, now it's just Q and N. NA means not available -- not measured.
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