OT: learning guitar after keys

[johnchop]

I've been a keys-only player all my life (40+ years), and never really had the bandwidth for a second instrument until now.

 

Drums, bass, and guitar have all been attractive, but I've landed on guitar, since that's the biggest "pull". I've started/stopped guitar practice and lessons at least three times in my life. Now's the time to make significant headway.

 

Guitar definitely requires rewiring my older brain, as there's an additional axis of control and as well as totally different hand coordination. (I'm a lefty, too, so my "air guitar" instinct is to strum with the left hand, although I manage well enough with the right.)

 

For the moment I'm working through a method book with a small guitar but will audition beginner acoustics soon.

 

For anyone else who has made this same leap, what was your path?

[The Real MC]

I started on bass guitar. While I had sixteen years of piano lessons, I never had a single guitar lesson. I grew up with an older brother who was the guitar player. So I learned guitar by watching and listening. I'm now a better rhythm player than most guitarists, and am happy to let them enjoy lead guitar as I never progressed to lead playing.

 

Anyone with a solid foundation in piano lessons should be able to learn guitar.

[Piktor]

As a teenager my friends often left their guitars at my house, so I would frequently pick them up and experiment. Over time, I have acquired a few guitars. While I won"t frighten most real guitar players, I can at least play guitar parts into a DAW, often punching in the fragments until I have a complete 'performance'. I have never had a formal lesson, nor did I use a method book. I found that, once I could understand how notes are mapped across the fretboard and how the same note could be found in multiple places on the neck, I could figure out how to play chords and their inversions. For me, it was important to map out the fretboard in relation to a keyboard.

A few other things that were helpful to realize:

You don"t have to play every string on every chord, especially if you have a bass already playing the root.

It is easy to have a guitar in your hands in every room of the house. Whoever watches television with you will not appreciate that.

Keeping the guitar on a stand rather than in its case will result in you picking it up several times a day. Hours spent getting familiar and comfortable with it pay off. If you will using a pick, I would even just have one handy to fiddle with while you do other things. I even used to get my students to practice palming the pick while I gave instructions.

As with anything, it is advisable to start with good habits/posture than it is to correct them later. There is so much info available now, that this should be easy to do.

[johnchop]

Step 1: Be a teenager

[MAJUSCULE]

I've had my brother's bass for the past few years and was forced into getting it together for a few tunes on a duo gig a little while back.

 

Decided to finally pick up guitar over the pandemic, bought an old Kay archtop on sale (Sears guitar) and picked up a used Squier Jaguar a couple months later. Like Piktor said, if you have them out, it's easy to pick them up and mess around. Important as far as building up callouses too.

 

I'm not making huge progress all the time but I've enjoyed being able to play 90% of guitar songs after learning G, A, C, D, and E.

[GovernorSilver]

Grandma gave me a toy melodica when I was 4 or 5, with color-coded keys and color coded music book. My uncles started giving me piano lessons when I was 6 or 7. So I started out as a keys player, albeit not a very good one as I wasn't consistent with my practice.

 

When I was a first-year college student, I had a roommate who had an acoustic guitar. I attempted to keep up my piano practice in the community college piano practice rooms, but the guitar lying around in the apartment was more convenient to access. My roommate taught me some easy Beatles songs to get me started - no chord-melody arrangements like that - just the chords for the songs so I could strum them. Later I bought a cheap classical guitar and worked with Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer for a bit. Then I bought my first electric guitar. The store offered music lessons, so I signed up with a guitar teacher there. I told him I wanted to learn jazz, because by that time I'd become a fan of Pat Metheny. The teacher taught me the basics of chord construction and 3-note per string scale exercises. He admitted he was more of a rock player and what he knew about jazz he had picked up from studying at GIT - today known as Musicians Institute.

 

I then transferred out of the community college system to UCSD, a four-year university. It was there that I found the UCSD jazz guitar class taught by Bob Boss, who became my 2nd teacher. The difference between Bob's playing and my first guitar teacher's was night and day, and it wasn't just the big "jazz box" guitar that Bob played. There was a sound and feeling of authenticity in his playing that was missing from the other teacher's. He had me audition for the class by showing him I could play the C major scale in two octaves. I found out later that I got into the class because one of the 5 students had transferred to another 4-year university, thus opening up a spot for me. Bob's teaching was very different than the other guitar teacher's. Other teacher led me to believe that all I need to play jazz is to learn enough scale exercises and some chord grips Bob was more about learning Charlie Christian solos, learning stuff by ear, learning tunes. Much more emphasis on ear training, time, and reading music. He is the one who introduced me to the music of Allan Holdsworth and Bill Frisell. Both unique players who did stuff with guitar that I never heard of before, and blew my mind.

 

After graduation, I got a little lost with life, got rid of my guitars, tried other instruments, moved around, and stopped playing music altogether.

 

After I moved to the DC area, I got a bass and joined a post-rock band as a bassist. Shortly after I was asked to switch to rhythm guitar so that someone else could join as bassist. So I started buying guitars again and buying courses from TrueFire.

 

My biggest improvement was when I was stuck at home on medical leave after an operation to fix my retinal detachment. Part of the recovery process was maintaining face-down position as much as possible, for almost 2 months. Guitar was the only instrument I could play comfortably - or I should with least amount of discomfort - while maintaining the face-down position. Since I had nothing to do all day, I learned chord-melody arrangements from the Barry Galbraith Guitar Solos Vol. 1 book - Alone Again, For All We Know, etc. It was rough going at first. It would take me about an hour to learn just 4 bars out of the tune. But again, I had nothing else to do all day. By the time my medical leave was over, I could play 4 chord-melody arrangements from memory and improved music reading by playing out of a book of Bach cello suites.

[zxcvbnm098]

If you're a natural left handed player, I would recommend you play left handed.

 

I'm a lefty guitar player, and to me it makes easier sense with my right hand being on both the fretboard and the top (and more used) upper section of the keyboard. But given you are coming at this later in life, I would think playing the way you naturally gravitate miming guitar would ease the process.

[johnchop]

Definitely trying to get a list of tunes together, on top of drilling scales and switching chord fingering.

 

Might snag a teacher for a little while who can interrupt potential bad habits.

[Docbop]

I'm the reverse played guitar/bass for 60+ years and now finally learning piano. Also lefty who plays right handed and never been an issue. For me the biggest transition was chording which was always my main thing. Guitar and it crazy matrix of notes really controls how you voicing things and why guitar uses so many drop 2 voicings. Guitar close voicings are a PIA due to the string layout. Such fun on piano now I can play lots of close voicings. Also guitar to me close interval don't sound quite right, but on piano they do. One thing you deal with on guitar you don't on piano is timbre of notes. Piano each note there is only one, but on guitar there are multiple locations for the same note. Issue the differ location have a different timbre and there is a sweet area of the neck to try and play single note lines. But viewing music from to instrument is good.

[Mike Davis]

I would find a teacher and a guitar with an easy action.

[drawback]

I began at the piano at the age of 4 and could play almost everything I heard on the radio by the time I was 12 when my friends and I started a band the week after the Beatles were on Ed Sullivan. We realized fairly soon that if we were going to play in public, there wouldn't be a piano. So my cousin gave me his old Silvertone (Danlelectro) and I learned to play it by watching the other guys in the band play. As soon as I worked out the barre chord grip, the world opened, I'll tell you! Playing guitar has made things immeasurably easier throughout my career. Many times if I'd joined a new band "cold" I'd just ask the guitarist to lean the neck toward me and I could see the key and what chord he was playing or setting up for. Good luck!

[Bill H.]

Many times if I'd joined a new band "cold" I'd just ask the guitarist to lean the neck toward me and I could see the key and what chord he was playing or setting up for. Good luck!

 

I've done this before too! The most striking was when I joined a country outfit. The leader hated to rehearse, and just assumed everyone knew these country songs. I asked for the guitar player to set up next to me (which wasn't usual - we were usually on opposite sides of the stage) just so I could see his fretboard better.

 

I think how you learn depends on what you want to do with it. My primary purpose was to play rhythm guitar on songs where there were no keys. I didn't need lessons or instruction books for that. I just practiced barre chording, and had the guitar player show me anything else I needed to know for specific songs.

 

If you want to do more than that, instructions might be helpful. But since you're already a keyboard player, there's a lot you can pick up on your own.

[stoken6]

If you've got reasonable music theory, guitar is fairly easy to learn. I taught myself to an extent, but could never master using a pick (I can do some fingerstyle stuff). I then picked up a bass, and made friends with that much more easily.

 

Cheers, Mike.

[johnchop]

Yes enough theory to get far down the road, so I'm referring more to technique and approaching the fretboard conceptually i.e. not pianistically, so there's no "piano translation" mental layer getting in the way of execution.

 

So... practice.

 

No problems playing right-handed yet. If anything, my stronger left hand makes it relatively easier to fret. Regardless, will look for a light action to start.

[Iconoclast]

Keyboards since childhood, learned guitar in my 30s. I've played lead guitar in many bands so I'm a credible guitar player.

 

Guitar definitely has more of a beginners hump to get over than keys so don't quit early! You gotta build some strength and some callouses but once you learn your cowboy Chords (C, D, E, A. The hard one is F!) you can basically play almost anything. Then once you can get a bar chord in maj and min you're off to the races.

 

Keys are easier for beginners, harder to master. Guitar is hard for beginners, but easier to master.

 

In some bands, I've even switched back and forth, which was a bit of a brain cramp at first. There is something about changing gears between the two instruments that used to take a couple minutes, but I've gotten pretty natural at it now.

[Song80s]

In addition to keys , I played guitar + keys in my teens/20's in rock bands.

 

I can play most guitar parts on my Kronos, and routinely do so.

This includes strums and basic lead parts.

 

IOW, I have the guitar basics covered.

 

The big diff is aggressive guitar lead parts. Or lots of specialized soloing.

 

I can't adequately touch or duplicate signature guitar soloing.

 

FWIW, I don't the guitar chops to play them, either.

 

I can get by with my approach, 100% on keys.

[GovernorSilver]

Yes enough theory to get far down the road, so I'm referring more to technique and approaching the fretboard conceptually i.e. not pianistically, so there's no "piano translation" mental layer getting in the way of execution.

 

So... practice.

 

No problems playing right-handed yet. If anything, my stronger left hand makes it relatively easier to fret. Regardless, will look for a light action to start.

 

For approaching the fretboard, learn the major triad in sets of 3 strings. For example, root triad and inversions of G major on the GBE strings. Only 3 inversions to learn in one octave. Repeat on the DGB, ADG, and EAD strings.

 

Repeat for minor triad in the key of your choice.

 

Some teachers want you to work all 12 keys but all 12 keys in one sitting may be impractical. I think if you just rotate your chosen major and minor triad keys from practice to practice you'll be fine.

 

Professional guitarists have consistently noted this type of practice opens the fretboard for them - both for rhythm and lead playing.

[Stokely]

I have found guitar difficult. I deeply regret not making more of my attempts to learn it, as I'd LOVE to be a (rhythm) guitar hero, I love guitar-oriented music and being able to do both would be very useful. It's never too late and I'm still at it, but the older I get the tougher it is.

 

I think it's the 2-d nature of the fretboard that gives me trouble, that and the B and E high strings being different from the rest as far as intervals...I mean, WTF? Piano is "1 D" in the sense that you go up, you go down My brain has issues with going up, yet going down perhaps in pitch because you are also going over....

 

Dealing with muting has been tough. I remember asking our guitarist about a song I was learning where it was hard to mute with either hand due to the chord and riff, but you couldn't hit the top two strings. I asked, "how do you mute those strings?" He looks at me oddly and says "I just don't hit them." Yeah, playing for decades will do that, a lot of us are like that on keys where we can do inversions and passing notes without thinking, but a beginning keyboardist would have major issues....

 

That said, I made a lot of progress with chords just by playing them, a LOT. I still can't do any "in between" riffs but I'm pretty decent with cowboy chords and bar chords and my right hand isn't half bad with strumming. Progress was slow, it wasn't like I could really see it from week to week, but over time I could look back and say "wow, I couldn't even switch between those chords four months ago..."

[johnchop]

Stokley, BINGO. Exactly where my brain is, but you've encouraged me to work at it!

 

GovSilver: cool. Will give that a shot!

[MAJUSCULE]

I find it helps a lot to think in terms of the circle of fifths instead of the linear approach of piano. Moving chord shapes around is more similar to the button side of an accordion.

[Lou Gehrig Charles]

I have found guitar difficult.

 

I have found it impossible! My fingers don't fit on the fretboard; I touch too many adjacent strings that are supposed to be played open.

[GovernorSilver]

 

Dealing with muting has been tough. I remember asking our guitarist about a song I was learning where it was hard to mute with either hand due to the chord and riff, but you couldn't hit the top two strings. I asked, "how do you mute those strings?" He looks at me oddly and says "I just don't hit them." Yeah, playing for decades will do that, a lot of us are like that on keys where we can do inversions and passing notes without thinking, but a beginning keyboardist would have major issues....

 

What a kidder!

 

Most of the time I use my index finger to mute the top strings, palm to mute the lower ones.

 

Over time, guitarists who consistently analyze their own playing eventually figure out various strategies for muting, like switching between muting fingers, using the tip of a finger to mute the string below that finger, etc. Some will just go ahead and buy FretWraps or steal their lady's scrunchies and use those to help mute open strings. Actually, in one of the FretWraps ads, there's a bass player mentioning that very thing. I bought a set of FretWraps but haven't opened it yet - it was those 2 months of doing nothing but playing guitar all day, every day that upped my muting game.

 

https://gruvgear.com/products/fretwraps

[Threadslayer]

I've played both since I was a little kid and have applied the knowledge gained on one to the other back and forth often over the years. One difference that I have noticed in my experience is that the man-instrument interface is much more physical on the guitar than it is on keyboard. When I pick up a guitar, muscle memory just kicks in and I don't really have to look at the neck at all before I start playing, whereas with piano, I have to at least check what octave I'm in to get oriented. That's probably of zero help to the OP, but I can see where it might be a hurdle to overcome for someone switching from a lifetime of piano to a guitar.

[RABid]

I started piano when I was young, drums in high school, trumpet and sax my senior year of high school, acoustic guitar in college, synth after that, and electric guitar after synth. Electric guitar and sax had a huge affect on my synth leads. Those two instruments were so expressive. I pushed my synth leads to be just as expressive using every trick I could come up with. It really paid off. When I was full time on keyboards I made a living covering flute, sax and even guitar solos on analog synths. When you experience the joy of bending a note while altering feedback on an electric guitar, you want to take that to your keyboards. It pushes you to demand more control over your synth leads.

[TyPie]

I've been a keys-only player all my life (40+ years), and never really had the bandwidth for a second instrument until now.

 

Drums, bass, and guitar have all been attractive, but I've landed on guitar, since that's the biggest "pull". I've started/stopped guitar practice and lessons at least three times in my life. Now's the time to make significant headway.

 

Guitar definitely requires rewiring my older brain, as there's an additional axis of control and as well as totally different hand coordination. (I'm a lefty, too, so my "air guitar" instinct is to strum with the left hand, although I manage well enough with the right.)

 

For the moment I'm working through a method book with a small guitar but will audition beginner acoustics soon.

 

For anyone else who has made this same leap, what was your path?

 

 

Johnchop,

 

I am going in the opposite direction. Too funny! Is the grass really greener over there?

A lot of years here on both guitar and trumpet, looking to develop some fundamental keyboard skills. I lurk on here often, as I have a degree in music, a workstation, and less-than-squat piano chops. Plus, I am always interested in what is going on in the world of keyboards, synthesis, music tech, plug-ins, etc. Thanks to step sequencing and the ability to slow down tempo (a LOT), I am usually able to plunk out decent progressions & voicings. Just trying to get the time it takes down from maybe 3 months or so to a couple of weeks for one complete progression......lol. I have the theory - I can see complex chords and inversions, with extensions on the keys. But actually PLAYING them, in time, is a whole nuther story.

 

Here' my suggestions for guitar, in somewhat of a high level overview of 'areas', in a workable order of study:

 

Did I mention callouses yet? (John Lennon's quote, "I got blisters on my fingers" was yelled out for a reason-----agony!).

 

1.) The 'open' chords (cowboy chords), the triads at the nut of the guitar: Maj, min, dim, aug, dom7. While you're in this area on the neck of the guitar, learn the E and A Blues scales in this position - it will make practicing a lot more fun (if you ask me).

Start learning the accessible Major scales in this area of the neck: E, F, G, A, B, C, D. (I suspect your lesson book is centered around this area of the neck.)

2.) 'Barre' chords plus 'Power' chords: There are 3 main 'groups'. The foundation of rock & pop. (Getting this far, you'll be able to adequately get up on stage and play TONS of stuff)

3.) The 'C-A-G-E-D' system of 'guitar theory', with chords (& scales) based on the chord shapes, C, A, G, E, & D chords & their derivatives min, min7, min7(-5), dom7, dim, aug, etc,

4.) Pentatonic Major, Pentatonic Minor & Blues scales, arpeggios.

5.) 7th Chords: Maj7, min7, min7(-5), min(7#5), dim7, dom7, dom7(-5), then, add / substitute available 'extensions' (2nds, 9ths, #9, 11, b13, 13, altered).

6.) Scales: Learn the Major, Minor scales in the 5 positions (C-A-G-E-D) with roots on the lower 2 strings. (Note: there are more positions / more 'forms' of the Major scale, 2-string, 3-string, etc.,& others especially if you have big hands and long fingers.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While studying any of these areas, dedicate time to play familiar melodies or phrases in different keys / different positions. Name the notes as you play them.

While studying the more 'advanced' chords:

6.) Pentatonic Maj, Pentatonic Min, & Blues scales in all positions (If you know these and can get around within them, you can play a TON of solos all over the neck.)

7.) The Modes - modal progressions, scales and where / when to use them.

 

Sorry - I'm getting carried away!

Not sure how much theory you have, but there is a whole lot of stuff here. (Lifetime journey if you want to really dig in.). You can do a lot with just the open chords. If you get thru #4 above, you can really do a lot of things with a guitar.

 

Good luck - hope this helps!

[El Lobo]

Playing guitar has made things immeasurably easier throughout my career. Many times if I'd joined a new band "cold" I'd just ask the guitarist to lean the neck toward me and I could see the key and what chord he was playing or setting up for. Good luck!

I've done this before too! The most striking was when I joined a country outfit. The leader hated to rehearse, and just assumed everyone knew these country songs. I asked for the guitar player to set up next to me (which wasn't usual - we were usually on opposite sides of the stage) just so I could see his fretboard better.

I started playing guitar when I was young. Then I played sax and rhythm guitar in rock bands in high school and college. I didn't start playing keys in bands until late in life. I haven't played guitar in years, but knowing how to play guitar has been an immeasurable help. I always want to set up stage right with the guitarist over on the left so I can see his fretting hand. I can read the guitar hand instantly and know what chord, what key, timing of changes, etc. It really helps if I lose my place in a tune, and playing in jams. The only problem comes with left-handed guitarists. Up until jams stopped with covid, I played a lot in the house band with a friend who's a lefty. I asked him to turn towards me with the neck pointed in towards the drummer, or stand near me stage right and turn towards me so I could read his fretting hand. It's backwards but I can still read it, especially for knowing when he's changing or riffing or soloing. It's a basic skill that's come in handy many times.

[harmonizer]

For me the main problem with guitar is I don't have the technique (or calluses) to get the strings pressed down cleanly on the fret board. I can do the fingering for 8 or 9 chords, but none of them are ever going to sound good without solving this problem. I am already challenged enough with keeping my sax chops in shape, and being able to play keyboard parts on certain songs that our covers band plays (I don't really consider myself a true keyboard player, but as someone who has trained himself to play some useful keyboard parts needed by our band). I'm pretty sure I am never going to be able to invest the time that would be needed to create usable guitar chord sounds.

[Baldwin Funster]

Guitar isn't really that mental, at least not at first. That's why some dudes that seem unedicated get pretty good at it. It is a physical thing. Can an old dude become a body builder? Some do. So I'm not shooting you down. But that is the first wall you will face. I've played guitar since 1978, 1969 if you count my first lesson. It didnt go well. I've played keys since 2006. I've had to rewire my brain in the opposite direction that you (the OP) are. I'd start with jamming along with blues vids and backing tracks on YouTube. There are plenty of vids on how to play m7 and dom9 chords. Thats all you need for the first 10 years.

[The Real MC]

For me the main problem with guitar is I don't have the technique (or calluses) to get the strings pressed down cleanly on the fret board.

 

12 string acoustics are very good for building calluses.

[johnchop]

Great feedback, all. Appreciate the encouragement.

 

TyPie... that is a great roadmap!

 

I think I can, I think I can ....