Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[MotiDave]

helps alot, thanks Math.

[Doug Robinson]

MotiDave--I use a small mixer (unpowered) when I need to send a signal to FOH. So far I've just sent stereo, though.

[DanL]

For most gigs where my band uses our own PA and it's in mono, I send a mono signal to the house- the monitor send from my mixer. Then stereo out to either my in ears or the SS3.

 

I can also send stereo out via DI's in my rack if the room can handle stereo.

[Tombsalley]

I can also send stereo out via DI's in my rack if the room can handle stereo.

 

But, with the SS now every room can handle stereo!

(Sorry couldn't resist)

[garnermike]

I've used my SK1 with a SS (v.2 or v.3) likely more than anyone anywhere. My experience with Aspen's creations tells me that they are more than "just amps."

 

I've played mono/stereo through single/dual Behringers, Motion Sounds, Peaveys, Rolands, and Traynors. I've played strictly through FOH. I've played stereo through dual active speakers. None of these amps or set-ups, in either mono or stereo set-ups, have produced the room-filling, ethereal, "where-is-it-coming-from?" stereo effect and ear presence that I hear from a SS.

 

Yes, IMO, for venues beyond the small, it needs to be linked with a sub-woofer or bass amp or FOH to get additional grunt, low-end, and volume. So, it ain't the "be all and end all." But, it's closer to it than anything I've played through thus far.

 

For the doubters, I'll just suggest that you buy one or borrow one, play through it (and get your audience's reactions to it), or have someone else play through it as your walk around the room. If you do that, I think you'll end up agreeing that it's not "just an amp."

 

 

[DanL]

I can also send stereo out via DI's in my rack if the room can handle stereo.

 

But, with the SS now every room can handle stereo!

(Sorry couldn't resist)

 

True, true! but the SS can't handle every room by itself!

[MotiDave]

Thanks guys, great info and advice.

 

Two last questions and I'm picking up the phone:

 

1. if you're driving a sub with the mono out AND also sending to FOH ... you _______?

 

- send the ssv3 mono out to the sub and your mixer out to FOH, or ?

- what other creative signal path solutions have you guys devised? (seriously, you guys are so fricken clever, I learn something every day here - really appreciate this forum's existence!)

 

2. For smaller venues without FOH, or more likely for rehearsals, does the SSV3 drive enough rocking volume for rock n roll bands. Bands like, oh, to randomly list bands I currently play in: Bon Jovi, Cars, UFO, David Bowie, Foreigner ... bands with loud bass players, guitarists (I know, loud and guitarist is redundant) and drummers raised by wild animals? we like to rock, not sure if other ssV3'ers have similary loud rock needs as me?

[Alan Steinberger]

Thanks guys, great info and advice.

 

Two last questions and I'm picking up the phone:

 

1. if you're driving a sub with the mono out AND also sending to FOH ... you _______?

 

- send the ssv3 mono out to the sub and your mixer out to FOH, or ?

- what other creative signal path solutions have you guys devised? (seriously, you guys are so fricken clever, I learn something every day here - really appreciate this forum's existence!)

 

2. For smaller venues without FOH, or more likely for rehearsals, does the SSV3 drive enough rocking volume for rock n roll bands. Bands like, oh, to randomly list bands I currently play in: Bon Jovi, Cars, UFO, David Bowie, Foreigner ... bands with loud bass players, guitarists (I know, loud and guitarist is redundant) and drummers raised by wild animals? we like to rock, not sure if other ssV3'ers have similary loud rock needs as me?

 

1. Plug the SSv3 ¼" mono output into a direct box. Plug the pass thru output of the direct box into the sub input. (This is assuming mono FOH.)

 

2. You may possibly not have enough volume, however the keys will take advantage of less-cluttered sonic spectrum off to the sides of the sound field.

[Doug Robinson]

"1. if you're driving a sub with the mono out AND also sending to FOH ... you _______?

 

- send the ssv3 mono out to the sub and your mixer out to FOH, or ? "

 

 

That's how I would do it.

 

 

The second question, the volume one--that's subjective. It's enough volume for me in rehearsals and every venue so far. I play in two groups regularly right now, a New Orleans r n b band and a blues group. Our drummer hits hard (same cat for both groups) and our guitarist aren't shy either. I've only needed to turn down, not up in rehearsals.

 

 

[MotiDave]

not having enough volume ... that sounds like it should be a fundamental problem for my particular need? an "amp" that isn't loud enough for the band?

[MathOfInsects]

Sub out to Sub, mixer to FOH.

 

Before making that call, I really urge you to consider whether what you really need is *any keyboard monitor, rather than this particular one. If you're not running patches that require stereo, you will be at a great disadvantage using this amp in the contexts you're describing. Here's why:

 

--with this amp, a mono signal only pumps through the front-firing 8-inch speaker. It's a fine little speaker, but an 8-inch front-firing speaker is not the best option out there for keyboard monitoring in loud (or most) situations. It would be underpowered, too directional, and (IMO) too mid/hi for, say, those Bon Jovi patches.

 

--the "where is it coming from" thing is the result of stereo patches being sent L and R to the amp, which then sends only the differences in the two signals to a side-firing speaker. With stereo patches, this multiplies the power, but most important, it also sends a new set of sounds bouncing around the room and making the illusion of a stereo (really binaural) field. THAT's what helps you compete with the guitar/drums/adnoidal college chick on her cell phone. But this amp does not turn mono patches stereo. You only get that effect with patches have differences between the L and R signals.

 

So if what you really want is to go loudness for loudness against a marshall half, and your patches are mostly mono (or you don't really care if they're stereo or not), I'd strongly suggest a powered speaker and a line out to the board rather than this cool but idiosyncratic box.

 

The SS3 is really for someone whose stage presence requires or is greatly augmented by a better representation of the stereo field that their patches are built around.

 

 

[Doug Robinson]

I have to agree with that--if you aren't playing stereo sounds, why use a stereo amp? I take it for granted that most of us like stereo rhodes, wurly, piano and organ/leslie patches but for those running a mono sound then a powered monitor is probably a better solution.

 

 

"not having enough volume ... that sounds like it should be a fundamental problem for my particular need? an "amp" that isn't loud enough for the band?"

 

MotiDave--San Diego guy here myself, Crawford High Class of '73 You are always going to find a situation where an amp isn't loud enough--even a Marshal stack does through the P.A. at a big enough arena, right? But if you look at the actual reviews written by people using the SS3 in the field, you won't find too many comments like "It just wasn't loud enough for my band." There might be a few, but who can say how loud the bands were? On the other hand, you will see many comments from users who have been surprised at how loud and clear it has proven to be, right? at some point, you will need to go hear one of these for yourself and better yet, play through it. I think the chances are pretty good that you'll walk away saying "That would work for me" unless you're in an extremely loud thrash metal band that doesn't ever use a P.A.

 

I played in a 400 seat theater (350 seats occupied) last month. Not terribly deep, more high--two balconies. Everything went through the P.A. but I didn't want to--my rig sounded excellent and organic onstage. The soundman insisted as they were taking a feed off the board for a video crew but I had him keep it low in the room. There were as many as 14 musicians onstage, everything from vocalists to mic'd blues harmonica, a fully mic'd drum set, mic'd guitar amps, bass amp going into the P.A., acoustic piano, congas and timbales. Blues, latin jazz, funk and some rock.

 

I wish it would have been possible to go 100% P.A. free with my rig. It didn't hurt the sound to go through the P.A. but I liked it better without it.

[MotiDave]

Jazzoooo, my SD brother - Kearny '79 here, living in north county. I almost never play gigs that my only sound is my stasge monitor. I actually cannot remember the last, i ALWAYS run to the PA, whether its a pro FOH venue or just a PA we brought in for a show. My local gigs are usually at places like HOB, Belly Up, Brick by Brick, etc ... even if we do a fun lil gig at Tios, I run to the house sound. At Belly Up and HOB, I don't even bring a stage amp as they can give me my own monitor channel, I only need a stage monitor for smaller venues (with house sound) that only have one or two monitor channels on their board - they can't give me my own dedicated channel.

 

And for rehearsals though even then I could run to the PA. But if I were 19 again and in a garage band, I'd want my stage monitor to be able to carry me alone.

 

As to need for mono, I'm not overly sold its mandatory, but if it enhances my sound, i'm cool taking the next step. I have run mono for ... forever, I have never had anything but a mono stage amp, whether the old amp+cabinet, or all-in-one keyboard amp. my current is a KC550, which sounds like butt imo. I haven't worried as I always run FOH.

 

For my synth stuff, it doesn't matter, its mainly AP voices that sound a bit off in mono, they were designed as stereo but how the L/R cancel ... beats me. even mono voices, when adding effects they can sound "linear" - lacking warmth or depth compared to what I hear in headphones when practicing at home.

 

Has anyone had the MotionSound, able to compare to SSv3? It seems more a straight stereo, not the cool-sounding technology Aspen describes in his ssv3 video. but its 500w, dual 12" with 4 cones ... ymmv and all that ...

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/KP500SN/

 

and its got wheels

[MotiDave]

I didn't see you say what your stage monitor solution was/is - an ssv3 or something else?

[garnermike]

MotiDave: re: your first question, what I just do is, in standard fashion, run a cable from the SSv.3's sub-woof OUT to the sub-woofer, and then run a cable from my sub-woofer's line/direct out to FOH.

 

I have NEVER been in a position (over 300 gigs) of not having my SS-amped keys being loud enough --- as long as I can opt to use the sub-woof link (to either FOH or a powered sub-woofer).

 

I play in a very loud reggae/rockabilly band (and we throw a few classic rock tunes in to boot). We are more often than not asked to turn our volumes down, not up.

[Doug Robinson]

Ah, well that explains it, Dave. By the way--born and raised in the College area (4945 Art Street!) and then 7 or 8 years in rancho Santa Fe and then Hidden Meadows, north of Escondido. Do you ever play with drummer Duncan Moore, sax player Tripp Sprague or his brother Peter?

 

I hate most club sound systems, and it's only uniquely-talented soundmen that I truly appreciate. I like to be in control of my sound, period. It's like the days of gigging with my friend's B3 and Leslie--I really didn't need anyone else to make my instrument sound awesome. Going through FOH is usually just about volume, not tone quality imo. I mean, that's really pretty logical--most clubs run different bands all week long, sometimes a few in one night--how can a sound guy care that much about getting your sound just right beyond making it loud enough? And how can you really hear what he's doing to your sound?

 

Anyway, when I play most of the time I use the SS3 as my onstage monitor as well as for the audience. I've already told the story of my recent outdoor gig where I was the only one not in the P.A. and it was perfect. Then again, I think bands generally rely too much on P.A.s these days, driving volume higher and higher when it isn't always necessary. I saw Jonatha Brooke at Belly Up 15 years ago, and even on a song with just two acoustic guitars with pickups, vocals, a bg singer and a kick drum, it was ridiculously loud and screechy so I stood in front of the club and decided not to go back in.

 

If you've never played stereo instruments through a stereo setup I can see why you'd be a bit blasé about it, but I had the experience once of setting up through two Bose towers once and holy moly--did my keys sound beautiful after years of going through a mono amp. From that moment on, I tried Motion Sound amps, Fender P.A.s, two Rolands, etc. Of all of those experiments the Fender P.A.s worked best for me until now.

 

I didn't dig the Motion Sound amps, personally. Didn't really sound like stereo to me.

[Doug Robinson]

One last thing--it's funny that you mention Tio's--I had a friend who used to play with Buddy Blue there, everything run through the house. It was ridiculously loud, hated going to hear them.

 

In some ways, it is similar to the acoustic piano question--you have people comparing different samples, with often strong opinions--but if you ask them the last time they actually played an acoustic grand they might not even remember.

 

I think bands have forgotten how great they can sound without a giant P.A. system. of course, there are venues and genres that depend on super loud volume, but it certainly isn't 100% of the stuff we hear today. I played a gig the other night where the lead guitar amp was mic'd and run thorough the P.A., as if a Fender twin isn't loud enough to fill a room with 100 people. Sheesh. So of course, the bassist runs his amp into the P.A. to keep up and then the drummer needs a little fill as well...yikes. Suddenly you have a decent band that actually knows how to control it's own dynamics, all at the mercy of the incompetent sound guy who isn't even paying attention.

[garnermike]

[Has anyone had the MotionSound, able to compare to SSv3? It seems more a straight stereo, not the cool-sounding technology Aspen describes in his ssv3 video. but its 500w, dual 12" with 4 cones ... ymmv and all that ...]

 

 

Moti:

Since you asked......

Despite being a true believer in Aspen's units (I owned/used the SS.v.2 for years), I got a brand new Motion Sound 500sn in early January. Played it at 4 gigs and returned it, then bought an SSv.3.

Let's just say that the 500sn was not all that loud (for a 250w x 2 amp), that its SFX effect didn't do it for me at all, it was bigger/heavier, and the total stereo effect didn't compare to even the earlier-generational SSv.2's. Just sayin'.....

[MotiDave]

thanks guys!

 

Jazzooo - Aztec alum here, my grandma lived/mom grew up about 2 blocks from campus on Mary Lane Drive, off of 55th.

 

my wife is close friends with Tio's owners. we do an occasional show there for kicks, alot of my ol pals still live around the area from Clairmont south towards the valley. I always have a fun time there. Sound guy there usually sucks, and they cut him loose after he "dials" (cough) the band in after about 4 songs to save money.

 

never played with Buddy, no. here's an obscure fun fact, my ol 80s band Insex lead singer/rhythm guitarist Brad Engstrom stayed in music and worked as a house sound engineer, he was top engineer at Winston's and then Belly Up for years. he makes bands sound phenomenal, even lousy bands. One night English Beat came thru and Dave W loved his sound skills so much he hired him on the spot to tour with the band. He's been touring with EB for 2+ yrs now.

 

I was in college in the 80s, almost flunked out due to my deviant musician pals, so I got out of the scene entirely. Restarted about 5 yrs ago, music is a hobby for me, I make alot at my day job and wife has no interest in living in a van. but I'm blessed that I know a ton of local top notch pros, some had been signed, others should have been. and they know very very few keyboardists . I get to play with some really quality projects for kicks.

[spazzkey]

Thanks guys, great info and advice.

 

Two last questions and I'm picking up the phone:

 

1. if you're driving a sub with the mono out AND also sending to FOH ... you _______?

 

- send the ssv3 mono out to the sub and your mixer out to FOH, or ?

- what other creative signal path solutions have you guys devised? (seriously, you guys are so fricken clever, I learn something every day here - really appreciate this forum's existence!)

 

2. For smaller venues without FOH, or more likely for rehearsals, does the SSV3 drive enough rocking volume for rock n roll bands. Bands like, oh, to randomly list bands I currently play in: Bon Jovi, Cars, UFO, David Bowie, Foreigner ... bands with loud bass players, guitarists (I know, loud and guitarist is redundant) and drummers raised by wild animals? we like to rock, not sure if other ssV3'ers have similary loud rock needs as me?

 

I've run straight out of the SS sub out to FOH as well as stereo off my mixer when using two keyboards and my sub... will be trying the XLR out on my sub to FOH some time soon... curious to see how the FOH compares mono to stereo with the SS...

 

re loudness - the dead tribute band I play in likes it really loud... even without the sub my SS can be painfully loud - and with the sub no contest... I've been asked to turn it down, don't think I've ever turned it up beyond 2, 12 being at the top and 5 max...

 

 

[spazzkey]

Sub out to Sub, mixer to FOH.

 

Before making that call, I really urge you to consider whether what you really need is *any keyboard monitor, rather than this particular one. If you're not running patches that require stereo, you will be at a great disadvantage using this amp in the contexts you're describing. Here's why:

 

--with this amp, a mono signal only pumps through the front-firing 8-inch speaker. It's a fine little speaker, but an 8-inch front-firing speaker is not the best option out there for keyboard monitoring in loud (or most) situations. It would be underpowered, too directional, and (IMO) too mid/hi for, say, those Bon Jovi patches.

 

--the "where is it coming from" thing is the result of stereo patches being sent L and R to the amp, which then sends only the differences in the two signals to a side-firing speaker. With stereo patches, this multiplies the power, but most important, it also sends a new set of sounds bouncing around the room and making the illusion of a stereo (really binaural) field. THAT's what helps you compete with the guitar/drums/adnoidal college chick on her cell phone. But this amp does not turn mono patches stereo. You only get that effect with patches have differences between the L and R signals.

 

So if what you really want is to go loudness for loudness against a marshall half, and your patches are mostly mono (or you don't really care if they're stereo or not), I'd strongly suggest a powered speaker and a line out to the board rather than this cool but idiosyncratic box.

 

The SS3 is really for someone whose stage presence requires or is greatly augmented by a better representation of the stereo field that their patches are built around.

 

 

you are of course totally correct and as Aspen has commented before, adding just a bit of effects makes any mono patch come completely alive - this has certainly been my experience - I'd say the SS puts the whole stereo vs mono discussion to rest, certainly in regards to stage sound...

[MathOfInsects]

I may be alone in this, or at the very least it may just be a YMMV thing, but: among all the attributes of the SS3, the aspect I find least compelling is the quality (sonic, not build) of the sound out of the 8-inch front speaker alone. I find it too mid-hi biased, no matter the eq adjustments...right up until the point where I EQ all the sparkle and loudness out of it, and then I find it flat and flimsy.

 

I think that's partially why people are saying they don't have trouble being heard through loud bands: it's a range that cuts well. BUT...I also think that relying on that front-firing speaker as your stage monitor or FOH sound--without the benefit of the those whirling side-firing offsets--requires compromising your sound in ways you don't need to.

 

As a stereo-enhancing box, it's stellar. And I agree that throwing a little bit of water on a mono sound *does draw life out of that sound through the box, sometimes to stunning effect.

 

But if someone is mostly throwing in mono, I would still suggest that they consider another monitor option.

[Morrissey]

Long time lurker. My thanks to the great advice and info from active forumites.

 

A few posts in this thread mention that Fender used the SS technology in their Acoustasonic SFX guitar and keyboard amps a few (10-15?) years ago. Does anyone know how far along the technology was in those Fender amps? In other words, I know the SS3 is the gold standard, but are those Fender SFX amps quality early iterations worth buying or are they somehow deficient (e.g., perhaps Fender licensed the SS technology but incorporated "improvements" which actually compromised the SS virtues).

[HammondDave]

Before making that call, I really urge you to consider whether what you really need is *any keyboard monitor, rather than this particular one. If you're not running patches that require stereo, you will be at a great disadvantage using this amp in the contexts you're describing. Here's why:

 

--with this amp, a mono signal only pumps through the front-firing 8-inch speaker. It's a fine little speaker, but an 8-inch front-firing speaker is not the best option out there for keyboard monitoring in loud (or most) situations. It would be underpowered, too directional, and (IMO) too mid/hi for, say, those Bon Jovi patches.

 

--the "where is it coming from" thing is the result of stereo patches being sent L and R to the amp, which then sends only the differences in the two signals to a side-firing speaker. With stereo patches, this multiplies the power, but most important, it also sends a new set of sounds bouncing around the room and making the illusion of a stereo (really binaural) field. THAT's what helps you compete with the guitar/drums/adnoidal college chick on her cell phone. But this amp does not turn mono patches stereo. You only get that effect with patches have differences between the L and R signals.

 

So if what you really want is to go loudness for loudness against a marshall half, and your patches are mostly mono (or you don't really care if they're stereo or not), I'd strongly suggest a powered speaker and a line out to the board rather than this cool but idiosyncratic box.

 

The SS3 is really for someone whose stage presence requires or is greatly augmented by a better representation of the stereo field that their patches are built around.

 

A great post and great advice. For those musicians who like to run stereo patches, then the SS3 may just be the ticket!

 

Most of my patches are mono. I would hate to do battle with a Twin or Marshall with one 8" speaker, especially with Hammond sounds that require a robust bottom end.

 

The key is to identify how you play, where you play, and what type of patches you use. That should lead you to either the SS3 or a more conventional powered monitor solution.

[Raymb1]

Since the beginning, the SS has been touted for small to medium gigs and not for loud blues or rock bands. For most of my gigs the SS is perfect for the stage and audience. For large venues I use the SS for a stage monitor and run through FOH QSCs. For all my jazz gigs the SS is great and once others hear it they want one also. The bassist I worked with this last weekend was so impressed with the sound that he wanted to buy one for his bass (string bass).

[mak1457]

Having never experienced anything but my SS, I have no idea how to compare it with other systems. But I'm (slowly but surely) starting to get some positive feedback with mine. The sound reproduction is convincingly similar to a vintage B3

 

My only complaint is that since I'm sitting five feet away from a piano, I hear that better than my board. But I suppose that's a mute point since everyone else hears it just fine. I guess I'm a little jealous of their vantage point.

[mak1457]

So, if you're using the SS as a stage monitor, then is it ok to be sitting right next to it, that is, if you don't need to hear the stereo effect? I'm wondering if I need to position myself closer to it so I can hear myself better.

[Doug Robinson]

Even when I'm using it as a monitor, I still prefer to have it five or 6 feet away. If it isn't loud enough for me to hear it from that distance, neither will the other musicians. I think, and I'm probably just kidding myself but what the heck, other musicians play better with you when they hear the sound coming from your instrument so to speak, as opposed to monitors.

[mak1457]

Jazzooo, do you like it in back of you, to your side, or facing you?

[MathOfInsects]

Any time you can't hear sound, it's a mute point.