Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[theGman]

Waiting for someone to show the "shell" he built for his SS3..

[Morrissey]

Mathofinsects: I assume the guitar player had a mono input into your mixer into the SS3. Is the magic of the SS3 lessened significantly by a mono input?

 

Have others experimented running mono signals into the SS3? How much of a benefit does the SS3 offer for mono signals over using, say, a traditional single powered speaker?

[Doug Robinson]

I played a couple of pieces on the electric bass through it, in a jazz combo. Sounded lovely, very realistic.

[MotiDave]

how does a mono guitar or bass "blossom" out of the ss3? interesting ...

[drawback]

"blossom"

 

That's "bloom," sir. Bloomin' sceptics!

[HammondDave]

In the 70's I knew a groupie named "Blossom".

 

I think I saw her a few times in the Bob Weir documentary, "The Other One"

[MathOfInsects]

Waiting for someone to show the "shell" he built for his SS3..

 

I Lol'd.

 

Mathofinsects: I assume the guitar player had a mono input into your mixer into the SS3. Is the magic of the SS3 lessened significantly by a mono input?

 

Correct, he was mono, running solely though the center speaker. So technically, there was no "magic" at all from the SS3, Just a particularly hearty and pristine tone that sounded and carried great.

 

The caveat there is that volumes were relatively low. It's certainly not going to replace anyone's Marshall half anytime soon. But for a listener's room, even a large one, a guitarist would have more than enough grease with very faithful reproduction, to feel comfortable using the SS3 as FOH.

 

In the 70's I had a groupie named "Blossom".

 

I think I saw her a few times in the Bob Weir documentary, "The Other One"

 

I thought her name was Sugar Magnolia.

[TimA]

I wonder how the SSv3 would've sounded facing " the shell"?

[Doerfler]

I wonder how the SSv3 would've sounded facing " the shell"?

 

it would need to be upside down and backwards to get the full shell effect if facing the shell

[elif]

Aspen, I know this is a pipe dream right now, but:

 

For me, the only meaningful downside to this cabinet is the distance aspect. It sounds best 6 or so feet away from you. But that means that you can't play and adjust at the same time. I find the shuttling from keyboard to box and back, rinse and repeat, to adjust for the room less than practical, especially in new rooms or new groups. And if something is hinky halfway though a set, it can be even more difficult to find a good moment to get up and walk back to the box to trim it even more.

 

I do use a personal mixer, but often the only adjustment needed is local to the box itself, not to FOH sound, so EQ at the mixer isn't always a solve.

 

BUT this could easily be addressed with a remote panel that controls the same aspects as the four knobs on the back of the box. The ability to adjust width or speaker EQ on the fly would be a massive benefit for the gigging user of this monitor. (Particularly if, like me, your gigs, rooms, or bandmates can vary by the week or the night.)

 

Is this within the realm of feasibility? It doesn't need to be wireless, it doesn't need to be fancy. It just needs to remotely adjust the same parameters as those four knobs. I'd gladly pay extra for this capability. Given that the box is virtually required to sit more than leaning-length away from you, it seems like a logical next-gen addition to the fold.

 

SS3.1 perhaps?

It can be done with an analog matrix, i.e. op-amps, potentiometer, maybe a mixer if you can set it up. If the SS is adjusted with an equal mix of mid and side, (presume a 12 o'clock setting of the Width control), then matrix is:

 

L' = 0.5 * (L+R) - m*R

R' = 0.5 * (L+R) - m*L

where m is the remote mid-side mix ratio, and 0 <= m <=1.

 

The output of this matrix L' and R' become the L and R inputs to the SS.

[Doug Robinson]

Here's a clip of me taking a break from keys and playing bass through my SS3...

 

[theGman]

I believe there was a stripper named Blossom working on of the joints on 14th Street, back in the late 60s...

 

[Brettymike]

Do you believe , or do you know....

Brett

[HammondDave]

I believe there was a stripper named Blossom working on of the joints on 14th Street, back in the late 60s...

 

All I know is that she was hanging outside of Big Daddy's Lounge in Palm Beach in 1972. When my doctor gave me the shot of penicillin he asked: "Was it worth it?". And I answered "You bet!"

 

[theGman]

^^^^^ ha ha dittos

[MathOfInsects]

It can be done with an analog matrix, i.e. op-amps, potentiometer, maybe a mixer if you can set it up. If the SS is adjusted with an equal mix of mid and side, (presume a 12 o'clock setting of the Width control), then matrix is:

 

L' = 0.5 * (L+R) - m*L

R' = 0.5 * (L+R) - m*R

where m is the remote mid-side mix ratio, and 0 <= m <=1.

 

The output of this matrix L' and R' become the L and R inputs to the SS.

 

Thank you for this. Though I suspect it's over my head. I'll just wait for Aspen to invent it, then I'll buy it.

 

On another subject, though I'm pretty sure I'm one of the first five or so guys to gig with an SS3, and though I use it for every job I play, I have NOT had the "hey, what amp is that" experience that others have reported. I've written it off to the fact that for most of my gigs, you'd just better damn well sound good, however you make it happen.

 

But it happened today. Gig was mostly organ and vintage keys. After the second set, the bass player walked over and said, "Wow, how have I not heard of this amp before? I'm surprised more guys aren't using this. What's it called?" Then he took a bunch of cell phone pics of it and sent them off to keyboard friends.

 

Joke is on them though: little do they know it doesn't even come with a remote!

[Brettymike]

I believe there was a stripper named Blossom working on of the joints on 14th Street, back in the late 60s...

 

All I know is that she was hanging outside of Big Daddy's Lounge in Palm Beach in 1972. When my doctor gave me the shot of penicillin he asked: "Was it worth it?". And I answered "You bet!"

 

 

 

 

Was the Doctor visit before or after?

Brett

[theGman]

It was actually the Doctor's wife.

 

[JeffLearman]

BUT this could easily be addressed with a remote panel that controls the same aspects as the four knobs on the back of the box. The ability to adjust width or speaker EQ on the fly would be a massive benefit for the gigging user of this monitor. (Particularly if, like me, your gigs, rooms, or bandmates can vary by the week or the night.)

It can be done with an analog matrix, i.e. op-amps, potentiometer, maybe a mixer if you can set it up. If the SS is adjusted with an equal mix of mid and side, (presume a 12 o'clock setting of the Width control), then matrix is:

 

L' = 0.5 * (L+R) - m*L

R' = 0.5 * (L+R) - m*R

where m is the remote mid-side mix ratio, and 0 <= m <=1.

 

The output of this matrix L' and R' become the L and R inputs to the SS.

 

Details here. A nifty little project for the DIY type. This circuit has terminals for external loop (like an FX send/receive, where the signals are Mid and Side, so you could for example put compression on one but not the other). For this use, you'd simply put a width control here, which is just a volume knob for the Side channel. With passive attenuation you'd get at most 100% wide; with any gain in the external loop you could get more than 100% width (which I bet most folks wouldn't want anyway, but you never know what might work best at a given location.)

 

The circuit could be simplified considerably if you just wanted a width control pot, since you wouldn't need the insert tx and rx buffers, and since you wouldn't need balanced signals at that point.

 

Or, for "only" $600, Avenson Audio Mid-Side Stereo Processor (no EQ, though).

 

A remote control would be nifty indeed, but seriously, most of us wouldn't want to pay the price bump that would require. The simplest implementation would be two stereo loops that provide external access to the Mid and Side channels, which you could supply a box to control width (simply by changing volume on the Side channel) and EQ (which presumably you'd apply equally to both channels, but who knows?) You could do that with the simplest little 2-channel stereo mixer.

 

But it'd either mean four jacks, and you'd have to use four cables, if you want it balanced. With unbalanced, you could simplify it to two stereo TRS cables, but no standard mixer uses that so you'd need adaptor cables (fortunately, those exist; they're called recording insert cables.)

 

Either way, it would mean adding two or four jacks, and 4 buffer amps to the SS3, for a feature few people would use.

 

However, if you wanted to mod your SS3 to do this, it might just be possible, if you could find someone to do the engineering. That'd be above my pay grade.

[wineandkeyz]

Just to get this thread back on track... My Journey tribute band played yesterday at a wine festival in MD. The SS V3 sounded spectacular onstage. As we were tearing down, the keyboard player in the band after us noted that I was using a Spacestation. Turns out he uses one, too -- running a Diversi/Vent thru an SSV3 and JBL EON sub. He sounded spectacular!

I thought, there are only a few hundred of these active in the country, and now 2 of 'em are here in Hunt Valley!

[J. Dan]

Here's a nifty idea for Aspen:

 

MIDI control over the "wide" adjustment. I'm sure not everyone would want it, but it could be available as an option, or maybe even a retrofit. Add's a MIDI in jack, and a way to set the MIDI Channel, you can send a CC# to it, where a value of 64 is 12 o'clock. The pot on the SS3 becomes an offset. So at 12 o'clock, you get the normal range of 64 being the normal balance. If you need more or less in a particular room, you tweek the knob, which offsets all of the CC values it gets after than.

 

In this way, you could save individual patches with "wideness" settings, as well as control it from a local slider on your keyboard or midi controller.

[TimA]

Sorry, what's a diversi/ vent?

[timwat]

Sorry, what's a diversi/ vent?

 

Diversi used to make clone wheels. Their website currently only shows a JamKey MIDI controller, but the Diversi DV Duo Plus was what Joey D started endorsing back in around 2008.

 

The vent is the Neo Ventilator, which is a Leslie simulator pedal.

[TimA]

Cool, thanks Tim

[Aspen]

Played a gig last night where amps were our FOH sound. This was a jazz crowd in a large but low-ceilinged room, though the band is funk, not jazz. "PA" was a single powered speaker (underpowered, from what I later heard from a few people in the audience)."

 

Guitar player showed up without an amp. Long story, but point is he needed sound. That powered speaker had one, count 'em one input, and he needed it for the mic. So I ran him into my little mixer and through the SS3.

 

Sounded FANTASTIC. "Better than my amp," he said. To be sure, volumes were lower all around. BUT...for those who have asked about running a band through SS3, I can report that the guitar and keys each came through crystal clear. There were times where I thought it might even make a better guitar cab than key cab, given the middiness of the 8" speaker.

 

The other cool part was that we played in a "shell" (literally; see pic) so anything from the sides of the SS3 got to ride along the wall and shoot out like a shower head. So leslie-sounds were especially spacious and warm on this one.

 

http://i850.photobucket.com/albums/ab67/mathofinsects/shell_zpswxuwhpcf.jpg

 

This gig report hit my all my buttons, and moved me to chime in. It is my vision is that someday the whole band can plug into one mixer and one CPS speaker and have the same experience you had; "real time monitoring".

 

IMHO, this is "do-able" right now, but few would volunteer to venture into these uncharted waters of live performance thru a single speaker. But by "fate", you had to improvise. And as you commented, you (and the guitar player) were delighted with the sound!

 

But may I suggest it was not ONLY the "sound" that you describe as "fantastic" (which IMHO I think is partly due to the best "sounding" CPS system I have made to date) that delighted you. But suggest that additionally the increased comfort level of hearing you and your band mate's playing in "concert" from a single Center Point speaker...or as I like to call it "Real Time Monitoring" of your performance....was contributing factor to your "sound". This may have gone unmentioned, or even unnoticed by you...just because it was so "comfortable". But in my CPS experience, it was surely a big contributing factor to your "fantastic sound" (your words, not mine).

 

Consider this; if I were to take a poll of everyone reading this post right now, and ask; "what's single most difficult and/or challenging, and/or most frustrating thing about playing out live with your group?...I'd bet the #1 answer would be the difficulty of "monitoring the overall band mix and knowing how I fit into same".

 

In fact, few of us hold out any hope that this challenge could ever be met. Even w/ IEM and/or perfect stage monitor mixes....it's still a crap shoot.

 

However, when the "electric" keys and "electric" strings of this jazz ensemble suddenly were sharing the same EXACT "center point" of reference...nobody can hide and/or be hidden from each other. So, you instinctively found "the pocket", because your shared the same point of reference and actually the same "place in time". Your were literally "time alined", or in more common words; you were "in the pocket" (and could not escape it if you tried!).

 

Seldom have any of us experienced THAT!

 

This co habitation arrangement measurably increased your comfort level, and in turn could not help but improve your performance.

 

Hear no evil, play no evil! or in other words; nobody can "hide" if you all share in the same "Spacestation".

 

I have experienced this phenom first hand, many times...and it still gives me chills. This is one (of the two) most significant and unexpected benefits we never imagined when my partner Drew Daniels (my co inventor) and I began this long strange CPS trip...ever so many years ago.

 

But this benefit of "real time monitoring", along with the other unexpected phenom of "audience friendly listening"...the unexpected benefit of actually being able to converse with your wife or pals w/o screaming while the band is hitting 100 dB 12' away...is without doubt the REAL magic (blessing?) of the CPS technology.

 

And these features are also why I think we are just scratching the surface of perfecting the difficult world of live performance.

 

Someday, we will not wonder "how we sound', or how we "fit in the mix", or if the audience can "hear us"...we will just KNOW. And more importantly as a result, we will be able play out live without the constant stress of "not knowing".

 

Thanks so much for sharing MOI, your experience brought a big smile to my face this week end. I hope this leads to more purposeful experimentation in this direction. Sometimes accidents happen for a good reason!

 

 

NOTE: next time add a small taste of "00 Hall reverb" in your mixer to your guitar player (or vocalist)...that will really wake up side system in the CPS and "zoom the bloom". Just a taste goes a long way to add some 3D imagining.

[I-missRichardTee]

Aspen... Consider this; if I were to take a poll of everyone reading this post right now, and ask; "what's single most difficult and/or challenging, and/or most frustrating thing about playing out live with your group?...I'd bet the #1 answer would be the difficulty of "monitoring the overall band mix and knowing how I fit into same".

Aspen, you are on the money.. bandstand sound of me and mates is numero uno concern, with me!

You are making a major step in helping musicians play better music, and we are in your debt for this technology. A musician can only function within the parameters/ resources made available to him through the inventive entrepreneurial spirit of the rare breed that you are a part of ( Leo Fender anyone ). Your technology is on my radar.

 

[AnotherScott]

(deleted post)

[AnotherScott]

BUT this could easily be addressed with a remote panel that controls the same aspects as the four knobs on the back of the box. The ability to adjust width or speaker EQ on the fly would be a massive benefit for the gigging user of this monitor. (Particularly if, like me, your gigs, rooms, or bandmates can vary by the week or the night.)

A remote control would be nifty indeed, but seriously, most of us wouldn't want to pay the price bump that would require. The simplest implementation would be two stereo loops that provide external access to the Mid and Side channels

I think the simplest way might be to split the SS3 into two units: a head unit with all the electronics, and the speakerbox. Place the head near your playing position, and the speaker 6' away or whatever. The side advantage is that you'd have a couple of lighter pieces to carry (the SS3 is a bit heavy as an all-in-one). The downside, related to what you said about the approach you came up with as well, is that multiple cables would need to be run between the head and the speaker cabinet. And if you plug the cables into the wrong spots, so that the wrong amp is driving a particular speaker in the cabinet, you could be in big trouble!

[DanL]

power cable and 1 multi pin connector to go between the amp and cab.

[drawback]

Sorry I meant does (the Electro voice ZXA1 sub) steal as much gain from above the (Berhunger B1200 sub) 100hz crossover point!

Niven.

 

+1; Good question and one I also would like to have answered.

 

Perhaps one of our fellow SS3 owners here w/ this EV sub could try it PRE and POST SS3 and let us all know if the gain level to the SS3 is attenuated in the POST routing.

 

Hey Aspen, just curious -- do you witness the same gain drain if you use the passthru outputs from the B1200 into the SS3 as you do using the hi-pass filtered outs?

 

I've been wondering this myself. Note from the B1200D Manual that the XLR Outputs are "servo-balanced." Perhaps the pad is the result of receiving an already balanced output from the A/B and Thru A/B. I did a show last week where the FOH went straight to the board from the Thru Outs on the Behringer, no Di's necessary. Could the B1200D be sending out some kind of balanced output, then? Can anyone explain "servo-balanced?" Not being a technician, the info I've read isn't dumbed down enough!