Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[AnotherScott]

I play my Rhodes through Motion Sound stereo amps all the time, though, just using a mono input. I am thinking this would avoid carrying a big heavy Twin Reverb for the Rhodes on the few occasions a year that I take it out.

Of course you can play a mono sound through a stereo amp, but since you won't get actual stereo out of them anyway, you should be able to get amps that are cheaper and/or lighter that will sound as good or better than either the MS or SS stereo amps. But I'm not sure where the Twin Reverb vs. the Motion Sound comes into this (i.e. why you sometimes play it through one vs the other, or why you would be looking for the SS to replace one vs. the other). But the Twin Reverb has a very characteristic (and to some, very desirable) sound... if you like that sound on your Rhodes, you're not going to get that sound from the MS or the SS.

[Reezekeys]

You never play the Rhodes through a phaser or chorus? Might want stereo for that.

[16251]

Rhodes was never a stereo instrument like acoustic pianos are for obvious reasons (mike placement...) Of course it's the Stereo Vibrato as well as phase/chorus/verb. Using a digital piano on EP would seem to be the same as a real rhodes.

[PianoMan51]

Rhodes was never a stereo instrument

The Suitcase version of the Rhodes had a stereo amp that provided the moving tremolo/pan that everyone knows so well.

[HAMEGZ]

Rhodes was never a stereo instrument

The Suitcase version of the Rhodes had a stereo amp that provided the moving tremolo/pan that everyone knows so well.

 

I have one in my rehearsal room, and there are TWO amps and speakers in the speaker cab. and its in STEREO with the Vibrato.

 

Although old 16251 is PARTIALLY correct

 

The Suitcase Vibrato was the original Rhodes effect, built into all versions of the Suitcase piano (as well as Stage models with the Super Satellite & Janus I systems). The idea behind the Vibrato was to simulate a rotating speaker, although the actual sound was quite different. The first version of the Vibrato was in mono, a tremolo effect that varied the amplitude of the piano's output in a square-wave pattern. When the Suitcase amps went stereo in 1969, this pattern was translated into a panning effect. Front-panel controls were provided for Speed and Intensity.

[agitato]

Would you or maybe aspen know whether the ssv3 would fit in the yamaha ybs600i rolling case or something similar? Just asking.

[Alan Steinberger]

Likely more case than you're interested in lugging around, but the SS fits perfectly in a Pelican 1620.

[TomKittel]

Last weekend I used my Spacestation at a rehearsal with a cover rock band. Two guitars (much too loud as always!) thru a Mesa Boogie and a Twin Reverb plus bass, drums and a separate singer. I sat next to the drums and used my Spacestation as keyboard monitor. The SS V3 delivered plenty of volume. I left my new Behringer 1200D sub in the trunk of my car. No need for a sub in a normal band setting, not at all! I had to rather down-regulate some bass from my keyboard sounds (mainly organ, piano, rhodes, synth brass, strings and synth leads). All of my keyboard sounds were on the spot, better heard than ever before. Spacestation V3 rocks in any keyboard application! Period.

 

PS: I am thinking about returning the sub. It's a nice to have. But it really is redundant in a band setup.

[16251]

Rhodes was never a stereo instrument

The Suitcase version of the Rhodes had a stereo amp that provided the moving tremolo/pan that everyone knows so well.

 

Just some clarification. An acoustic piano can be real stereo without any effects cause of mic placement during sampling (excluding modeling.) The Rhodes doesn't use mics to sample so it's a mono instrument. It's the effects (Stereo Vibrato.) So, as I said, the Rhodes sounds in all digital pianos are mono until an effect is applied.

[Worth]

Hello folks. I am new here and this is my first post. I have been avidly reading about this new keyboard amp . I'm very keen on purchasing this amp based upon the reviews that I have read from actual musicians using version 3 .however I live in the UK and I was wondering if anyone from the UK or from Europe has bought one of these amazing keyboard amps and whether or not there has been any difficulty in rewiring the amp to convert to 230 V as the European standard ?

 

I am not an experienced electrician and I wanted to know if anyone had already done this or if this was just too much of a risk to take .

 

Thanks in advance for your help

[TomKittel]

I live in the UK and I was wondering if anyone from the UK or from Europe has bought one of these amazing keyboard amps and whether or not there has been any difficulty in rewiring the amp to convert to 230 V as the European standard ?

 

If you order it from Europe the Spacestation will be delivered ready for 230V. Plug and play.

[Worth]

Unfortunately it is only being sold by Aspen direct or Sweetwater both based in the US. There is no uk retailer that carries this board .

[Markay]

Earlier in this thread Aspen said that either Aspen or Sweetwater will take international orders and where these are from a 230v country it will be shipped ready to plug in to 230v.

[Worth]

That's fabulous !

[AnotherScott]

Short version: After a disappointing start with it, I came to like it quite a bit... but not enough to keep it.

 

Details:

 

First, I wanted to get an idea of what its sonic character was like, before getting into any of the stereo stuff. So I just sent a mono signal in, with the width (stereo effect) set to zero. This sounded atrocious. First thing I learned: Even with a mono signal, you want to bring up the width, which even in mono, still activates the second speaker, and noticeably improves the sound. Though I still found the sound to be pretty uninspiring and wimpy. I then sent a stereo signal (might as well, I was using the two speakers anyway), and was still unimpressed. It did not play very loud at all, and still just didn't sound particularly good.

 

Next, I put the signal through a mixer on its way to the Spacestation. Huge difference. Suddenly the sound had presence, with perfectly good volume. So the second thing I learned: A mixer is required. Okay, maybe it depends on the keyboard, how hot a signal it sends. But in my case, it solved two problems... it finally had enough volume to be usable, and the overall sound quality seemed to improve as well. Maybe the amp just wants to be driven hard, I don't know. But I wasn't done... it still sounded like it had a blanket over it. This effect disappeared when I turned its onboard MF EQ knob to about 3:00. Now it sounded MUCH better. So that's the third important point: use of the EQ knobs on the back is pretty essential.

 

As a test, I took the mixer out of the equation, and wanted to see if the MF EQ setting would allow the box to sound good even without the mixer, albeit at lower volume. No go. Without sending it the hotter signal, I couldn't get a sound I liked out of it. So back in went the mixer.

 

Next, I compared it to my EV ZXa1, with piano. By comparison, the Spacestation seemed a bit honky (kind of how I remember the QSC K8 being when compared with the same EV). But using a mixer with sweepable mid, I got it to sound as pleasant as the EV. (I can't tell you what frequency I cut, but it was at about 10:00 on the Yamaha board, and I cut it just a little, bringing it down to maybe 11:00.) So the fourth thing I learned: External EQ can improve this amp a lot. In fact, when I had it set just right in terms of levels, its own EQ, the board's EQ, and the width control, I actually thought it sounded better than the EV.

 

So out of the box, I thought it was bad, and with some effort I got it to sound even better than the ZXa1 that I've always liked. So why am I not keeping it? Here's the thing: I'm lazy. It takes time and effort to get the SpaceStation sounding right. If you put in the time, you'll be rewarded with probably the best sound you can get out of a single compact and reasonably priced box. But it seems like every one of these settings affects every other setting. By contrast, in any room, I can plug in the EV, and know I'm going to get a sound I like. Plug it in, turn it on, done. With the SpaceStation, there are just too many variables that I don't want to have to think about when I get to a gig. I don't have the inclination or the time to worry about how the width should be set for the space, and then find the combination of board/mixer/amp level and EQ settings to get the best sound out of it. It's not enough of an improvement to me to put in the effort... and if I don't put in the effort, I can easily end up with something less satisfying than if I just used the EV in the first place. I suppose with some more prep work, I might be able to come up with some known starting points that will likely be close for my gear, but even then, it's just more to deal with, and will likely still need some tweaking at the venue. Plus, by my standards, at about 40 lbs, it's just too heavy. For me to consider it, I'd have to have been blown away, and it would have to be a simple plug-and-play to get a superior sound every time, and it just didn't cross that threshold.

 

Okay, what about the spaciousness? After all, that's really the main point of it. Well yes, it works, and it's nice. But that effect is not important enough to me to offset the points above, though others may certainly feel differently. But being used to mono, there was something a bit seductive about the spaciousness that I felt bad about giving up. So I tried an experiment... I compared the SS to a pair of ZXa1, placed pretty close to each other, angled away from each other. (Kind of an exaggerated version of the Motion Sound 200/500 config.) While the effect was not identical, it did create a spacious sound that was no longer capable of being localized to coming specifically out of a box. (I suspect that the effect for the audience isn't as location-independent as with the SS, but not as bad as two speakers far apart.)

 

Of course, at this point, you're talking about additional expense--a pair of ZXa1 typically costs $1000 rather than $600 for a SpaceStation. But it is more "plug and play" (sounding good with no effort), and easier to cart around (the two ZXa1 at 19 lbs each aren't as much effort to move as the single SpaceStation)... and in my case, I already own them, so it's not like I need to make a decision as to whether it's worth the $400 premium. Being lazy as I said, I'll probably stick with just one ZXa1 most of the time anyway... but it's nice to know that, if and when I want more spaciousness, I'll get a decent benefit by just hooking up the other one (at least assuming it's not being used for other purposes that night, as it sometimes is).

 

So... cool box... if stereo is important to you, it's a compact, inexpensive way to get it and have it work over a wide area, and with effort, it can sound quite good. But it's heavy, and requires some patience to set up. You have to really want the stereo. For me, I prefer something I don't have to think about, even if the trade-off is mono, or alternatively, going with two speakers. So I put it in the KC Garage Sale, and if no one snaps it up, I'll just return it.

 

edit: as I explain further down in the thread, the need for a mixer is definitely not universal... if your board has a hot enough output, there's no problem plugging right into the SS. Also, the need for EQ--subjective to begin with--is mostly for acoustic piano. If your focus is elsewhere, you're likely to be fine without it.

[AnotherScott]

Someone emailed me about how I would compare it with the Roland SA-300, here's my response:

---

The spaciousness of the SpaceStation is much better than the SA-300. The "Wide" effect on the SA-300 changes the sound from appearing to come right out of the box to a sound that seems to be coming out of an area that extends beyond the box... but with the SpaceStation, it's not a matter of it sounding like it's coming from an area beyond the box, but rather, that it's not coming out of the box at all, if that makes sense. Also, the Wide effect on the SA-300 makes acoustic piano sound pretty bad. The ability to dial in an amount on the SpaceStation allows you to find a place where you get the effect but the piano still sounds good. (If you turn it up too high, the piano will still indeed sound bad, but you can scale the effect back, which you can't do in the Roland.)

 

As for the tonal sound quality, the Roland has better bass, if you need deep bass. Other than that, it's kind of apples and oranges. With the SS, you'd use a mixer, and so with EQ, you can get it sounding quite nice. With the Roland, it has its own mixer built in, but pretty useless EQ. So I guess I'd say, out of the box, both are okay, neither is great, but it's easier to improve the sound of the SS than to improve the sound of the Roland. My other big complaint about the Roland is it's dull sounding unless you boost the treble, but once you do that, it gets terribly noisy. So the SS has an edge in that respect.

---

 

and to that I'll also add that, I am still keeping the SA-300, and I use it pretty frequently. It's not the best sounding (and not as good as the ZXa1), but it's not bad... and again since I'm someone who likes a simple, fast, plug-and-play setup, there are times where it's just a very convenient way to go.

[mak1457]

I appreciate the honesty of your post.

 

Pardon my lack of understanding, but why did you need a mixer and what kind did you use? I don't like being in a bottomless pit of constantly having to get stuff to make my rig work.

[AnotherScott]

Pardon my lack of understanding, but why did you need a mixer and what kind did you use?

The mixer was needed to add gain (i.e. boost the level of the signal coming from the keyboard).

 

And really, having to use a mixer is not so off-putting, because odds are, if you're playing with more than one keyboard, you'd likely need a mixer anyway. Though if one of your keyboards has an Audio In, you would theoretically be able to use two keyboards without having to use a mixer. But the point is, in this case, you wouldn't want to. Based on my experience, even if you're using just one keyboard (or a pair of keyboards where you can feed the audio from one into the other to avoid having to use a mixer), you'd still need to use a mixer, just to make the amp sound good. As I mentioned, this might also vary with which keyboard(s) you're using. I'd be curious to know whether people here are perfectly happy with the sound of their board going directly into the SS; and if so, whether these same people can try adding a mixer to the chain, and whether they find that, even for them, adding the mixer improves the sound.

 

The side benefit is that the mixer added EQ functions, and I was able to use EQ to make it sound even better.

 

I used two mixers during my tests. The one with the parametric mid EQ that allowed me to improve the sound was a Yamaha MG166CX. That's not what I would use if I were to gig with this, because it's too big. But I would look for a small mixer with a sweepable mid. The Soundcraft EPM6 looks nice. For less money, an Alesis MultiMix 8 USB FX might do, though it has the EQ on only two channels (i.e. one stereo input). Not everyone will need the EQ, though. It's not like it's so bad without the EQ... as I said, it kind of reminded me of the QSC, which lots of people think is great. It's by no means unusable. But until I got the EQ in there, I wasn't able to get it to sound (to my ears) as good as the EV ZXa1.

 

edit: I see you're using just one board, the XK-1c. In that case, I don't think I would really worry about the EQ. It's really the acoustic pianos sounds where it makes a difference, organ is much more forgiving. And you only have the one board. So then the question would be, does the Hammond really drive the amp enough, or do you need the mixer to add gain. The Leslie rotary effect is an area where an amp like this really shines.

[mak1457]

I guess I'll be finding out in a couple weeks. Thanks for your response. I think this is where Jazzmammal ought to chime in seeing that he's used the SS for his SK. I wonder if he felt he needed a mixer.

[Strategery]

Someone in a previous post did mention using a BBE Maxcom, which of course is a combo Sonic Maximizer/Comp/Limiter.

Between that and a small mixer....that could solve some problems.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Randy

[Dave Bryce]

I used two mixers during my tests. The one with the parametric mid EQ that allowed me to improve the sound was a Yamaha MG166CX. That's not what I would use if I were to gig with this, because it's too big. But I would look for a small mixer with a sweepable mid. The Soundcraft EPM6 looks nice. For less money, an Alesis MultiMix 8 USB FX might do, though it has the EQ on only two channels (i.e. one stereo input).

Many small mixers (like line mixers) don't have actual gain circuits - they're just attenuators; and any of them that do have channels with mic ins and gain circuits, if you're using the line input channels you're also probably just attenuating.

 

dB

[AndyW]

I use the SS with the SK2 and my old MacBook with no issues with signal strength. (not at the same time)

[B. J. Love]

I have an SK1 and a PX-5S running thru a pair of ZXa1s. Both keyboards have on-board EQs that I find I have to adjust from gig to gig. For me, adding one more adjustment - the SS's width - wouldn't be a big deal.

[NosPup]

I've been using the Radial J+4 feeding into powered speakers to get additional gain without a mixer when using only 1 keyboard. http://www.radialeng.com/j4.php

 

I think it works very well and gives the sound a nice punch.

 

I haven't tried the Spacestation yet. Hopefully late December is if ships on time!

[AnotherScott]

Many small mixers (like line mixers) don't have actual gain circuits - they're just attenuators; and any of them that do have channels with mic ins and gain circuits, if you're using the line input channels you're also probably just attenuating.

That's certainly true for passive mixers. But for whatever reason, even with line inputs (on an active mixer), I'm getting a much hotter signal coming out of the mixer than going in. Maybe it's doing a -10 to +4 conversion? All I can say is, the SS goes louder and sounds better. For people who are perfectly happy with how their board sounds direct, maybe their boards just have a hotter output than what I used. But I'd be curious to see if even these folk would find an improvement in sound if they added a mixer to the signal chain.

[NosPup]

AnotherScott,

 

Thanks for your detailed review. I'm curious, was most of your testing done on Acoustic Piano sounds or did you run through lots of different sounds. I use mostly clonewheel and EP so I'm guessing I'll be pretty happy with the SS.

 

[Worth]

Is it possible that there was a problem with the unit you recieved ? It would be interesting to see if this was just a one off or if other users had the same issues .

[cphollis]

SpaceStation owner here. Yes, depending on the situation, you'll be fiddling with knobs to get the best sound. Short learning curve for me, not an issue.

 

I always use a mixer with any amplification. (1) healthy output levels guaranteed, (2) additional EQ options, and (3) I can create a single FOH feed for multiple keyboards. Others may differ.

 

Most keyboard sounds (organ, synth, clav, rhodes, etc.) are pretty great without tweaking. Leslie, in particular, is downright awesome. Getting a good AP sound takes some work, though.

 

I'm keeping mine

 

-- Chuck

[AnotherScott]

I'm curious, was most of your testing done on Acoustic Piano sounds or did you run through lots of different sounds.

Mostly acoustic piano. Also did some testing with organ and also playing "full band" demos that were built into the keyboard, just so I could walk around and hear it without having to be playing myself. But most of it was just piano, figuring that was the most demanding.

[AnotherScott]

Leslie, in particular, is downright awesome. Getting a good AP sound takes some work, though.

Yeah... Another approach could have been to use my ZXa1 for piano, and use the SpaceStation just for organ, a use where the SpaceStation is practically plug-and-play. But especially considering that I don't primarily play organ, I'm not going to bring around a separate 40 pound box just to play organ through. OTOH, it's a whole lot lighter than a Leslie. ;-)

 

Meanwhile, in further testing I see that the need for a mixer definitely does vary with your board. The Hammond SK1 has a suitably hot output, it sounded fine going right into the SS.