So, what are the NAMM rumours - if any???

[GovernorSilver]

Thanks, Mike and Dave. That post a while back about a 76-key Privia costing MORE than an 88-key was an eye-opener, giving us a bit of insight into the real costs of designing and manufacturing this type of product.

 

I could understand with the 76 key being the case as those are probably appealing to smaller markets. Even taking into account the above comments I still think with the MOXF, Krome et al its more to do with product differentiation rather than cost. There has to be some motivation to make someone pay a premium for the board that is above it. That's the nature of marketing.

 

As Dave stated, there are some unknowns about the MOXF and Krome. We don't know if either keyboard is based on an older design that did not include aftertouch. If the older design did not include aftertouch, you could tweak the design to add aftertouch, but then you have to make changes to your factory to support the new design - and we don't know how much those changes could have cost.

 

Every time a manufacturer designs to issue a new model, do they buy a whole new set of machines to make the new model? I'm guessing they don't. They modify their factory machines - at least that is my guess.

[Synthoid]

As Dave stated, there are some unknowns about the MOXF and Krome. We don't know if either keyboard is based on an older design that did not include aftertouch.

 

From what I recall, the Triton LE keyboard (a close relative to the Krome) responded to aftertouch, but the original Yamaha MO series did not.

[jerrythek]

Thanks, Mike and Dave. That post a while back about a 76-key Privia costing MORE than an 88-key was an eye-opener, giving us a bit of insight into the real costs of designing and manufacturing this type of product.

 

I could understand with the 76 key being the case as those are probably appealing to smaller markets. Even taking into account the above comments I still think with the MOXF, Krome et al its more to do with product differentiation rather than cost. There has to be some motivation to make someone pay a premium for the board that is above it. That's the nature of marketing.

 

Interesting that you dismiss direct feedback from manufacturer-related people. From my perspective (and while I spent 16 years with Korg I did not work on the planning development of the Krome, but did do every product from 1997 through early 2011), setting a target price point was always the guideline that drove the decisions regarding keybed, aftertouch, size of the display etc. For most products, the whole chip/CPU/subsystem was also chosen based on the target price point. So whenever we wanted to make a $1500 and below product we had to cut in these most basic areas. And keybed and aftertouch were always affected by this goal. The cost of the keybed and the mechanics involved to support aftertouch were a significant enough cost (after working up from parts cost, to distributor cost, to dealer cost, to street price) that it had to be dropped. Touch and feel are so important, I agree, but so is the basic sound of the keyboard, and you can't cut the ROM too far etc.

 

An age-old problem - who wants to play a great sounding instrument if it doesn't feel good, right? But who wants a great feeling keyboard coupled with lackluster/weak/inadequate sounds?

 

Regards,

 

Jerry

[jerrythek]

As Dave stated, there are some unknowns about the MOXF and Krome. We don't know if either keyboard is based on an older design that did not include aftertouch.

 

From what I recall, the Triton LE keyboard (a close relative to the Krome) responded to aftertouch, but the original Yamaha MO series did not.

 

You are talking about responding to aftertouch messages via MIDI. No hardware cost there. Almost all Korg's do that... in fact, most respond to poly-aftertouch via MIDI.

 

Jerry

[Synthoid]

As Dave stated, there are some unknowns about the MOXF and Krome. We don't know if either keyboard is based on an older design that did not include aftertouch.

 

From what I recall, the Triton LE keyboard (a close relative to the Krome) responded to aftertouch, but the original Yamaha MO series did not.

 

You are talking about responding to aftertouch messages via MIDI. No hardware cost there. Almost all Korg's do that... in fact, most respond to poly-aftertouch via MIDI.

 

Hmmmmm, I thought the specs I read awhile back stated the Triton LE keyboard itself responded to aftertouch... was that incorrect?

 

 

[Dana.]

Considering the way music is made and performed these days, I think the amount of people demanding aftertouch is pretty small.

[Synthoid]

Considering the way music is made and performed these days, I think the amount of people demanding aftertouch is pretty small.

 

It's quite possible many younger musicians with "bedroom studios" don't even know what it is.

[jerrythek]

As Dave stated, there are some unknowns about the MOXF and Krome. We don't know if either keyboard is based on an older design that did not include aftertouch.

 

From what I recall, the Triton LE keyboard (a close relative to the Krome) responded to aftertouch, but the original Yamaha MO series did not.

 

You are talking about responding to aftertouch messages via MIDI. No hardware cost there. Almost all Korg's do that... in fact, most respond to poly-aftertouch via MIDI.

 

Hmmmmm, I thought the specs I read awhile back stated the Triton LE keyboard itself responded to aftertouch... was that incorrect?

 

 

 

Whoops - my bad. Been too long. Yes, it did have physical aftertouch. Too many models down the road for me. It's the last time we fought and won on the AT front. So we cut other things like the number of insert effects, the display, the power supply, the case, ROM expansion etc.

 

Sorry for the wrong turn.

 

Jerry

[Synthoid]

Whoops - my bad. Been too long. Yes, it did have physical aftertouch. Too many models down the road for me. It's the last time we fought and won on the AT front. So we cut other things like the number of insert effects, the display, the power supply, the case, ROM expansion etc.

 

Sorry for the wrong turn.

 

Jerry

 

No problem.... thanks Jerry!

[GovernorSilver]

Moog Music has leaked more info about Sub 37:

http://www.moogmusic.com/imgs/SUB_37_TRIBUTE.pdf

 

It's paraphonic...

 

Nothing yet on the other new Moog product, though it's most likely the Theremini.

[Synthoid]

Nothing yet on the other new Moog product

 

Found it:

 

http://www.vintagesynth.com/moog/moog_memorymoog_angle.jpg

 

[orangefunk]

Thanks, Mike and Dave. That post a while back about a 76-key Privia costing MORE than an 88-key was an eye-opener, giving us a bit of insight into the real costs of designing and manufacturing this type of product.

 

I could understand with the 76 key being the case as those are probably appealing to smaller markets. Even taking into account the above comments I still think with the MOXF, Krome et al its more to do with product differentiation rather than cost. There has to be some motivation to make someone pay a premium for the board that is above it. That's the nature of marketing.

 

Interesting that you dismiss direct feedback from manufacturer-related people. From my perspective (and while I spent 16 years with Korg I did not work on the planning development of the Krome, but did do every product from 1997 through early 2011), setting a target price point was always the guideline that drove the decisions regarding keybed, aftertouch, size of the display etc. For most products, the whole chip/CPU/subsystem was also chosen based on the target price point.

 

I can only go by my own experience with software hardware config and product derivations I suppose Jerry.

 

I did not intend to dismiss anything out of hand. I might not have much knowledge about the specifics of keyboard manufacturing though I do about other industries (automobile/aviation/embedded controllers/navigational systems & data /smart homes/etc.).

 

While they aren't directly related I guess we both agree the focus is on product derivations at the appropriate price points. I still think identifying features (tipping point of price v features) of a system which might make a customer think of buying a higher specced system is an important part of product marketing. We see it in all products or at least products which form part of a product line. I guess that was my real point.

 

Maybe others don't share my views but I am honestly offering insights from my own industrial experience where even lower specced components can cost as much as higher spec but might be justified from a marketing perspective to fill a certain product market segment. Might seem counter-intuitive but that is how it can work.

 

 

 

[Dana.]

Moog Music has leaked more info about Sub 37:

http://www.moogmusic.com/imgs/SUB_37_TRIBUTE.pdf

 

It's paraphonic...

So, paraphonic Sub Phatty with 37 keys?

[mate stubb]

I don't care for after touch on my piano hammer action boards. It messes with the feel - better for the unweighted synth actions IMO.

[GovernorSilver]

Moog Music has leaked more info about Sub 37:

http://www.moogmusic.com/imgs/SUB_37_TRIBUTE.pdf

 

It's paraphonic...

So, paraphonic Sub Phatty with 37 keys?

 

Also, an arpeggiator, a 2nd LFO, and probably other features I can't pick out from the PDF. I'd be fine with that as opposed to a MemoryMoog reissue myself.

[miden]

I don't care for after touch on my piano hammer action boards. It messes with the feel - better for the unweighted synth actions IMO.

 

Yeah I agree - it (AT) is also really cool for guitar parts which are far better played on a semi-weighted or synth weighted keybed too imo

[Dana.]

More on the Yamaha P-255:

 

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical-instruments/keyboards/digitalpianos/p_series/p-255/?mode=model

[Dave Weiser]

Considering the way music is made and performed these days, I think the amount of people demanding aftertouch is pretty small.

 

You sir are correct.

And I don't necessarily mean this in a "kids these days with their drum machines and auto-tune" either.

Tons of gigging players in wedding/blues/rock/funk/jazz bands have little to no use for aftertouch.

 

One curious thing I found when I worked for a manufacturer - some keys players, after years of reading marketing blurbs and product spec sheets, have come to *think* that they need it... but then once they purchase a keyboard, actually rarely or never use it.

 

I would hazard a guess that most manufacturers include it not because it will be used by most players, but because it has come to be expected by customers on products above a certain price point.

 

[i am now ducking to avoid the tomatoes being thrown in my direction!]

 

 

[miden]

Agree Dave - was a really useful tool (especially Poly AT) when pretty much all we did was MIDI based, but as you say these days it's only there as makers think end-users consider it "de rigour"

[Dave Weiser]

I should have added though, that I like to use bits of aftertouch on synth sounds.

 

On many actions it can be a little jumpy/abrupt, so I often use it to trigger a smooth ASR, where I could adjust the time for things like pressure activated filters sweeps.

[DulceLabs.com]

I like after-touch, but I don't use it enough for it do be a deal breaker for me.. same with an expression pedal. If I ever do have the need for either, I would probably just get a FCB-1010 pedal unit.

 

Just as a side not, I do seem to recall Mr. Martin mentioning somewhere that that AT interfered with the action on PX-5S and Casio did not want to mess with that.

[Joe Muscara]

I don't know what's current, but when I was looking at the RD-700GX, that had escapement. The top of the line 88-key Fantom at the time had nearly the same action, but instead of escapement, it had aftertouch.

 

There's an example of the choices you and the manufacturers have, I think.

[steadyb]

I don't know what's current, but when I was looking at the RD-700GX, that had escapement.

 

What is "escapement"? Is that for when you've played yourself into a corner? Or is it something only to be used by the Spanish Rick Wakeman?

[Tusker]

What is "escapement"? Is that for when you've played yourself into a corner? Or is it something only to be used by the Spanish Rick Wakeman?

 

Brilliant.

 

It's all about the cape ...

 

 

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Pix/pictures/2010/3/6/1267893413746/Spanish-matador-Jose-Toma-001.jpg

[Tusker]

Moog Music has leaked more info about Sub 37:

http://www.moogmusic.com/imgs/SUB_37_TRIBUTE.pdf

 

It's paraphonic...

So, paraphonic Sub Phatty with 37 keys?

 

Wonder if it has a Vox Humana preset? I realize it's labeled an analog synth, but I would love to see them integrate some Animoog style digital "oscillators".

[EscapeRocks]

I don't know what's current, but when I was looking at the RD-700GX, that had escapement.

 

What is "escapement"? Is that for when you've played yourself into a corner? Or is it something only to be used by the Spanish Rick Wakeman?

 

Something they added to try to get me to buy one.

[Aussie_Chicago]

Don't need or care about aftertouch either, I would rather have a good feeling keybed, with good sound and easy to navigate UI, that's why I love playing a Hammond, drawbars and a cpl of switches is all I need ...

[erikjamesmusic]

Dave Weiser, you are a class act. I'll be missing you this year!

 

Y'all stop by the Casio booth and say hello! Perhaps dB will grace us with his monster chops and he and I can have one of our infamous jams again.

 

Les do this thang!

[vanderSchoot]

I don't know what's current, but when I was looking at the RD-700GX, that had escapement.

 

What is "escapement"? Is that for when you've played yourself into a corner? Or is it something only to be used by the Spanish Rick Wakeman?

Escapement is something that a real grand piano tries to minimalize the best way possible. It is an unwanted artifact, two pieces that should make as little physical/audible contact.

 

So yes throw it in, then it must be a real mechanic with obvious flaws

 

In time we will see the dirty yellow ivory look, because that is how a 100 years old keyboard looks like.

And what about dampers that don't dampen the strings sufficiently.......like a beat up grand that needs a revision.

 

It will be called ''Pleyel echo''........it will without a doubt increase the selling numbers.

 

And of course a palet of ''perfumes'' impregnated into the keys.

Whis''key'', smo''key'', or lager''key'' all to increase the experience of playing a real grand with character.

 

 

[keyman27]

vanderSchoot, you're a genius! I would totally buy an instrument that had an olfactory component to it. But I would want it to be multi-odor (the smell equivalent of multi-timbral). When it's in clonewheel mode, I want to smell the ozone and Hammond oil. Switch to a honky tonk piano, I want to smell the sawdust and stale beer.