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For lovers of B3 ( clonewheel players too ) only!!


I-missRichardTee

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In 1973 I owned a great sounding B3 and Leslie .

 

This thread is all about Clonewheel players esp without a Leslie, dealing with the absolutely vital need of these effects Leslie speed variations, chorus variations, distortion etc.

 

I once took my killer B3 and played it through an amp ( no Leslie ) and was unpleasantly surprised.. did not like it at all.

 

If I sustained a sound on a B3, esp with my failed amp experiment, I found this very important point.. the sound of a B3 that is not varied, but just sustained "as is"... after x amount of seconds, sounds awful.

I believe the sound of the best B3, if sustained for x minutes, and WITHOUT CHANGING IT in ANY WAY ( no Leslie on off slow ) ( No change of drawbars ) ( No change of vibrato/chorus ) THAT sustained sound, could be used to torture people.. so to speak.

A love hate relationship to B3... as long as there is variation in sound, all is wonderful.

 

B3 is a screaming beast, that absolutely must be constantly kept under control, not only with note choices.. rhythms- what all other instrumentalists deal with, but with these effects, most notably Leslie.

All of this to say,when playing a clonewheel without a Leslie, these famous B3 effects become exaggeratedly vital for me.

 

My new Mojo, is one of the closest experiences to a real B3.. so esp without using a Leslie, my focus is on all manner of subtle and not so subtle VARIATIONS, of tonewheel sets, C3 speeds, leslie variations, distortion, and reverb, not to mention Expression pedal variations if possible.

 

I want any clonewheel I play to make this EFFECTS and their VARIATIONS, extremely varied and facile experience. This is why I like the CX3 though it is not as realistic as newer clonewheel's!

 

 

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Hallelujah! was my first thought... :taz:

 

seriously - I'm on the same page - while I've never played, let alone owned a real B3, I've been in love with that sound forever - it's the aural equivalent of the big tit in the sky, right? - with my new sk1 73 with drawfaders (as opposed to the drawbuttons on my nord), as well as the waterfall keys and organ action and the options on the vent, giving me a more visceral connection, I am venturing into whole new (for me) areas of sound modulation on my b3 sounds -

 

of course all of this helps distract from my rather limited keyboard virtuosity... :D

 

bottom line is that with a couple of groups I play with, I am playing almost all organ with only occasional piano, way less than previously... precisely for all the reasons you mention... and of course it does help that everyone I'm playing with loves the sounds I'm getting out of my setup...

gig: hammond sk-1 73, neo vent, nord stage 2 76, ancona 34 accordion, cps space station v3

home: steinway m, 1950 hammond c2

 

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Jon Lord Deep Purple Hammond into Marshall Amps (albeit C/V)

 

Jazz players into PR40 or Leslie on stop (still the C/V)

 

so doesn't have to be the trinity of signal into a Leslie © cabinet

 

but I understand your point , I have an 30s era Hammond AV into a 147, my SK2 or Stage 2 with internal sims, Vent or new MS 145 come real close, but not quite there for a purist,, to me or the audience, its not a deal breaker ..

SpaceStation V3,

MoxF6,PX5S,Hammond-SK2,Artis7,Stage2-73,

KronosX-73,MS Pro145,Ventilator,OB DB1,Lester K

Toys: RIP died in the flood of 8/16 1930 Hammond AV, 1970s Leslie 145, 1974 Rhodes Stage

 

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I'm not sure what the initial post is about. I find it extremely hard to read.

 

Jim you are the consummate diplomat...BTW...im still checking the Hammond site for the latest OS update for our SKs

 

put a bug in their ear???

SpaceStation V3,

MoxF6,PX5S,Hammond-SK2,Artis7,Stage2-73,

KronosX-73,MS Pro145,Ventilator,OB DB1,Lester K

Toys: RIP died in the flood of 8/16 1930 Hammond AV, 1970s Leslie 145, 1974 Rhodes Stage

 

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I think Tee made the amazing discovery that for classic jazz and R&B a nice B3 sounds like crap going through a regular old amp. It's called, "yeah, where have you been?" for us long time B3 guys.

 

Tee, the original organ that Laurens Hammond used for his famous shoot out with a huge built in pipe organ back in the 30's was designed for venues that couldn't afford a built in pipe organ. He was strictly after the 17th century classical church sound that has no relation to the jazz sound we're talking about. In fact Laurens hated Don Leslie so bad he tried to ban his dealers from selling them. He thought it ruined his pipe organ sound so when you take a B3 and plug it into a nice modern PA system, that's what you're hearing, Laurens Hammond's original classical pipe organ substitute. Get somebody who can play Toccata and Fugue in D Minor on it and then you'll hear what the B3 was created to do. Or, I'm sure you've done some weddings, keep the B3 going through the PA or amp and set it up to sound like a pipe organ and play the Wedding March on it and then the light bulb will go off and you'll go "Oh, that's what this was originally built for".

 

All the jazzers and rockers have completely bastardized the original concept of the organ and of course now we all love that sound.

 

Bob

Hammond SK1, Mojo 61, Kurzweil PC3, Korg Pa3x, Roland FA06, Band in a Box, Real Band, Studio One, too much stuff...
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I'm not sure what the initial post is about. I find it extremely hard to read.

 

I found it too aggressive to even attempt to read. ImRT, you should be aware that when a long post contains lots and lots of bolded text, especially with FREQUENT ALL-CAPS and ITALICIZED PHRASES, many people will find it instantly off-putting as though they're being shouted at, and therefore won't even bother reading it. When you emphasize everything, you emphasize nothing.

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I'm not sure what the initial post is about. I find it extremely hard to read.

 

Reread it from time to time ! edit I have rewrote it!! I am guilty of not getting to a point without preambles to the point, followed by more of the same .. but I do have a few points in there.

One point was sustaining a B3 on a single note with no leslie is actually disturbing to hear AFTER x amount of time passes. you and I have been on better terms in the past. Let's hope things get better from this point!

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I'm not sure what the initial post is about. I find it extremely hard to read.

 

I found it too aggressive to even attempt to read. ImRT, you should be aware that when a long post contains lots and lots of bolded text, especially with FREQUENT ALL CAPS and ITALICIZED PHRASES, many people will find it instantly off-putting as though they're being shouted at, and therefore won't even bother reading it. When you emphasize everything, you emphasize nothing.

 

"I suck, I am going to disappear into the ether now"... not really

thank you for taking the time, though.

I have difficulty expressing properly. I will try to edit, but I need to get to a gig, where English Composition is not required :wave:

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I think Tee made the amazing discovery that for classic jazz and R&B a nice B3 sounds like crap going through a regular old amp. It's called, "yeah, where have you been?" for us long time B3 guys.

 

Tee, the original organ that Laurens Hammond used for his famous shoot out with a huge built in pipe organ back in the 30's was designed for venues that couldn't afford a built in pipe organ. He was strictly after the 17th century classical church sound that has no relation to the jazz sound we're talking about. In fact Laurens hated Don Leslie so bad he tried to ban his dealers from selling them. He thought it ruined his pipe organ sound so when you take a B3 and plug it into a nice modern PA system, that's what you're hearing, Laurens Hammond's original classical pipe organ substitute. Get somebody who can play Toccata and Fugue in D Minor on it and then you'll hear what the B3 was created to do. Or, I'm sure you've done some weddings, keep the B3 going through the PA or amp and set it up to sound like a pipe organ and play the Wedding March on it and then the light bulb will go off and you'll go "Oh, that's what this was originally built for".

 

All the jazzers and rockers have completely bastardized the original concept of the organ and of course now we all love that sound.

 

Bob

 

This is not a new discovery about awful sound of a held note on a B3 thru an amp and without Leslie, etc. i noted this in 1977 or so.

The longer you hear that sustained sound, the more annoying it becomes... and I am quite aware of holding down the highest C with a match book as one plays. But That high C is with all kinds of musical activity beneath it, and with other variations in B3 effects chorus, on off brake etc.

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I think that any sustained sound without variation, over a long enough period of time will be annoying. Consider string instruments, brass, woodwinds, piano, even the human voice, all have subtle variation when sustained. That adds to the depth and character. Frequent tonal adjustments while playing a Hammond (drawbars, percussion, swell pedal, Leslie speed, etc.) all contribute to the enjoyment for both the listener and the player.
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In 1973 I owned a great sounding B3 and Leslie .

 

This thread is all about Clonewheel players esp without a Leslie, dealing with the absolutely vital need of these effects Leslie speed variations, chorus variations, distortion etc.

 

I once took my killer B3 and played it through an amp ( no Leslie ) and was unpleasantly surprised.. did not like it at all.

 

If I sustained a sound on a B3, esp with my failed amp experiment, I found this very important point.. the sound of a B3 that is not varied, but just sustained "as is"... after x amount of seconds, sounds awful.

I believe the sound of the best B3, if sustained for x minutes, and WITHOUT CHANGING IT in ANY WAY ( no Leslie on off slow ) ( No change of drawbars ) ( No change of vibrato/chorus ) THAT sustained sound, could be used to torture people.. so to speak.

A love hate relationship to B3... as long as there is variation in sound, all is wonderful.

 

B3 is a screaming beast, that absolutely must be constantly kept under control, not only with note choices.. rhythms- what all other instrumentalists deal with, but with these effects, most notably Leslie.

All of this to say,when playing a clonewheel without a Leslie, these famous B3 effects become exaggeratedly vital for me.

 

My new Mojo, is one of the closest experiences to a real B3.. so esp without using a Leslie, my focus is on all manner of subtle and not so subtle VARIATIONS, of tonewheel sets, C3 speeds, leslie variations, distortion, and reverb, not to mention Expression pedal variations if possible.

 

I want any clonewheel I play to make this EFFECTS and their VARIATIONS, extremely varied and facile experience. This is why I like the CX3 though it is not as realistic as newer clonewheel's!

 

 

I don't really understand what you mean sorry.......

I do know that my latest ''clone'' HX3 surpasses everything I had before.

Without any sim or cho/perc. activated it has extreme balls.

 

I didn't knew what I was missing before (having all sorts of Nords, a Numa and played the new B3 mk2 many times)

 

The raw tone is so balsy it is difficult to describe...all digital artifacts, polished behaviour, gentile smoothness of certain other clones don't apply with HX3.

 

It is like going back into a timemachine and truly experience the greatness of the real thing.

I have connected it with a leslie 860 and out of curiousity I frequently compare it with Nord, Numa (both with internal sim)through a Motionsound KP500SN or high quality stereo Bose set.

 

I was in denial about my own sound I confess....didn't acknowledge (actually did knew to be honoust)what I was missing till now. I played on real ones quite often for a couple of minuets (tuning a grand piano on a stage that had a real Hammond too)and always thought....why doesn't my clone sound like this ?

Now it finally does !

 

P.S. I bought tickets and have a stand at winter namm 2014 for a new product (wooden mobile guitar stand)and maybe I can take HX3 if some of you are really interrested.

 

 

 

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As ABECK mentions, any sound sustained long enough with no variation would be annoying. Even something like an original Moog modular oscillator, worth several thousand dollars, is boring on its own. That's why there are modulation effects (chorus vibrato), filters (drawbars), and amplitude modulators (the expression pedal). Just like the Moog has filter, EG, and LFO modules among many others.

 

Jazzmammal touched on the fact that Laurens Hammond did not like the Leslie speaker and tried to forbid his dealers from selling them. Even without a Leslie, a Hammond organ in the acoustic space it was designed for (a church) with a proper organist playing it sounds just fine. If you don't have a church, the Hammond tone cabinets sound good, too, with their reverb and tonal characteristics. If you're not using the expression pedal then you're not playing the instrument properly. Ditto to the drawbars. Ditto the c/v. That's why they are there.

 

I prefer the STOP "speed" most often these days. But I'm not just sitting on one note all day long. Why would I?

 

The raw sound of any clone is important. If the raw sound is authentic, then that clone will sound good through the same things the real tonewheel organ sounds good through. The Hammond series have the best raw tone that I've heard. Their Leslie sims are not quite up to par, though the XK1c is quite good. But everything else is really close.

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I don't know, man... My voice modulates a lot and most people still consider me "annoying"...

 

I agree with Jim. About seven years ago I started playing my XK3 in performance without any Leslie efx. Maybe because I play my 55 With two 21hs on stop 90% of the time. Love it!

'55 and '59 B3's; Leslies 147, 122, 21H; MODX 7+; NUMA Piano X 88; Motif XS7; Mellotrons M300 and M400; Wurlitzer 200; Gibson G101; Vox Continental; Mojo 61; Launchkey 88 Mk III; Korg Module

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As far as authentic Hammonds go, I grew to prefer the straight sound over the Lesliefied one (even in stop mode) a good while ago but different songs or style/genres will call for a specific effect. Having both types is the ideal.

 

 

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As far as authentic Hammonds go, I grew to prefer the straight sound over the Lesliefied one (even in stop mode) a good while ago but different songs or style/genres will call for a specific effect. Having both types is the ideal.

 

 

I appreciate both what you said, and the non judgemental way you said it :wave:

 

As I wrote this thread, I was challenged to make more sense, be more clear.

I guess, more immediate control over the B3 effects, and expanded amount of variations of those B3/Leslie FX, as would be easily done with a synth interface.

My Mojo is a very good representation of the B3. The Tony Monaco demo with his A 100 and his Mojo into a 122, convinced me. And Tony was telling the truth, at least for me! What I would like to see is the parameters that are so to speak, under the hood ( only accessible with a mouse and monitor ) of the Mojo, instead be right under my fingers.

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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I think that any sustained sound without variation, over a long enough period of time will be annoying. Consider string instruments, brass, woodwinds, piano, even the human voice, all have subtle variation when sustained. That adds to the depth and character. Frequent tonal adjustments while playing a Hammond (drawbars, percussion, swell pedal, Leslie speed, etc.) all contribute to the enjoyment for both the listener and the player.

 

For reasons, any musician can figure out, I think the B3 is inferior to most if not all acoustic instruments, in terms I mentioned in the opening thread... a sustained note with no variation in effects. A clarinet holding a long tone never begins to get strident the way a B3 can. A masterful B3 player knows how to create nuance, that covers this inherent strident quality of B3.

All I am saying, is listen to the unaffected sound of a B3 through an amp, for about 20 seconds.. or don't! That is my opinion. This feels like I have inadvertently stepped on a sacred cow.. I am sorry about this. I happen to love the B3 sound.. I simply maintain that the effects chorus, leslie, expression drawbars, coverup very nicely this mechanical sound. When Chester in particular, plays the B, I am transported to a musical high.

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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Pipe organs have flue pipes and reed pipes and often other 'sounds'. I can't recall hearing any pipe organ piece with a lengthy sustained note, other than beginnings an endings which wasn't altered by bringing in other pipes. Other than very small pipe organs and some street organs, it's the norm to vary the tone of sustained organ notes by whatever means available. There may be some esoteric musics where a monotonous trance-like long sustained unchanging sound is required but mostly it's a downside to the pipe organ, so short notes and tonal variations by other means are the norm.
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Pipe organs have flue pipes and reed pipes and often other 'sounds'. I can't recall hearing any pipe organ piece with a lengthy sustained note, other than beginnings an endings which wasn't altered by bringing in other pipes. Other than very small pipe organs and some street organs, it's the norm to vary the tone of sustained organ notes by whatever means available. There may be some esoteric musics where a monotonous trance-like long sustained unchanging sound is required but mostly it's a downside to the pipe organ, so short notes and tonal variations by other means are the norm.

 

Do you consider ( one of my favorite instruments the Pipe Organ ) the Pipe Organ to be in the same acoustical category as the tonewheel Hammond organ? In any case, it sounds like you are the first person to understand and seemingly agree with the ironic situation with the B3. Irony, because I love the sound that certain organist get.. and I think it is because of brilliant use of the effects on the B3. I could be mistaken though.. it is possible certain drawbar settings ( Stops ) are much much less strident, and can be tolerated for longer sustained notes..

Thank you

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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A single note on a clarinet can be just as bad as a single note played on a B3 when both are played by non-masters. A few years into playing clarinet, the player will learn to add vibrato..just as a B3 player will learn to use a dang Leslie. :)

 

BTW I played the Toccata in Dm the other night on one of my Hammond spinets. I never learned the fugue. Anyhow, I thought it sounded great; I played with the Leslie on chorale...although that Leslie has a stop position, I have never even bothered adding a switch to get it. You can't really play left-hand bass on a spinet; the day I bought the 760 I pretty much retired my 51 until I can get some slow motors in there.

 

Have you ever listened to how different players use the Leslie? Some use tremolo as an "always on" thing, part of the tone palette. Players like Booker (who has a degree in trombone) seem to use it more like a wind player might use vibrato. I am classically trained as a saxophonist, my organ playing is largely self-taught (I also took piano). I often think of long tones on the organ like I would on the saxophone; using the tremolo switch much as I might use my jaw. That is actually one reason I scratch my head over 122-style switching, I want instant response from my treble horn.

 

If you would like to hear an organist use a Hammond in popular music without chorale, Booker is actually a pretty great example IMHO. He tends to use Tremolo and Stop, and a lot of Stop. Green Onions was recorded without a Leslie at all.

 

Wes

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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Wow, you played JS Bach's Toccata... I love Bach and that Toccata in particular. It never gets common, or boring for me.

I too studied Sax seriously.. I was talented on it, then I quit unfortunately.

I never thought about the instant faster speed Leslie idea.

 

When I started this thread, I took a little deserved heat, because I was not entirely clear about what I was saying.. I would not say I was rambling, because there were real points, issues, inside my round about stream of consciousness approach! The last few posters in this thread, have helped me narrow down the ideas.

It is so true about how brilliantly Booker T makes such use of the minimal effects ( I grew up with one in my house there are a few models L and an M model that escape me now ) on the Hammond. Just brilliant . Because I hang here at KC, I discovered the greatness of Lonny Smith.. who is another player who makes extensive use of those B3 FX ( vibrato chorus Leslie etc )

What I am saying is if a clonewheel can get as close as my Mojo ( pretty darn close ) the next frontier for brilliant designers like Guido from Crumar ( not familiar with other clonewheels designers by name ) is merging of computer technology with what Hammond and Leslie created ( not happily either !!! ).

The next new frontier to those with an open mind, is to respect the original B3 Leslie creation, while adding to it, in the area most difficult to improve on.. different speeds and degrees of vibrato AS ONE PLAYS IT!

Thank you Wes and icarusi.

 

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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My original post.. does suck... but I cannot edit it. If you guys who were critical of it, had read between the lines, so to speak, you would see where I was erratically trying to go!

You don't have ideas, ideas have you

We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement

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No big wow, I am probably playing a super simplified arrangement. I learned the piece studying piano many years ago, and have recently started working through it by memory on organ. I use very few bass pedal notes and have real trouble with the left hand fingerings in the part that goes 123-123-123-12 starting on F#.

 

But even if I don't play like a classical organ monster, that piece is ... just .. I love playing Bach, that's all I can really say. It is magnificent, timeless music.

 

I'm not sure we need to merge computer technology with it, though. Look at EWIs (electronic wind instruments). These have been available for a long time, yet have never really taken off. I think we may have already achieved something close to the penultimate organ experience and the next big thing is more likely to not resemble anything we know today.

Hammond: L111, M100, M3, BC, CV, Franken CV, A100, D152, C3, B3

Leslie: 710, 760, 51C, 147, 145, 122, 22H, 31H

Yamaha: CP4, DGX-620, DX7II-FD-E!, PF85, DX9

Roland: VR-09, RD-800

 

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