For lovers of B3 ( clonewheel players too ) only!!

[Delaware Dave]

[Jim Alfredson]

I still feel my idea was valid and though hard to read, it is laced about in this thread. Guitar players have always had the best of it.. added effects for B3 are a solid idea.

 

It has effects. That's what the chorus/vibrato is... an effect. That's what the Leslie is... an effect. That's what reverb is (which was standard in Hammond's tone cabinet almost from the beginning)... an effect.

 

If you want to run your clone/tonewheel through effects, go for it. But Laurens Hammond beat you to the idea in 1939.

[mate stubb]

I have variously used tape echo, wah pedals, and flangers on a Hammond at various times. I installed a chorus generator at one point.

 

Here's a wah wah example:

 

[video:youtube]

[Brettymike]

 

Incomplete Dave , where is the touch paper being lit on the oversized Guy Fawkes sky rocket at the end .

 

Brett

[JMcS]

In addition to the traditional effects listed by Jim above, the SK series as well as the XK-1c is loaded with extra effects:

 

EFFECT TYPE

Selects the Multi-Effect type. The following effects are available.

Tremolo, Auto Pan, Wah-Wah, Ring Mod., Phaser, Flanger, Chorus, Delay

 

The Chorus listed above is not the C/V but the usual chorus associated with effects pedals.

[Jim Alfredson]

In addition to the traditional effects listed by Jim above, the SK series as well as the XK-1c is loaded with extra effects:

 

EFFECT TYPE

Selects the Multi-Effect type. The following effects are available.

Tremolo, Auto Pan, Wah-Wah, Ring Mod., Phaser, Flanger, Chorus, Delay

 

The Chorus listed above is not the C/V but the usual chorus associated with effects pedals.

 

Good point. I haven't really dug into those yet (except the ring mod... too much fun).

[mak1457]

I was wondering about the chorus effect on the XK1-c. Is that possibly akin to the chorus generator on some of the early Hammonds? Same thing for tremolo? And is this how Hammond says you can have virtually any organ from any period? Perhaps one of these days I will be able to listen for myself when I get all my bills paid

[I-missRichardTee]

I still feel my idea was valid and though hard to read, it is laced about in this thread. Guitar players have always had the best of it.. added effects for B3 are a solid idea.

 

It has effects. That's what the chorus/vibrato is... an effect. That's what the Leslie is... an effect. That's what reverb is (which was standard in Hammond's tone cabinet almost from the beginning)... an effect.

 

If you want to run your clone/tonewheel through effects, go for it. But Laurens Hammond beat you to the idea in 1939.

 

if you read my words, you know I want to expand on Lauren and Don's brilliant effects... but keep being obtuse.. I owned a B3 likely when you were wetting your pants. Was buds with the owner of Trek, before he started Trek.

Played bass with Richard Tee when he was playing Hammond organ.. but thanks for the update

 

[I-missRichardTee]

 

Incomplete Dave , where is the touch paper being lit on the oversized Guy Fawkes sky rocket at the end .

 

Brett [/quote

Use the ignore option please.

[I-missRichardTee]

In addition to the traditional effects listed by Jim above, the SK series as well as the XK-1c is loaded with extra effects:

 

EFFECT TYPE

Selects the Multi-Effect type. The following effects are available.

Tremolo, Auto Pan, Wah-Wah, Ring Mod., Phaser, Flanger, Chorus, Delay

 

The Chorus listed above is not the C/V but the usual chorus associated with effects pedals.

 

You continue to be an encyclopedia of Hammond Suzuki information, thank you for your gracious presence on these forums.

[I-missRichardTee]

[q

[JMcS]

I was wondering about the chorus effect on the XK1-c. Is that possibly akin to the chorus generator on some of the early Hammonds? Same thing for tremolo? And is this how Hammond says you can have virtually any organ from any period? Perhaps one of these days I will be able to listen for myself when I get all my bills paid

 

The only way I have found to (approximately) reproduce the sound of a Chorus Generator is to have three organs MIDIed together so that one manual plays all three. Tune one of the MIDIed in organs a cent or two sharp and the other the same amount flat. Use the same one (8') (and maybe very little of a second (4')) drawbar on both of the CG organs. The CG frequencies won't be the same but they will be close. I would think the same thing could be done by running three instances of the same software organ.

 

While this isn't exactly the same as a CG, it is more adjustable and (IMO) sounded very nice.

[lightbg]

Was buds with the owner of Trek, before he started Trek.

 

How is Mike?

 

Jake

[I-missRichardTee]

We haven't spoken in a few years at least. He is a wonderful, kind, serviceful, honest, humble, scientific minded, human being. Knowing him, was my first experience of a truly scientific minded person who also loved Hammond Organs.

I used to have talks with him about modifying the bass on the B3 too !!! This was before MIDI. I think I wanted the lower manual down in the pedals!

When I bought my second Hammond here in S Cal, he highly recommended Bob Schleicher (sp) near Frisco/ Oakland CA.

Where is Rockaway NJ?

[lightbg]

To use a NJ phrase "Exit 35A on Rt. 80". Basically upper central Morris county. Back in the 70's I used to teach at the Altenberg Hammond Studio in Totowa where Mike was a tech....we spent a lot of time together. He had a store front in Union, NJ, but I know he's relocated out in western Jersey. Terrific guy with a great deal of engineering talent.......hence, Trek products.

 

Jake

[Delaware Dave]

Is that your new multi colored shirt, or is that one from the 80's? Goodnight dude.

Thanks for the compliment! I also found a picture that you can use for your Avatar.

 

klonk

[zukskywalker]

Great place this forum.

Seems to be a kind of a tradition vs. evolution thing going on here. The evolution thing IS going on and there have been "tricks" going on for ages that come and go, chorus being one of them, and it was implemented when? In the fifties?

So hear(yes hear) we are, a thousand years later, replicating the original technology, and some want even more?

Sacrilege, but, no problem. Sounds to me like you might want a "B3" with aftertouch. No problem.

Maybe re-route an FC7 pedal to control/vary Leslie speeds, chorus,vibrato,pan,PB(already available at the run switch-kidding),tilt,zoom, etc. No problem. All available if you dig in(Special kudos to JMcS for the midi reproduction of a Chorus Generator).

But then it is no longer a B3, it's something else really.

 

And, there was a mention of guitar players and the slather of FX at their disposal which of course include various "Leslie" FX.(Dirty little secret: Shhh,come close...many, many guitar players hide behind their fx,using slather as cover.)

Make no mistake about it, the Leslie is a perverse demonic machine that I adore, and that few really understand. Simply maturing "Beyond the Leslie" has been achieved by few, and the unadulterated joy of a "dry" B3 in the right hands is eternal bliss.

Disclaimer/divulge: Being a family man, I had to sell a perfectly good 122 that had been given to me and had to test it just before the buyers arrived. No Hammond, no keyboard on hand, but I happened to have a Pro-line Preamp switchbox and a little QY100 that I could at least do a quick signal test with.

HOLY SMOKES! If I could have stopped the sale I definitely would have. That 122 sounded utterly fantastic and had warped the tinker toy sequencer into a screaming little monster. This is all to say,...just the Leslie alone is phenomenal unto itself, ergo/alas the marriage of the children of Laurens and Don and now all the new offspring.

I think of the Leslie as the color. But can I sketch in black and white? I struggle, and you want more.

In all respect, my hat's off to you, go for it.

(So, in 7.1 I could pan/sweep/delay how many Leslie's?)

[I-missRichardTee]

Great place this forum.

Seems to be a kind of a tradition vs. evolution thing going on here. The evolution thing IS going on and there have been "tricks" going on for ages that come and go, chorus being one of them, and it was implemented when? In the fifties?

So hear we are, a thousand years later, replicating the original technology, and some want even more?

Sacrilege, but, no problem. Sounds to me like you might want a "B3" with aftertouch. No problem.

Maybe re-route an FC7 pedal to control/vary Leslie speeds, chorus,vibrato,pan,PB(already available at the run switch-kidding),tilt,zoom, etc. No problem. All available if you dig in(Special kudos to JMcS for the midi reproduction of a Chorus Generator).

But then it is no longer a B3, it's something else really.

 

And, there was a mention of guitar players and the slather of FX at their disposal which of course include various "Leslie" FX.(Dirty little secret: Shhh,come close...many, many guitar players hide behind their fx,using slather as cover.)

Make no mistake about it, the Leslie is a perverse demonic machine that I adore, and that few really understand. Simply maturing "Beyond the Leslie" has been achieved by few, and the unadulterated joy of a "dry" B3 in the right hands is eternal bliss.

Disclaimer/divulge: Being a family man, I had to sell a perfectly good 122 that had been given to me and had to test it just before the buyers arrived. No Hammond, no keyboard on hand, but I happened to have a Pro-line Preamp switchbox and a little QY100 that I could at least do a quick signal test with.

HOLY SMOKES! If I could have stopped the sale I definitely would have. That 122 sounded utterly fantastic and had warped the tinker toy sequencer into a screaming little monster. This is all to say,...just the Leslie alone is phenomenal unto itself, ergo/alas the marriage of the children of Laurens and Don and now all the new offspring.

I think of the Leslie as the color. But can I sketch in black and white? I struggle, and you want more.

In all respect, my hat's off to you, go for it.

(So, in 7.1 I could pan/sweep/delay how many Leslie's?)

 

Nicely and accurately put... traditional vs evolutional/ thanks. This explains the "resistance" I received in this thread.

I did not mention this, but.. my 2005 CX3 has more of the capabilities ( not all ) I want with its presets.

Bottom line. here is another way to say this.. I want a number of different hammond Leslie combinations at my finger tips.. not so much a destroying of what I love ( I love the darn B3 ) about the B3 esp Expression, chorus, various percussion options and Leslie- it's all the variations of these traditional B3 elements.. at my finger tips. My Mojo has many variations, but not easily at my fingertips, because the genius ( no sarcasm ) who designed it, was sticking somewhat closely to tradition. I want a number of hot rodded B3 under one roof.

And if most of you naysayers heard the B3 sounds that are in my head, you too would want it.

 

[Jazzmammal]

Tee, I love ya buddy, we've had some good conversations but are you off your meds or what?

 

Organists are the original "one man band" performers. You think a B3 has controls that are hard to master? You're questioning how a player finds time in the middle of a song to hit the C/V or percussion or whatever? Try these:

 

 

 

If you're an organist then it's your JOB to figure this all out and work on controlling that thing seamlessly into your performance. That's why people like good organists, they're busier than the proverbial one-armed paper hanger and they talk to each other saying "How the hell does he do that"?

 

If you are having problems with that then you know what the answer is.

 

Ok I see you posted while I was writing this so I'll add if what you want is a lot of extra stuff including hotrodded B3's then you want my Kurzweil PC3. It's got many stock factory shredded, mangled B3's to go along with traditional ones and everybody knows that Kurz is legendary for it's ability to allow the user to create their own amazing stuff.

 

If you want nonstock B3's then a Kurz is the way to go.

 

Bob

[Jim Alfredson]

I owned a B3 likely when you were wetting your pants. Was buds with the owner of Trek, before he started Trek.

Played bass with Richard Tee when he was playing Hammond organ.. but thanks for the update

 

What does that have to do with anything?

 

My issue with this entire thread is the statement that the dry output of a B3 is a torture device. Any instrument can sound bad. The dry output of a Hammond tonewheel is rather boring sounding, which is why they added chorus/vibrato, reverb, and Leslies to it. If you want to expand on that further with other effects, go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you. Have fun!

 

Thanks for editing your first post. It makes a bit more sense now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zukskywalker]

Not a hijack, but as an aside, and many thanks to Jazzmammal's reference to the monster concert organs...

As previously mentioned the B3 is a (portable)approach to a concert organ, clonewheels are an approach to electro-mechanical Hammonds, and more importantly the many trlple-tier and L shaped rigs that some of us use may unwittingly be a MORE effective approach all the way back to the "one-man band" concept of the concert organ.

My rig started out as a survivalist Hammond console emulation and quickly evolved into a three tier bit of a beast. I have often looked at it and said to myself that it's beginning to look like a concert organ, and that B3 emulation is way more than enough territory for me to cover. God forbid that I delve into pipe organs...even though some homage is still paid to them as I incidentally have a few dozen "pipe organ" patches at my disposal. But then nobody EVER uses any pipe organ sounds now do they? If the pipe organ was the original concert synthesizer, then aren't we now closer than ever to doing what they were trying to achieve with just air? And much more?

I'd love to hear from a concert organist today. What if they could have the "real" instrument at each one of those stops? Along with all of the subtle "articulations" that we now expect (flutter and embouchure for that flute trill).

As opposed to hearing an emulation/clonewheel, of an emulation/tone wheel, of an emulation/pipe organ, cutting to the chase and circling back to the original idea now armed with 21st century tech.

Hmm?

 

[Gary75]

Is that your new multi colored shirt, or is that one from the 80's? Goodnight dude.

Thanks for the compliment! I also found a picture that you can use for your Avatar.

 

klonk [/quote

 

Who is Lawrence Welk, and why did I have to click that link.

 

 

Must reach mind bleach....eurrghh

[Michael Wright]

Who is Lawrence Welk,

and why did I have to click that link.

Must reach mind bleach....eurrghh

1. Mr Welk http://cache2.artprintimages.com/LRG/27/2770/QVXTD00Z.jpg

2. No kidding

 

[Joe P]

I think IMRT wants a Hammond with assignable after touch.

[TrapperJack]

I doubt it.

 

I seriously doubt it.

 

The terms "assignable" and "after touch", like the term "effects", are a bit of a mystery to some of us. And it is all too hard to go and learn about them.

 

One of the most valuable qualities a person can have is to be "teachable".

 

John, (and I am trying to help you here), take five years off from this forum, and go and spend five hours each and every day on one instrument. Then, come back and play for us. For your sake, only yours.

[TrapperJack]

Ah, I'm wrong again.

 

You don't have to play for us.

 

If you have done the work, it will show.

[WesG]

Whoever asked "when did the get chorus?" -- with the BC, right after the model A.

 

It has, of course, evolved over the years; the lush but expensive chorus generator has been replaced with an intermixing of straight and vibrato signal from the vibrato scanner. The vibrato scanner appeared with the BV. Many model A, BC, and D organs were retrofitted with this circuit.

 

Wes

[I-missRichardTee]

Tee, I love ya buddy, we've had some good conversations but are you off your meds or what?

 

Organists are the original "one man band" performers. You think a B3 has controls that are hard to master? You're questioning how a player finds time in the middle of a song to hit the C/V or percussion or whatever? Try these:

 

 

 

If you're an organist then it's your JOB to figure this all out and work on controlling that thing seamlessly into your performance. That's why people like good organists, they're busier than the proverbial one-armed paper hanger and they talk to each other saying "How the hell does he do that"?

 

If you are having problems with that then you know what the answer is.

 

Ok I see you posted while I was writing this so I'll add if what you want is a lot of extra stuff including hotrodded B3's then you want my Kurzweil PC3. It's got many stock factory shredded, mangled B3's to go along with traditional ones and everybody knows that Kurz is legendary for it's ability to allow the user to create their own amazing stuff.

 

If you want nonstock B3's then a Kurz is the way to go.

 

Bob

 

Back atcha Do I think effects are hard to master... I don't know why you are asking that. mastery of anything takes "a long time".... I could be much better at controlling the effects on a B3, Booker T and Dr Lonnie Smith come to mind.. masters of "B3 effects".

My thread is about increasing the degree and depth of those effects. I do not understand why esteemed people like Jim and others are reacting to this notion? My originally poorly written opening thread, has hopefully been clarified by now!

[I-missRichardTee]

I owned a B3 likely when you were wetting your pants. Was buds with the owner of Trek, before he started Trek.

Played bass with Richard Tee when he was playing Hammond organ.. but thanks for the update

 

What does that have to do with anything?

 

My issue with this entire thread is the statement that the dry output of a B3 is a torture device. Any instrument can sound bad. The dry output of a Hammond tonewheel is rather boring sounding, which is why they added chorus/vibrato, reverb, and Leslies to it. If you want to expand on that further with other effects, go right ahead. Nothing is stopping you. Have fun!

 

Thanks for editing your first post. It makes a bit more sense now.

 

You are most welcome.

Jim Alfredson, you are one of the best B3 players on this board.. I honor that.

Not only do you play it as well as you do, but you additionally understand B3 in depth, and you understand other aspects ( MIDI, controllers, amps, DAW's etc ) of keyboards, that are over my head. Here comes the "but". I disagree that a SINGLE sustained note on a piano in any respect compares to a sustained naked B3 through an amp sans effects.

The piano sound is much more pleasing. First of all, it has a natural decay. The B3 does not. maybe that's the biggest point? It just seems to me a string of a piano is a more natural and more pleasing sound, than the B3.

When I want to play certain styles of music, I would strongly prefer the B3 though. And in another mood, the piano.

Thank you Jim.

[I-missRichardTee]

Not a hijack, but as an aside, and many thanks to Jazzmammal's reference to the monster concert organs...

As previously mentioned the B3 is a (portable)approach to a concert organ, clonewheels are an approach to electro-mechanical Hammonds, and more importantly the many trlple-tier and L shaped rigs that some of us use may unwittingly be a MORE effective approach all the way back to the "one-man band" concept of the concert organ.

My rig started out as a survivalist Hammond console emulation and quickly evolved into a three tier bit of a beast. I have often looked at it and said to myself that it's beginning to look like a concert organ, and that B3 emulation is way more than enough territory for me to cover. God forbid that I delve into pipe organs...even though some homage is still paid to them as I incidentally have a few dozen "pipe organ" patches at my disposal. But then nobody EVER uses any pipe organ sounds now do they? If the pipe organ was the original concert synthesizer, then aren't we now closer than ever to doing what they were trying to achieve with just air? And much more?

I'd love to hear from a concert organist today. What if they could have the "real" instrument at each one of those stops? Along with all of the subtle "articulations" that we now expect (flutter and embouchure for that flute trill).

As opposed to hearing an emulation/clonewheel, of an emulation/tone wheel, of an emulation/pipe organ, cutting to the chase and circling back to the original idea now armed with 21st century tech.

Hmm?

 

Ask me what my favorite instrument is.. I think it is the same "favorite" as Beethoven's the Pipe Organ. Man, would I love to have some of those pipe organ sounds available. I understand there is a whole technology to that end for emulations of pipe organs!