Playing piano in a country band

[Michael Wright]

Thanks again as I'm beginning to feel like I'm too critical of myself in all of this. But that's okay if some of you guys agree that I'm overplaying. I do sometimes but I'm just having fun and feel that it adds to the overall sound of the band.

I don't know if you are overplaying or not. I just know I can.

[ChiefDanG]

What if the OP's band is doing Ten Years After's "Comin' Home"? Then his job would be to clap the backbeat for 72 bars.

Just trying to be funny.

It's all about putting the song, and your band, in the best light. Your guitarist sounds like he's in it for himself. One band I'm in has a 70-year old picker, and he's great - burns up that rockabilly shit and knows how to back up my Jerry Lee imitation-makes me sound better than I am.

[jcazzy]

I guess my problem is that if me as a piano player needs to play like a rhythm guitar player, then that is something I can definitely do. Meaning that I can play an actual guitar. Maybe I should suggest that and see how it goes over. Maybe I will do that and tell the guitar player that he needs to do all the fills and leads while I play rhythm. Hmmm... what y'all think about that?

[ChiefDanG]

Don't know about that. Modern country has some great keys goin' on nowadays, hardly a song without Hammond, piano, or Wurly - or all three. Older stuff still has a lot of piano. Strumming chords on an acoustic can serve a song better than forcing in some keys, plus show some versatility in the band, and yourself! I say find a few songs that the acc.gtr would help, and use your keyboard skills like any other musician, play to make the band sound good.

As far as fills/leads and such-we map all that stuff out. For example, we just recently worked out "If You're Gonna Do Me Wrong.....". I do the intro and fills on the first verse, then nothing but light comping for the rest of the song. Lead guitar does fills in the second verse, and the solo. Pedal steel drives the bridges, fills the last verse, and does the outro. Nobody steps on anyone else, and we all keep clear of the vocal.

[timwat]

Hmmm... what y'all think about that?

 

All due respect, I think you're asking the wrong people...the real question is what does the rest of your band think about that.

[bluzeyone]

He's 78..just roll with it..especially if he hired you in..

[Brettymike]

I guess my problem is that if me as a piano player needs to play like a rhythm guitar player, then that is something I can definitely do. Meaning that I can play an actual guitar. Maybe I should suggest that and see how it goes over. Maybe I will do that and tell the guitar player that he needs to do all the fills and leads while I play rhythm. Hmmm... what y'all think about that?

 

John , suggest that idea about playing guitar , and see what he says about that.

 

Brett

[I-missRichardTee]

I recall playing with a guitar player, and it dawned on me the kind of "power" a nicely strummed guitar had going for it. In jazz, we have the classic Freddie Green strum sound, sometimes strum is only on a few strings. But a strum in and of itself, is difficult to mimic or create the effect of on a keyboard.

It is a beautiful thing.. to hear a nice strum sound.

Within the limits of a forum.. what notes do you pianists use when you want to roughly approximate the lovely and "powerful" rhythm effect of a strummed guitar, esp when the strummers, stops to take a solo?

[CEB]

Bust out the keytar!

[jcazzy]

I almost forgot that there are a few short videos of us playing at a local pub. The audio is not very good but it is there enough to show you what we sounded like when we were not dropping out when the other played lead. If you look at my hands when I'm playing rhythm, you'll see I'm not doing a whole heck of a lot.

 

EDIT: I'm also referring to the fills during the verses along with the leads. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Here's another short one with us swapping leads

 

[video:youtube]

[WesG]

It's the "following the solo" bit that set off alarm bells for me. When I'm playing a solo, I want the rhythm section being rhythmic with dead-simple harmonies.

 

ILRT suggested playing only the 1/3/5 of the chord, i.e. D F# A in D. I will often elide the 3rd of the chord entirely, especially when playing organ. Organ is already really fat.

 

When playing country piano (not my forte) I will also often grace in the 2nd->3rd ("country third") when playing a chord with a 3rd in it. If you are playing a dominant seventh, chord consider not playing the root at all in your right hand. If you are playing a 9 or 11th chord, consider just playing the 7 chord instead.

 

Country organ also has different settings than rock and jazz (at least when I play it). Lots of white drawbars. Infrequent percussion. Very little black, especially high black drawbars. Frequent use of the 1'. Something like 008836004 is where I tend to start off.

[JeffLearman]

With all due respect, Steve.. without "being there", why assume it's the older players rigidity, when it could be the pianists' parts, getting in his way, due to his learning curve of the genre and the way these guys play it. Fact is we do not know!

The fact that the guitar player drops out completely for piano solos is a pretty strong clue.

 

I almost forgot that there are a few short videos of us ... not dropping out when the other played lead

... what leads? The singer never shut up!

[jcazzy]

I almost forgot that there are a few short videos of us ... not dropping out when the other played lead

... what leads? The singer never shut up!

 

Sorry 'bout that! I did edit the post to say fill-ins also.

[bluzeyone]

You put the "pick axe" in working man blues! After seeing footage I would have to say that that band, or at least guitar player, is used to gigging as a three piece. He is covering alot of real estate! Though he is good he should realize you are too. I remember gigging with a trio for 5 years solid and then working with a 5 piece..Man it was boring and I had a "dead" left hand until I got used to it and treated splits alot more decorative. He is a good lead player but is used to having wiggle room. Your playing fun honky tonk music. All voices should be heard all times with dynamics of course. Times like this you gotta ask "what would Merle do? "

[SK]

It's not unusual for guitarists and keyboard/pianists to lay out for each other's solos.

 

But from your videos, I think both of you would benefit by playing during each other's solos - to keep the band sound from changing too much... but comping sparsely and softer under the solos. It's about being musically supportive of the solos - play just the notes that give the most support (unobtrusive common notes in the chords like the root, fifth, etc.) So either learn how to play together better, or just lay out for the other guy's solo.

[CEB]

The guitar player would **** his pants if I were to fill in for you and start doing honky tonk and barrelhouse fills.

 

The guitar player neds to be play the James Burton hammer 7th on WMB. That is what makes the tune and he still could do lead fills linking the phases but the rthyhm guitar part is critical during the verse.

[area51recording]

Well......he's 78. That could happen wether you're there or not....

[SK]

He's 78? ... then that's OK, nevermind

[synthizen2]

I'm currently in a modern country band that also does some of the old stuff, and my take on it is: it really depends on the song. Old classic country songs (like George Jones' "I'm A One Woman Man" -- a song we play) does have a slide guitar solo where the piano cuts completely out. And cuts out during the first half of the verse, then comps on those delicate high notes during the 2nd half of the verse "Patsy Cline style".

 

So, just go by what you hear, what you think makes the song sound complete. SOMETIMES it is entirely appropriate to cut complete out of a section of a song (not just solos)... and sometimes it sounds better with comping behind it. On parts of songs where you do cut out, you don't have to look stupid or goofy on stage doing nothing. Clap hands, get off your stool, engage the audience... stuff like that.

[allan_evett]

Yeah, it seems that the band leader is three-piece kind of guy. Still when there are two players they usually work to compliment one another for rhythm / lead trade-offs - unless the music calls for lead w/o backing rhythm. Things get trickier when the two rhythm players are behind the lead vocal; and that's most of the time. That's when overplaying can easily happen; been there, and done that.

 

Technically it comes down to tasteful playing, and having a good sense of fitting within the live, non-scored arrangement - as is typical for this type of band setting. That's something I've had to do frequently, and it involves adjustments from song to song, and within a song. Sometimes the rhythm key parts are most effective well blended, i.e. - not prominent. Other time there are signature rhythm patterns - with occasional fills - that are significant to the song. Sometimes the keyboard part is front and center - especially on ballads; though when covering the uptempo "Something Like That" (Tim McGraw) the piano is right out front on the downbeat, and has some cool moments throughout the tune. Fun song to play, btw; and it'd be good one to study.

 

I've learned a lot listening to studio tracks; like ksoper nrepose I've covered a lot of Steve's studio parts live ( though mostly with cover bands ). One of the first country covers I learned was "That's What I Like About You" (Trisha Yearwood). I remember stepping a bit on the rhythm guitar in the first band rehearsal. After I listened more thoroughly to the track, the lightbulb came on - so to speak. Matt Rolling's work on that song first introduced me to sparse, open rhythm playing - that still has a definitive place in the arrangement. That one's another good study piece; and there are some fun piano licks to pick up as well.

[uncledunc]

OP: No corny string line during the chorus of He Stopped Loving Her Today? Dude, that's the best part of the song. Go back and listen to the original. It's the musical hook.

 

In the other song, since you're soloing with one hand, couldn't you strum a guitar and then just reach out and play a piano solo or fill when it's your turn? Not only would it sound good, it would look impressive. I did notice in He Stopped Loving Her the guitar player was trading fill verses with you. That shows he knows what he's doing, in an old-school way. In the second song, he's sort of overplaying, but that's the style of playing for that tune. Listen to the original. Learn from this guy and play rhythm guitar when he solos, or use the omitted third method on piano to open it up.

 

You really should have another conversation with the guy, telling him you're going to try a new approach so he realizes you're willing to open up your ears and work with him. At this point, he's given up on you. (The older we get, the less likely we are to put up with musical BS on the bandstand. I'm quitting my new roots band for that very reason.)

 

I was going to mention the "having fun" comment you made earlier. I know half a dozen local players who "have fun" on their gigs. The only problem is, when they're playing C&W, no one else in the band is having fun because these technically proficient piano players are overplaying. Food for thought my friend.

[jcazzy]

One thing I'll say is that the guitar player is not the leader of the band. His son'n'law, the bass player, is. I've never discussed this with him yet. I really don't want this to evolve into a pissing contest as we really do have a decent sound and do have some fun with it. It's just that this has come up lately and I really don't understand where it is coming from. The guitar player and I are friends and talk about music quite a bit, so there is no animosity or anything like that.

 

I really do appreciate all of the advice here and will try to use bits and pieces of it to see if we can sort this thing out. Hope it doesn't get to where I'm beating a dead horse with this.

 

Thanks all!

[jcazzy]

OP: No corny string line during the chorus of He Stopped Loving Her Today? Dude, that's the best part of the song. Go back and listen to the original. It's the musical hook.

 

In the other song, since you're soloing with one hand, couldn't you strum a guitar and then just reach out and play a piano solo or fill when it's your turn? Not only would it sound good, it would look impressive. I did notice in He Stopped Loving Her the guitar player was trading fill verses with you. That shows he knows what he's doing, in an old-school way. In the second song, he's sort of overplaying, but that's the style of playing for that tune. Listen to the original. Learn from this guy and play rhythm guitar when he solos, or use the omitted third method on piano to open it up.

 

You really should have another conversation with the guy, telling him you're going to try a new approach so he realizes you're willing to open up your ears and work with him. At this point, he's given up on you. (The older we get, the less likely we are to put up with musical BS on the bandstand. I'm quitting my new roots band for that very reason.)

 

I was going to mention the "having fun" comment you made earlier. I know half a dozen local players who "have fun" on their gigs. The only problem is, when they're playing C&W, no one else in the band is having fun because these technically proficient piano players are overplaying. Food for thought my friend.

 

Thanks uncledunc. I only joined this band because the original keyboard player, who is better at country music than me, had to bow out because of his job demanded it. I was only a part time fill-in guy when he couldn't play and now I am the full time fill-in guy, as I will call myself. I really don't fancy myself as being that good of a musician as a whole because most of it has been the 'playing by ear' thing. The 'having fun' comment was only intended to mean that I enjoy playing with friends and the fact that it sounds good, not that I'm a better player than they are.

[Brettymike]

I almost forgot that there are a few short videos of us playing at a local pub. The audio is not very good but it is there enough to show you what we sounded like when we were not dropping out when the other played lead. If you look at my hands when I'm playing rhythm, you'll see I'm not doing a whole heck of a lot.

 

EDIT: I'm also referring to the fills during the verses along with the leads. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[video:youtube]

 

Here's another short one with us swapping leads

 

[video:youtube]

 

Hey John , everything sounds fine here to me , with no "musical sins" pulled - and very pleasant music too BTW , you're doing a great job.

Best Wishes. (keyboard could have been louder )

 

Brett

[Brettymike]

Here's the only video I've ever seen , where one of the muso's in an otherwise Fantastic band , is just cutting right out and is just plain mucking around. And he actually thinks he's being cool.

 

New Order "True Faith" >

 

Brett

[Threadslayer]

The only problem is, when they're playing C&W, no one else in the band is having fun because these technically proficient piano players are overplaying. Food for thought my friend.

If you aren't having fun playing in a country band why on earth would you do it?

[bluzeyone]

I do want to add the fact that you posted this concern illustrates a very thoughtful, considerate player. Which holds my saying to stand true.."Guitar players aren't bad. They just haven't evolved to keyboardist yet."

I remember a gig I played with a guitar player with no arms( no jive. He used extensions with open tuning) He was in his 70's. I was playing left hand bass behind him. We was used to solo gigs his whole life so he would hang out in a chord for extra measures when he wanted. Disasterous for a bass man! Anyhow..I just went with it. 70's and still taking a stage at honky tonks! Man I was burned on that scene by the time I hit 30! Lol! Tearin down @ 3:00 a.m. half drunk when its -20 degrees outside with

[bluzeyone]

..a couple hundred miles of road..blah! That's a young man's game..Hats off to them both!

[Bill H.]

Acoustics in that room are extremely live. That may have something to do with it. Traditional country guys like it really clean and sparse, and it's next to impossible in a room like that if there's more than just the basics going on.

 

I was in a country band with similar leanings for a few years in the 1990s. Both the lead guitar player and I would often stay out of the first half of each others' solos, then come in with some quiet fill work for the second half. It was a nice little contrast that gave each solo a bit of a build.

 

[uncledunc]

The only problem is, when they're playing C&W, no one else in the band is having fun because these technically proficient piano players are overplaying. Food for thought my friend.

If you aren't having fun playing in a country band why on earth would you do it?

 

Fun means different things to different people. For me, fun is leaving room for the guitar player, waiting my turn and then playing a tasty fill that gets a grin out of the other players. Back when we were doing She Stopped Lovin Her Today, I'd play that corny string line in the chorus and everyone in the band would look over at me and smile. And if we didn't have a high voice for the female singer melody during the spoken verse, I'd play that with the string patch. It's these little musical hooks that make a gig fun, plus the audience recognizes them from the record and thinks you're a better band than you really are.

 

I neglected to mention that I thought the piano playing in the YouTube clips was fine. The trick is staying invisible when the other guy is playing his fills or his solos. Some would see that as a restriction on their ability to express themselves, others would see it as a way to make the music sound better. Different strokes for different folks. I would agree that in modern country you can sometimes hear more aggressive piano parts, but this is old school, where space and simplicity rule.