jcazzy Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Having a bit of an issue with the country band that I play with. The guitarist, who is 78, insisted that I stop playing while he is taking a lead. I have noticed here lately that he is dropping out when I play a lead. When he first starting doing this a few weeks back, it seemed like I was left out there on my own when I took a lead. After the show was over the other night I told him that I was not used to the rhythm dropping out like that when someone takes a lead. Its almost like if he hears me playing that I am trying to step on his lead. I do not do that. I just try to play rhythm that embellishes what he is doing. Yes, sometimes when he does a run up or down, I do try to follow that with chords but I definitely do not intentionally try to step on his lead. Anyone have suggestions as to how to handle this without him getting peeved at me? Or do I do as he says and drop my hands when he is taking a lead? And another thing, is that how piano in a country band is played? Thanks. John Cassetty "there is no dark side of the moon, really. As a matter of fact it's all dark" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthaholic Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Tell him you want to decide the issue with fisticuffs. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/HandsomeTramp/smilies/04.gif No, that is not how piano is played in a country band. I would get the original versions of these songs, burn them onto a CD for him, and tell him "This is what I am going by, and the piano is there behind each of these songs." Don't argue with him, as he's prolly set in his thinking. Rather, put the onus on him to explain himself and his reasoning. The fact there's a Highway To Hell and only a Stairway To Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic numbers People only say "It's a free country" when they're doing something shitty-Demetri Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Muscara Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 78? Erm, I'm thinking you'll just have to deal with it if you're going to stay in the band. For your own edumification, I'd suggest recording some performances and see what you think. Does it sound weaker because he drops out when you solo? Vice versa? Try sneaking in some comping on a song or two when he solos and listen for clashes. Maybe your voicings are too complex (probably not - it is country!). If your suspicions are right, you could discuss it with him, but you're probably better off just dealing with it and knowing what you're playing is appropriate in the next situation. "I'm so crazy, I don't know this is impossible! Hoo hoo!" - Daffy Duck "The good news is that once you start piano you never have to worry about getting laid again. More time to practice!" - MOI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Wright Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I find it's quite easy to overplay some material, particularly ballads. Sometimes less is more, and playing nothing, everything....sometimes. "I cried when I wrote this song Sue me if I play too long" Walter Becker Donald Fagan 1977 Deacon Blues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobadohshe Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Do what he asks of you when he's soloing, tell him to do what you ask of him when you are soloing. Kawai C-60 Grand Piano : Hammond A-100 : Hammond SK2 : Yamaha CP4 : Yamaha Montage 7 : Moog Sub 37 My latest album: Funky organ, huge horn section https://bobbycressey.bandcamp.com/album/cali-native Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawback Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I've been waiting for Steve Nathan to say something, but then he's probably sitting it out until the 2nd page. :wink: ____________________________________ Rod Here for the gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CEB Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Our guitar player would do that on this one particular song where I took a 24 bar piano ride. I don't know I guess he thought it sounded better. I felt kind of naked .... which aint pretty. "It doesn't have to be difficult to be cool" - Mitch Towne "A great musician can bring tears to your eyes!!! So can a auto Mechanic." - Stokes Hunt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcazzy Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 I even talked to the drummer today and he felt the same way as I do. He said that it was harder for him when either of us drop out of the rhythm part when we should be playing, like the bottom (not bass) falls out. I probably do overplay sometimes and probably do start a solo when it should be his, but none of it is intentional. He is very critical of the rest of us sometimes but he forgets that he makes his share of mistakes also. Thanks for the input all. At least I don't feel like I'm completely wrong in my thinking. John Cassetty "there is no dark side of the moon, really. As a matter of fact it's all dark" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dongna Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 This is tough to analyze without hearing the players involved. But here's just a thought-- you've admitted sometimes maybe you tend to overplay a bit... maybe the guitar player is asking you to stop playing altogether because he doesn't think you're willing to or capable of dialing back some? Maybe overcompensate in dialing waaay back until you earn more of his confidence that you can do so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettymike Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Having a bit of an issue with the country band that I play with. The guitarist, who is 78, insisted that I stop playing while he is taking a lead. I have noticed here lately that he is dropping out when I play a lead. When he first starting doing this a few weeks back, it seemed like I was left out there on my own when I took a lead. After the show was over the other night I told him that I was not used to the rhythm dropping out like that when someone takes a lead. Its almost like if he hears me playing that I am trying to step on his lead. I do not do that. I just try to play rhythm that embellishes what he is doing. Yes, sometimes when he does a run up or down, I do try to follow that with chords but I definitely do not intentionally try to step on his lead. Anyone have suggestions as to how to handle this without him getting peeved at me? Or do I do as he says and drop my hands when he is taking a lead? And another thing, is that how piano in a country band is played? Thanks. Without hearing a recording of your band to see whats going on , it sounds like he has some mad and unusual ideas. If you're in a band , you don't stop playing for anything , you simply throttle back and simplify what you are playing while the other person does their solo. Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncledunc Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 ....Yes, sometimes when he does a run up or down, I do try to follow that with chords but I definitely do not intentionally try to step on his lead. .... There's your problem. Don't try to follow him with chords. You're messing him up. Just play a whole note chord on the downbeat so it blends with the bass, or hit chords on the two's and four's with the snare, or do the off beat thing on a shuffle (flat tire?) As a local pro bass player mentioned recently at a session, when the bass player and drummer are doing their job, no one notices them. When you're comping under a solo, no one should notice you either. If it takes not playing to accomplish that, then fine, don't play. And contrary to the post above, there are times when everything drops out except bass, drums and a lead line. It's called dynamics. I've been playing C&W for 35 years, and I spent the first 25 of those years overplaying (and I'm a minimalist!) so if you're still "green" it may take a while before you grasp the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettymike Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Well , of course everything "drops out" -- if the song calls for it uncle. Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiefDanG Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 What uncledunc says !! I've been playing country since early 90s and I pull it back both rhythmically and in chord-density. Behind a solo I will usually get into an acoustic- guitar mode, doubling the bass on 1 and 3 with my LH, and "strumming" simple chords on 2 and 4 with my right ( or whatever is appropriate ). I will also bring my guitar and play it instead of forcing a keys part into a song that doesn't have one. I'm no great guitar player, but if you learn how to play a G,C, and D chord, use a capo, you can add a lot to the sound. Sometimes I will drop out completely, for like an opening verse or something, but leaving no rhythm behind a solo sounds like a bad idea to me. Professional musician = great source of poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brettymike Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 That's what I was saying - leaving no rhythm behind a solo usually makes things sound hollow and incomplete. Brett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Great advice there from some of the less is more crowd. I don't know what chords you use. But if chord is eg D make sure D F# A is all you play. Are your progressions voice led? Play a little softer. Play much less busy. Play very simply without being boring. You are developing taste now. 78 year olds "can play", I know a 92 year old former Pro baseball player year old - . And I know another 92 bass player.. amazingly they can play, certainly country music.. which I have respect for btw. If you can send a short sample of you two playing, that would be all we need to figure out what's up. Older guys know this simple genre perhaps better than we think! They know swing better for sure. Notwithstanding the issue of "dropping out" the drummer agreed with you about.. it's a paradigm shift to just go with the new idea of yes, dropping out. It will expose all sorts of weaknesses if they are present. And when your turn to play, it will put a rhythmic hurting on you!! Your playing will have to learn how to compensate for that missing guitar. Just go with the idea of laying out. "Laying out", is not an insult necessarily. It is a valid practice of older jazz cats. Finally, unless he is a highly unmusical person, you will learn from him.. just drop the resistance. I speak from experience.. it's a paradigm shift ! You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksoper Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I agree with several of the posters. My guess is you're overplaying and he'd rather you play nothing than overplay. If you can follow along with the bass player exactly, play what they're playing in your left hand. It's really effective when done correctly. The right hand should be simple. Maybe a little more motion than whole notes, but not much more. I try to blend in with the acoustic guitar parts during solos. Two and four would be fine. In other words, make yourself invisible except during your own solos, fills, and the big ballads. And to get comfortable with the style, play what the studio guy played on the record. You can't go wrong there. 9 Moog things, 3 Roland things, 2 Hammond things and a computer with stuff on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 My guess is you're overplaying and he'd rather you play nothing than overplay. If you can follow along with the bass player exactly, play what they're playing in your left hand. It's really effective when done correctly. The right hand should be simple. Maybe a little more motion than whole notes, but not much more. I try to blend in with the acoustic guitar parts during solos. Two and four would be fine. In other words, make yourself invisible except during your own solos, fills, and the big ballads. Great advice. BTW Playing bass notes on piano is a tricky sensitive issue and playing chords that are ( invisible ) nearly identical to the guitar is a good thing to do. Learn guitars voicings as close as possible, not always literally, but often so. For further invisibility factor, play softer than you might think. You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksoper Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Playing bass notes on piano is a tricky sensitive issue and playing chords that are ( invisible ) nearly identical to the guitar is a good thing to do...[and] play softer... That's why I said "exactly." You can infuriate both the bass player and drummer if you don't get it right. Check out Pig Robbins, who gets it right every time. And yes, play softer. 9 Moog things, 3 Roland things, 2 Hammond things and a computer with stuff on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Nathan Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 He's 78. This is a personality issue, not a "how to play in a Country band" issue. I don't drop to 3 note whole notes, or purposely dumb down my playing during guitar solos. I play what ever I think enhances the solo. Sometimes that might be understated rhythm and others it might be full on syncopation or out front interplay. The best suggestion I heard here is to play him the records of whatever you're covering and show him that the keys don't "drop out" on the record. Otherwise, you may have to accept that he's an old geezer and unlikely to be flexible. Don't rush me. I'm playing as slowly as I can! http://www.stevenathanmusic.com/stevenathanmusic.com/HOME.html https://apple.co/2EGpYXK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncledunc Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Another approach is to not double the bass, but just play a higher root note (softly) so you can maintain the balance of the feel between your right and left hand, and play an open chord in your right hand, like a 5 - root - 5, leaving out the 3. This can mimic a guitar strum without taking up harmonic space being utilized by the melody or solo. Another thing you'll notice in C&W is that the fills usually echo the vocal line - as if you're making a musical comment on what the singer just sang. In other words, when the singer's singing, don't compete. Leave space. Generally speaking, the space you leave is more important than the notes you play - unless you're doing a line or pattern that holds the rhythm together and has to be there all the time. Yet another problem is not hearing the other player well enough to feel comfortable leaving space. Because you can't hear them, you pound away. Live recordings of the gig will help in this regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 He's 78. This is a personality issue, not a "how to play in a Country band" issue. I don't drop to 3 note whole notes, or purposely dumb down my playing during guitar solos. I play what ever I think enhances the solo. Sometimes that might be understated rhythm and others it might be full on syncopation or out front interplay. The best suggestion I heard here is to play him the records of whatever you're covering and show him that the keys don't "drop out" on the record. Otherwise, you may have to accept that he's an old geezer and unlikely to be flexible. With all due respect, Steve.. without "being there", why assume it's the older players rigidity, when it could be the pianists' parts, getting in his way, due to his learning curve of the genre and the way these guys play it. Fact is we do not know! You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 He's 78. This is a personality issue, not a "how to play in a Country band" issue. I don't drop to 3 note whole notes, or purposely dumb down my playing during guitar solos. I play what ever I think enhances the solo. Sometimes that might be understated rhythm and others it might be full on syncopation or out front interplay. The best suggestion I heard here is to play him the records of whatever you're covering and show him that the keys don't "drop out" on the record. Otherwise, you may have to accept that he's an old geezer and unlikely to be flexible. With all due respect, Steve.. without "being there", why assume it's the older players rigidity, when it could be the pianists' parts, getting in his way, due to his learning curve of the genre and the way these guys play it. Fact is we do not know! Because with all due respect, Tee, Steve is our Bruce Dickinson ("I've got a fever, and the only prescription...is more cowbell"). Steve puts his pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us...the difference is, after he puts his pants on... .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 haha haha Bruce D is my god You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I-missRichardTee Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 BUT, Bruce D aka Steve N, operates in a very different world than the OP. The rules in the studio are ideal, in my experience; when playing with mere mortals, I believe, adjustments need to be made. Steve differs, cool.. I will agree with Steve if he swears he will give me country western keyboard lesson! Should he, I promise I will share it with you all !! Hail Bruce D You don't have ideas, ideas have you We see the world, not as it is, but as we are. "One mans food is another mans poison". I defend your right to speak hate. Tolerance to a point, not agreement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opdigits Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Search for and listen to songs Floyd Cramer played on. A lot. Nobody told me there'd be days like these... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustar Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Here's what I've learned playing country: Rarely do I ever play on "1". It sounds heavy handed to me. Go to youtube and listen to Vern Gosdin recordings and performances to see how this is put into practice. Yamaha P-515, Hammond SK1, Casio PX5s, Motif ES rack, Kawai MP5, Kawai ESS110, Yamaha S03, iPad, and a bunch of stuff in the closet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ksoper Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Lots of good points here. We don't really know the situation without hearing the band, so broad generalizations are being made. I've played a bunch of Steve's parts on stage behind the original artists. Most of the time the parts are clear and can be copied exactly. Sometimes they're buried behind the guitars and vocals. A skilled player can extrapolate a part from the way the more prominent parts are played--but within reason. In a particularly live room or large venue I will scale the comping back to keep the mid-range mud to a minimum. I've been on a tour where the band had two keyboard players, two lead guitar players, steel, two acoustics, fiddle, bass, and drums. It required a light touch. I wouldn't call it dumbing down, but my playing was certainly respectful of all the other instrumentalists on stage. 9 Moog things, 3 Roland things, 2 Hammond things and a computer with stuff on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcazzy Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 There are a lot of times that I try to mimic what a rhythm guitar does when playing in what ChiefDan suggested, 1/3 bass 2/4 chord. I've actually played guitar for just about as long as I have piano which is 50 years. No, that does not qualify me as being a great, let alone good, musician but I do know a few things about playing. One other thing the guitar player does not like for me to do is mimic the bass line with my left hand. Since I really don't know if I should or not, some of you guys can tell me to leave it off and I am fine with that. I'm about at the point and since I may buy a Hammond XK-1C organ, is to use my Korg CX-3 organ to play chords on most of the songs we play and then where there is a piano solo, play it on the piano. Don't see how he could fuss there as I would keep the volume down low on the organ. Thanks again as I'm beginning to feel like I'm too critical of myself in all of this. But that's okay if some of you guys agree that I'm overplaying. I do sometimes but I'm just having fun and feel that it adds to the overall sound of the band. John Cassetty "there is no dark side of the moon, really. As a matter of fact it's all dark" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timwat Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 ...but my playing was certainly respectful of all the other instrumentalists on stage. Regardless of genre, isn't this the definition of ensemble musicianship? .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcazzy Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 ...but my playing was certainly respectful of all the other instrumentalists on stage. Regardless of genre, isn't this the definition of ensemble musicianship? +1 - It's not about any one musician in a band but the collective whole! John Cassetty "there is no dark side of the moon, really. As a matter of fact it's all dark" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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