Playing piano in a country band

[CEB]

A friend of mine was an air drummer.

 

This show band sequenced the whole show. It was driven by a Korg 01/w fd I believe.

 

On top the Korg they played various instrumentation but the drums were all sequenced. He was the stereo typical rock star drummer. He has the look and the prensence. He was a Hell of of a drummer also. His drums were not mic'd or anything. He just played along with the drum tracks but nothing went FOH.

 

It was one of the best paying gigs he had played up to that time. LOL!

[JeffLearman]

Cue the Kanker Query.

[George88]

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry.

[ChiefDanG]

If your performance is "air", does the gig pay in "air" also?

[t9cstudio]

But in any case, if my part is to not play, that's what I do: I do not play. I sit attentive, enjoying, smiling, maybe nodding my head or moving my body to the beat, ready to come in.

 

Damn right LearJeff!

My story is I started playing fiddle a few years before the Urban Cowboy revolution hit Houston. I was familiar with bluegrass and Old Time fiddle, but I wanted to play country, and the timing couldn't have been better for me. Learned Cotton-Eyed Joe & Orange Blossom, and I'm in like Flynn! For the old standards of the 60's-70's I wasn't there and I overcompensated and played all the time.

 

Well, I got a gig with a band that had a steel man who was one of the most respected (and hard-assed) steelers around. The band was awesome, but he decided how parts were to be played and that was that. He went easy on me for a few gigs, then he started looking at me and nodding his head at me not to play...I didn't understand. Then on break he railed on me telling me to do it right or get the hell out. I was devastated.

 

So his son (bass man) brought me to his house after the gig to listen to some Jones, Bush, Price, Thompson, OLD willie & Waylon...all the Texas honky-tonk heroes of the time. He literally had to stand by the record player, drop the needle and lift it where the fiddle started and stopped. Finally, I understood. But I didn't get everything perfect as old habits are hard to break (yes, a cheap Hank Jr. reference). So, within a week or two I got fired.

 

But I was determined to do it right, so I immersed myself in honky tonk country records completely. I think within a year I was learning that it's actually a requirement that when another player is filling or soloing, that I just stand there, or groove with them while holding the fiddle at my chest.

 

For years afterward I was complemented by other sidekicks that I played "when I was sposed to" and that's why they liked my playing.

 

A few years ago I ran into that steel man at the grocery store and shook his hand thanking him profusely for "teaching me how to play fiddle". He was all like WTF you talking about? So I reminded him of the night he reprimanded me. He was surprised but I was thankful.

 

Laying out is the hardest thing to do as a band musician, but mostly, it's the right thing to do. Not always, but mostly.

 

 

[jcazzy]

I have full respect for the guitar player but I don't understand why he wants to be a ZZ Top band when he plays lead. Air piano. Give me a break! If my playing is that bad, someone just tell me. I'm old enough to suck it up. Yes the audio in the clips are bad. I believe I stated that in the beginning.

 

missTee, if you are a bass player, leave the keys to the ones that play them. Just saying my friend,

[jazzdoc52]

if your getting paid, play the way the dude wants you to play. if he wants you to lay off, have a drink and dont play while he plays. its not a big deal.

[Michael Wright]

From what I heard, you're doing fine.

[I-missRichardTee]

There are too many extreme statements made here. I highly doubt anyone expects you to constantly except for solo, play nothing. That is an extreme.

 

I said Nathan is in an ideal set up in a studio. But comments were made about one of the aspects, the acoustics of a studio versus a bad sounding room.. overlooking what I said about playing with players that have not yet found a groove.

The one amazing thing about session players, is they ALWAYS find a groove, just about instantly. Players who are not of that calibre- do NOT do so.

That is why I say, you have to give guitar player a wide berth to appreciate his "musical space". As people hear themselves the way they want, they tend to play at their best.

I am saying play in such a way that you bring the best out in the guitar player.

This will teach you musical things I cannot express. Just make him sound good to himself.

TO do this follow some of the more minimalist advice given here.

or ignore my words!

[Jazzmammal]

Wow. When the best qualified person tells you you're doing it wrong, you might want to listen and learn.

 

I have all respect for Steve. I may have even met him one time. But, who says he's the best qualified? I'm not a big name dropper around here but I've done some serious shit too. Here's just one name, Jerry Cole. Steve probably knew him because he was in the original Champs, was inducted into the Rockabilly HOF, was Roger Millers MD, played on 147 gold records, etc, etc. I was good friends with him and gigged with him off and on for years. Overall Jerry was the best guitarist I've ever played with and I've played with some good ones.

 

Nashville isn't the only place with a bunch of killers. I'm in LA, there's plenty of session player monsters here too and I've played with my share of them. I know what I'm talking about and not only that I already said this in my previous post before Steve decided to jump in my face:

 

But of course when you're up at this level anything and everything is done and done well because everybody is a monster player and knows exactly how to fit in. That level of player is not what we're talking about here. This thread is about a local bar band and what's going on there is very common and I'm just laying out some suggestions for those guys down in the local trenches.

 

There's lots of names I could drop around here but nobody cares anyway so I won't. Bottom line is Steve has a tendency to get a bit carried away with himself even though he certainly is a good solid player with big time experience. I'm just saying he's not the only one. Plus I looked him up I'm older than he is, so there!

 

Bob

[JeffLearman]

if your getting paid, play the way the dude wants you to play. if he wants you to lay off, have a drink and dont play while he plays. its not a big deal.

That's right, if the dude hired you as a sideman, where it's his gig and you're working for him.

 

But he didn't, it isn't, and you're not. You're just as entitled to your musical opinion as he is to his. Ideally, we work these things out like adults.

[mate stubb]

Well, I'm puzzled. If you are that experienced, why in hell are you asking for our advice? Your first post indicated you weren't sure how things were done in a country band.

[jcazzy]

Well, I'm puzzled. If you are that experienced, why in hell are you asking for our advice? Your first post indicated you weren't sure how things were done in a country band.

I'm not sure I made it very clear in the original post but I was never asked to drop out by the guitar player when he played lead until recently, thus my question. I really don't have a problem dropping out but was confused by his recent request.

 

I guess I should just comply with what he wants and have a drink while he's doing his thing. Hope I don't forget to come back in after we've played a few songs!

[Brettymike]

If he's definitely paying you , and you're happy to do that - just do nothing and have a drink even .

If I felt it was encroaching on MY music spirit thing , I would be weighing up Pay verses SATISFACTION - being most important.

 

Brett

[I-missRichardTee]

Ask guitar player for the candid truth Why and in more detail when too

[jcazzy]

Ask guitar player for the candid truth Why and in more detail when too

Sorry for my rant earlier. What you are saying will be what it gets to. I will give him his space and let him tell me if he likes it or not. I'm sure the bass player, who is the leader of the band, will have a say-so in this also.

[I-missRichardTee]

Every dang week, in one of the 5 or 6 bands I play in, I have to deal with mimicking a bass part or keyboard and bass part, in a band that is far from playing with studio level players. On top of that frustration ( for me ) one of the players is kind of obsessive about mirroring the recording. I have two completely opposing ( think paradox ) feelings about his desire to cop the recording.

On one hand these players are not even close to that level.

On the other, it IS a laudable, good idea.

it is like an ideal, one that cannot be matched.

In limited amount of time to rehearse, I say you have to cut bait, and just go for what cards ( the players on that bandstand ... not play make believe to emulating the recording ) you have been dealt.

I have been torn over this paradox for many years. The more I live, the more I lean towards making the best music,/ groove, with reality.. that band.. not the imaginary guys on the recording.

I may not be expressing this well, but trust me, I am a very good player in many genre's ( I know my weaker areas, to name a few - reggae, hip hop, funk could be better too ) I know how to groove, I know how to make the best of what cards I have been dealt aka the band I am with. I do it, well.

If you get too tied up with copping what's on the CD, you will be frustrated, and you will not really cop that groove, that vibe. Plus recording/ mixing is absent, that eg makes a guitar sound as big as a house, etc etc.

The more I play, the more I have to succumb to the reality of making the cats I am playing with sound as good as possible.

[I-missRichardTee]

In a band of higher level players, you can play more directly from the style of the recorded version of the tune you are doing.. up to you how literally you copy that player.

The object in most any genre, whether with top players mid level or less, is the same... play harmoniously with them. It is simply much easier to play with top level player. Matter of fact it is a joy.

I said play harmoniously... that's the tricky part to articulate.

chord voicing is one way

and rhythmically is the other main way

and your timbre is another aspect to being harmonious.

WHILE you are acquiring this skill on these arbitrarily 3 categories.. you need to be cool about it. It TAKES TIME to learn this art of being rhythmically harmonius with guitar bass and drums.

Ditto for the voicings you use

and your tone choice(s)

Since it takes time to do it well, that is the time you lay out, or lay low, or play more minimalistically during parts YOU feel are not quite gelling

[jcazzy]

I am far away from being a studio level musician. Like you, Tee, there are certain genre's of music that I cannot claim to be proficient at. I'm more of a rocker and also play in a classic rock band but I do have this gig with the country band. Again, this might be part of the problem. I have never dropped out of playing in a rock band except when the keys actually drop out. Plain and simple. That's why I'm having a bit of a problem as I said in my original post.

 

Again, I appreciate the help here.

[I-missRichardTee]

Say you ARE the better player eg than the guitarist, that is tricky.. in that case you feel you do not need to lay low... yet if you play full dead on as Nathan suggests, what if guitarist doesn't quite get it, then what? You can try for a while to be dominant with strong parts, but if guitarist still doesn't get it.. I think, once again, you have to back off.. It is frustrating, and in a perfect world you would not have this problem.. but it's not, is it!!?

[I-missRichardTee]

I am far away from being a studio level musician. Like you, Tee, there are certain genre's of music that I cannot claim to be proficient at. I'm more of a rocker and also play in a classic rock band but I do have this gig with the country band. Again, this might be part of the problem. I have never dropped out of playing in a rock band except when the keys actually drop out. Plain and simple. That's why I'm having a bit of a problem as I said in my original post.

 

Again, I appreciate the help here.

 

It has been tough, but I am working a lot now.. I am a good sub, for the reasons I just tried to lay out.. I make other cats feel comfortable.

I check out their grooves, their tone ( is it too bassy ) and their harmony and how quick on their feet they are to adapting to MY harmony.. The lesser a player the more you have to play to him.. since he is inadequate to playing to you!! SOMETIMES I do boss the beat around.. so to speak saying, "enough, now it's going to be my way, so hang on children". But generally I do not.

use this time to get better gradually at country genre... it is a great opportunity.. I envy you.. because I like country and do not play it hardly ever. Though today I played Tulsa Time !!! What genre is that one lol

[jcazzy]

Probably not better at country than he is, but I know (even at his age) that I've been playing music as long as he has.

 

I think I'll do what he wants and see how it goes, especially with the other members of the band. May be a bit hard to do but at least I'll have extra time to take a drink!

[I-missRichardTee]

The art of teaching, is something I've come to greatly respect, because i gradually see, how difficult it is to communicate an idea, especially in a brief form.

I am known as a "rambler" at Keyboard Corner.. that is my failing. Let me try one more time to reduce to an elegant "formula", what it is I believe about playing esp with "lesser than you" ( subject to relativity ) , players.

When in any band.. FIRST conform ( learn how to conform - including appreciating the beauty of this approach ) to the music around you. AFTER you have achieved that harmonious conformity, THEN perhaps try being a little creative.

 

Over the years I have developed into being a popular sub, in my area. It takes a lot of experience to eg ( this week ) play 3 hours of German October fest music... a Blues jam, jazz gig, pop music, new age music, Latin jazz... all in the same week.

I have played with some of the best musicians, and also some of the worst; usually mid tier players.

The fact I rely solely on performing to survive, has the past 10 years, pushed me ( on occasion ) to play with some rank amateurs.

I am thinking of a particular situation, where a better musician ( mid tier ) was really disliking playing with an amateur of doubtful talent; a great guy, but his playing needs much improvement!

Well, when the mid tier player, no longer wanted to deal with it, I would get the call to play with this amateur. This experience is when I rapidly figured out what I am advising you ( even though your guitar "geezer: is better than my unidentified, amateur ), keep it simple. Find out what HIS chords were, and EXCLUSIVELY play His chords.. never, ever introduce a new chord to rock his world. Same thing with his rhythmic conception.. do not force him out of his world. HARMONIZE with his rhythmic concept.. make him sound as good as possible in every sense, musically speaking.

 

This experience really opened my eyes to playing with various players whose style or rhythm or harmony was not my cup of tea. I found that this approach made him "happy", and made the best of the situation. It also made me a popular player in assorted situations.

In his case, I doubt I ever went beyond the CONFORM FIRST stage, "creativity" was a very narrow or non existent possibility around him, instead just make him feel as unrestricted as possible, by playing notes that make his playing sound the best.

I could stay home, and avoid the gig, or hate every minute with him, or do what I suggest. It takes effort to learn a "lesser" ( not person !!! ) players "language".. this was a surprise to me. I ended up bringing this approach to mid level players as well.

You can't force music... aka impose your music on others in band. Generally it is not common for me to bump into like minded players.. so I can hate playing music, resist the experience, or willingly conform to what amounts to "reality".

[KeyMoe]

I agree with Steve......

 

Also my belief - "A good musician is one who knows when not to play......"

[Brettymike]

I agree with Steve......

 

Also my belief - "A good musician is one who knows when not to play......"

 

I also agree with Steve , and the quote says it all >

 

A good musician is one who knows when NOT to play.

 

That would be 2nd to learning how to play the instrument.

 

Brett

[Steve Nathan]

Name dropping?

Bite me?

Give me a break

 

The OP asked

is that how piano in a country band is played?

 

I believe I am qualified to answer that question. I don't even think it is arrogant to think that by personal experience, I might even be the most qualified person on this forum to answer that question.

 

To be clear, I did not suggest (as some have gathered) that you should "always play more". I tried to indicate that "Less is More", while generally good generic advice, it is not a "rule". Better players have trained their ears, and make educated decisions about how much or how little to play, often varying greatly from bar to bar. The skill is in feeling the different needs throughout..

Your job (in this case), is to help the soloist get to the top of the mountain (so to speak). You can pull up a chair at the bottom and leave him on his own, or you can help him climb. My opinion is that it is almost always better to get behind and push.

 

And the idea that this is not good advice because the players are not professionals is also in my opinion nonsense.

I don't believe anyone here would expect advice from Chick or Herbie on Jazz comping, or Joey D or Jim Alfredson on B3 technique to come with the caveat "Don't try this if you are an amateur".

 

 

And for Dude....

 

Lots of folks agreed with you (laying out) and I didn't argue with them. You however pointed to some performance video and said, "see how the piano player stops playing....." (when he clearly did not stop playing) to "prove" the superiority of your advice. It was factually wrong, and I said so. We're all entitled to our own opinions. No one is entitled to their own facts.

 

I've been hanging on this forum for a while now, and many times, I have been wrong about one thing or another. Before long, Linwood, Jazz+, Dave Ferris, Jim and many others (I miss Sven), came along to point out my errors. It's really not that hard to say "I was wrong" about something. Everybody goofs up once and a while.

 

[clpete]

I believe I am qualified to answer that question. I don't even think it is arrogant to think that by personal experience, I might even be the most qualified person on this forum to answer that question.

 

To be clear, I did not suggest (as some have gathered) that you should "always play more". I tried to indicate that "Less is More", while generally good generic advice, it is not a "rule". Better players have trained their ears, and make educated decisions about how much or how little to play, often varying greatly from bar to bar. The skill is in feeling the different needs throughout..

Your job (in this case), is to help the soloist get to the top of the mountain (so to speak). You can pull up a chair at the bottom and leave him on his own, or you can help him climb. My opinion is that it is almost always better to get behind and push.

 

+100

 

In the OPs situation it would be expected for keys to cover rhythm behind guitar solos as there is nobody else. A 4 piece country band cant play the all parts on a Nashville record. The guitar and key players need to work together by covering what they can.

 

IMHO: Either the OP is overplaying, playing something that doesnt fit or the guitar player just doesnt like keyboard as a rhythm/backing instrument. The guitar player may be used to playing 3 piece, or most likely, with another guitar player. Im not saying the OP overplays, but its very easy to do it. This goes for stepping on the singer, guitar solos or the bass. This can make it hard for a player to solo over. Not playing is not the answer. Playing the right thing is.

 

BTW: There are some posts in this thread that are blowing Smoke Rings in the Dark.