Stereo vs. Mono revisited

[WestHarp]

Here's an interesting article on the topic by Dave Rat (FOH sound guy for the Red Hot Chili Peppers):

 

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/mixing_beyond_stereo_delving_deeper_into_aspects_of_sound_perception/

 

He says that stereo mixing with slightly different signals for the L and R channel (eg: a stereo piano sound, two different mics for one guitar amp panned L and R, etc.) makes room in the perceptual center and allows for clearer vocal sound.

[JeffLearman]

Here's an interesting article on the topic by Dave Rat (FOH sound guy for the Red Hot Chili Peppers):

 

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/mixing_beyond_stereo_delving_deeper_into_aspects_of_sound_perception/

 

He says that stereo mixing with slightly different signals for the L and R channel (eg: a stereo piano sound, two different mics for one guitar amp panned L and R, etc.) makes room in the perceptual center and allows for clearer vocal sound.

I agree.

 

Stereo cues help us differentiate the various sources much better.

 

I remember the first time I used a pitch shift doubler to synthesize a stereo image from a mono mix. This was a bucket-brigade device that was very helpful back in the bad old days of 4-track tape recording.

 

I had a bass/drums/keys mono submix on one channel. I'd just bought the PSD and plugged it in. I was *freaking amazed* at the result. In my experience at that time, every effect one added to a mono submixed signal resulted in a bit more mud, making different parts a bit less distinct. In this case it wasn't just the opposite, it was the opposite to extremes.

 

What does a PSD do? Well, if you're familiar with stereo chorus, you know how it makes a rich (though artificial) stereo image, and swirls it around. PSD does much the same thing, only without the swirling. Each frequency gets a different delay between left and right ear. Combine this with LR phase cancellation that happens using speakers and it fabricates two other dimensions (up/down, back/front). The result is that each frequency gets its own location in space. So, while each instrument is spread, each instrument seems to find its own place in the artificial image. It's magical!

 

Of course, it's an entirely artifical image and nothing like a real soundstage, and there are other disagreeable artifacts -- you can't send any clear sustained high notes through it or you hear the fade splices clearly and unflatteringly (I won't go into what the fade splices are, but they happen 2 to 5 times a second, IIRC).

 

My point is that the image, artificial as it was, made it far easier to mentally identify each instrument and what it was doing, versus the mono original. And it created space in the center for the vocals.

 

Unfortunately, while I've used some PSD on DAWs, they work using a different algorithm, using FFT rather than a delay line. This avoids the fade splices, but loses the phase information from the original, and thus while it does create a stereo image, it's just not as crisp, rich, and vivid as the old bucket brigade device did. Well, either that or my ears aren't as good any more! I wish my "friend" hadn't "borrowed" the MXR PSD never to return it. (grr)

[AnotherScott]

Here's an interesting article on the topic by Dave Rat (FOH sound guy for the Red Hot Chili Peppers):

 

http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/mixing_beyond_stereo_delving_deeper_into_aspects_of_sound_perception/

 

He says that stereo mixing with slightly different signals for the L and R channel (eg: a stereo piano sound, two different mics for one guitar amp panned L and R, etc.) makes room in the perceptual center and allows for clearer vocal sound.

We're keyboardists. We don't care about helping the lead singer sound better. He already gets all the girls.

[JeffLearman]

oh right, sorry, I forgot!

[Iconoclast]

You don't need a big spread in speakers to get a stereo effect. It's a total misnomer that half the room needs to get the L and half the R signal.

 

I have a stereo keboard amp and a stereo PA. If you're standing close to the stage you'll get both channels from the amp. If you're standing farther back, the PA will start to cover. From most parts of the room, both channels will be distinguishable.

 

I also play guitar and have a stereo guitar rig. Even with both guitar amp speakers right next to each other I can tell the difference between mono and stereo patches.

 

And in the end, if I am the only one who can hear the difference, then that's enough. We (as a community) will argue endlessly about nuances that can be heard only by us, and rarely by the audience. But in the end, IF IT EFFECTS OUR PERFORMANCE, THE AUDIENCE WILL HEAR IT.

 

I like stereo, therefore I play better in stereo. For me that is enough to settle this argument.

[kanker.]

And in the end, if I am the only one who can hear the difference, then that's enough.

This is my favorite argument - "I don't care if it sounds like total shit in the house as long as I'm happy. The audience will see my happiness, even though they can't decipher a thing I'm playing, and therefore my happiness alone will make them happy by proxy." Great thought process there

[JeffLearman]

Kevin, you didn't sound like total shit, even though I heard you in stereo!

[Polkahero]

I finally took my Yamaha Stagepas 300/Soundcraft Notepad mixer to band rehearsal last night and got that set up rather than just running two line-outs from my Kurz PC2R to our PA. I place each Stagepas speaker as wedges on either side of me and pan the sound using the Soundcraft which I place on top of my Alesis QS8. The difference in sound was like night and day compared to before. Stereo imaging makes a huge difference especially for acoustic piano and string sounds which I use a lot of. It definitely affects the way I play, I'm more inspired when my sound is happening onstage.

[AnotherScott]

I see no problem playing in stereo on stage for your own enjoyment as long as you assure that the house is still getting a good quality sound (whether that's mono, or, perhaps if you're sure it will work in your situation, stereo). There's no reason you can't have the sound that makes you most satisfied on stage while also providing perfectly good sound to the audience (though you may have to expend a little extra effort to make it happen). I don't think anyone has ever suggested that you pick only the sound you want on stage at the expense of letting it go to "total shit" in the house. It may be your favorite argument, but it's a straw man argument.

[kanker.]

Kevin, you didn't sound like total shit, even though I heard you in stereo!

Just mostly

[DanL]

I see no problem playing in stereo on stage for your own enjoyment as long as you assure that the house is still getting a good quality sound (whether that's mono, or, perhaps if you're sure it will work in your situation, stereo). There's no reason you can't have the sound that makes you most satisfied on stage while also providing perfectly good sound to the audience (though you may have to expend a little extra effort to make it happen). I don't think anyone has ever suggested that you pick only the sound you want on stage at the expense of letting it go to "total shit" in the house. It may be your favorite argument, but it's a straw man argument.

 

+1. You are still giving the FOH a good signal, not something that sounds like shit. If it helps you play better, then it's going to help.

[Theo Verelst]

Don't you guys know that even for not moderate venue mixers there are like at least dozens of ways to "play" with the stereo or more-channel idea? I mean even in the 80s there were affordable mixers for medium small PAs with quality multi-effects built in like stereo widening, short and long revs, even enclosure-rev type of dimension-enhancing and the easy tricks like panning an instrument but not overdoing the width and enhancing that with effects.

 

I suppose the discussion is more about some morons having put the wrong effects "in" certain stereo samples and nobody knows how to get them reasonable anymore.

 

Some not-too-hard workarounds:

 

1. Use a per channel eq with different settings per channels to get rid of the most annoying interfering frequency bands, or split those bands out over the channels

 

2. add appropriate short (for instance "ambience" type of effect to the sound, which can probably be stereo without change to mask to most prevalent stereo errors

 

3. Similar with a slight chorus effect, because when that effect is of suitable quality will send a nice average of sound into the audience, even though of course generally the effect doesn't match a piano sound very well

 

4. Make sure that the compression and limiting used per your input on the PA or your own stereo rig and overall on the PA don't work much or when they do, don't mess up your stereo image but enhance it (a well tuned stereo delay can help this)

 

5. If the PA or your mixer has a possibility to change the stereo image or "warmth" of the sound, then for certain instruments the solution lies in using those right

 

6. If you set up your amplification yourself, beware of where you put your speakers, and if necessary use a small stereo base by putting the speakers closer together than a Hifi system would be like, possibly turned towards each other instead of directed outward. Some of the obvious stereo "drone" errors are prevented that way.

 

 

And lastly: most mixers have more than "binary" (on/off) controls, so reduce panning width, maybe mix in one channel more than the other, and check in the performance space (to begin with in the middle of the PA, somewhere near but not at the front row) wether your sound is good, to begin with.

 

[RJ.keyman]

After years of Kanker's influence, I've moved to all mono. FOH usually wants and runs mono; I avoid the patches that don't sound good in mono. There's still plenty of patches to choose from.

[Bill W]

I have played a lot of gigs in stereo and sometimes still do, but I have no problem going mono. I only use the house PA and a single monitor at any gig, so it wouldn't matter from my perspective and the crowd certainly couldn't care less.

[dongna]

I'm not a gigging musician, so I have no dog in this hunt. But I am interested in increasing my knowledge and there is one question that's always sort of bugged me.

 

If most "pros" only play mono, as many here claim, why is it that, with the possible exception of the largest arena shows which sometimes have speakers flown overhead, why is it that every show I've ever experienced use two speakers (or stacks of speakers), one on each side of the stage, implying stereo playback? If the FOH is being run all mono, why have "stereo speakers"? Why not have just one on either side of the stage?

[AnotherScott]

why is it that every show I've ever experienced use two speakers (or stacks of speakers), one on each side of the stage...Why not have just one on either side of the stage?

I don't understand the distinction you're making. But there are always speakers on either side of the stage, for coverage over the width of the listening area. Whether the speakers at either end are mono (playing the same signals) or stereo (playing different signals) is not something you can tell by looking at them.

[RedLeo]

If most "pros" only play mono, as many here claim, why is it that, with the possible exception of the largest arena shows which sometimes have speakers flown overhead, why is it that every show I've ever experienced use two speakers (or stacks of speakers), one on each side of the stage, implying stereo playback?

 

You are right, all big shows - theatre, festival, whatever - run in stereo. I have personally never even seen, let alone used, a mono PA system. However, the music businesss very big, and consists of many different "worlds". There are clearly many different circuits and venues that run mono systems, and someone's experience of PA systems will vary according to what "world" they inhabit musically. Which is what leads to the strong differences of experience and opinion you see on this thread and others like it. And that's just as it should be. Otherwise we'd have nothing to talk about.

[Adan]

If most "pros" only play mono, as many here claim,

 

Don't confuse factual claims with schoolyard taunts. Professional keyboardists typically run their rigs in stereo. Whether they should do so or not is the topic of debate.

[CEB]

We can start a continous poll thread that attempts to utilize population sampling. I am in Iowa this weekend. I can post if we have mono or stereo. We would need to establish some ground rules such as:

 

Does the FOH need to be 3rd party?

Can the contractor be one who provides services to you on a consistent basis or should each sample be a unique provider? etc....

 

I run Stereo on stage and carry a stereo DI but if I need to I sum the rig on my small Yamaha board and only send one side of the DI to the snake.

 

[JeffLearman]

If most "pros" only play mono, as many here claim, why is it that, with the possible exception of the largest arena shows which sometimes have speakers flown overhead, why is it that every show I've ever experienced use two speakers (or stacks of speakers), one on each side of the stage, implying stereo playback?

 

You are right, all big shows - theatre, festival, whatever - run in stereo. I have personally never even seen, let alone used, a mono PA system.

As a concertgoer, I find that a lot of venues run mono, especially the largest. For amphitheater shape venues or, it's hard to do stereo well. It's annoying, but understandable.

[AnotherScott]

As a concertgoer, I find that a lot of venues run mono

If you're not roughly centered, I think it's generally hard to tell if a system is stereo, unless they're using gimmicky ping pong synth effects or otherwise putting some sound almost entirely into one side or the other. I think it's pretty easy to lose the sense of stereo placement of objects, and any stereo spread or ambience that might be in the sounds meshes into the natural ambient cues of the room.

[ITGITC]

 

Are we still talking about this?

 

*I THINK*... that all concerts should be in stereo AND in 3-D...

 

Yeah...

 

We'll all be wearing headphones and 3-D glasses. Just like these folks (err... you'll have to imagine the headphones, 'k?)

 

http://vanlaker.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/3d_movies.jpg

 

It's FRIDAY. Buy me a beer...

 

C'mon, doit! I'm parched!

 

http://musicmaven.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/beer-goggles.jpg

 

 

 

[Iconoclast]

I think almost every big name band I've seen lately plays in stereo and it's noticeable. Seeing Return to Forever on Saturday and we'll see how their setup is.

 

I play in two different bands now and both are sold on playing in stereo.

 

Most of the places we play we use our PA which we almost always use in stereo.

 

Even in smaller places where we don't run all the instruments through the PA, my keys and guitar amps are stereo setups.

 

Yeah I've seen bars with their own sound systems and if you're going to use theirs then you're stuck with their setup. For me that's by far the exception.

 

+1 to Theo

[CEB]

In the 60s and early 70s the future was supposed to be quadraphonic systems. A quadraphonic synth on Frankenstein could be really cool.

[Joe Muscara]

Is your monitoring of your band on stage in stereo?

[CEB]

Monitors are not configured with stereo in mind. The goal of monitor mixes is to provide each guy with just what he needs to hear. So it is like seperate mono sends.

 

We like to have four monitor mixes. But sometimes I think we are lucky if we get two. Depends on the gig. If we only have 2 mixes then it is split between the drummers mix and then everyone else's.

[Iconoclast]

Is your monitoring of your band on stage in stereo?

Is the monitor mix in stereo? No, but neither does it have any of the effects that go to the FOH. And it's very heavy in vocals. Depends on the band I'm playing with but I can usually hear everyone just fine through their own amps.

 

I don't typically have the luxury of a stage big enough to justify that kind of monitoring setup BUT I can sure think of a lot of pro dudes I've seen who do monitor in stereo.

[kanker.]

Is your monitoring of your band on stage in stereo?

Interesting and strong point Joe, one that never occurred to me. Imagine your bandmates hearing nothing but an out of phase mess coming out of their wedge when they have keyboards running through them. Just one more reason to go mono.....

[JeffLearman]

Is your monitoring of your band on stage in stereo?

Interesting and strong point Joe, one that never occurred to me. Imagine your bandmates hearing nothing but an out of phase mess coming out of their wedge when they have keyboards running through them. Just one more reason to go mono.....

Only send one side to monitors. Problem solved. Just one more non-reason, but another small complication to keep in mind making it less trivial than mono.

 

My conversation with FOH:

 

Me: Is the house running stereo?

Answer 1: No.

Me: OK, thanks. (end of conversation)

 

Answer 2: Yes.

Me: Great. I have two feeds; please hard pan them to opposite sides. Use just one feed for any keys needed in monitors.

 

If I ran in mono, that conversation would be avoided, but it's no big deal.

 

Since I usually use my own monitor rig, there's usually not much need for keys in the monitors, except perhaps on the far side on a big stage. Big stages aren't a common problem in the circuit I run in. ;-)

[mcgoo]

For those in the mono camp....

 

and for those in the stereo camp... :deadhorse: