Heads-up: SpaceStation keyboard amp is apparently back

[BornAgnMusician]

Good questions! Actually there were many previous designs where I did use 2 side speakers (but always out of phase, for obvious reasons; they sound better like that, and the 3D effect is enhanced. Technically speaking though, we wanted them to function as one dipole transducer, not 2 speakers, for uniform audio clarity).

 

So you used L-R (differential amp) for the side speaker and desired the two sources to be out of phase to enhance a separation between front and side sound sources to create a 3-D effect. Am I close?

 

Well it sure sounds real. I've found that it is easier to EQ any keyboard I have in any room with the SS. I was never really happy with the sound of my keyboards when playing live. I would have to spend a huge amount of time EQing my setup trying to eliminate the peaks of different frequencies. Now I just set everything close to 0 (I use a mixer and graphic EQ). Most of my adjustments are for taste and not to get rid of irritating peaks. It really is amazing.

[BornAgnMusician]

I play the korgpa1x arranger keyboard and you need the treble to hear the hi hats more clearly with the mix of drums , bass and guitars plus keys . I am still experimenting with the sound though . It's a lot trickier trying to get the sounds overall dialled in as well as for playing straight keys .

 

Worth -- I also use arrange keyboards from time to time. I have also found it hard to mix the accompaniment to sound good without a sub. I also tried using a full range powered speaker connected to the subout of the SS. It in someway sounded better than with the sub. I haven't tried it with a powered studio monitor but it might work especially if it's at low volume. I'm talking about something with maybe a 6 1/2 inch bass speaker. I bet it would sound pretty good. I've found not much bass is needed to round out the sound of the SS to make it sound good with an arranger. The Korg PA series is pretty awesome isn't it?

[Synthaholic]

This is very interesting synthaholic and mathofinsects . Mixing sounds is so subjective . My aim was to get more bottom end from the space station keyboard amp and I have achieved this . However in doing so I am struggling to balance the rest of the sounds I am used to hearing . I am so relieved to have achieved one aspect of the desired sound that I am not sure I can trust my ears for the rest . I need to borrow other musicians ears !!

 

Just so I am clear . Are you suggesting that I leave the basic settings in the amp at 12 o'clock (mids and hi) , but on the mixer set the mids to. 12 o'clock and turn down the hi from 5 o'clock to 2 o'clock and turn down the bass from 3 o'clock to 12 o'clock ? Is that what you would suggest as the starting position and then if it still lacked bass ,add more ? Or would you reduce the hi 's and mids further still ?

 

This is great information by the way and much appreciated .

 

My keyboard has L&R Mains Out and L&R Aux Out.

 

I send all my Keys through the L&R Mains, my Bass/HiHat/Cymbals/Kick Drum/Toms out the Aux L, and my Snare out the Aux R. I always want my Snare separate to EQ it differently.

 

The L&R Mains get sent to a stereo channel, the L&R Aux Outs get send to 2 of my Mic channels.

 

The Bass/HiHat easily share a channel since I can keep the Mids flat, then boost or cut the Highs for the Metals and boost or cut the Low for the Bass/Kick without either really interfering with the other.

 

The only thing I ever really need to touch on the Keys channel is the Low, which I boost to 3 or 4 o'clock when playing a Piano patch, and leave flat otherwise.

 

Hope that wasn't as confusing to read as it was to type. http://i.imgur.com/4i6Ckte.gif

[MikeB47]

Just new to the forum and have read quite a bit from this posting...Great information that I'm still soaking in...I recently got a Spacestation and have played a few indoor jams as well as outdoor events. No one has seen or heard this incredible sounding amp...so it's never set up by the sound techs as a stereo instrument. They "mike" it or run the L/mono channels of the keys to their sound board and send the R channels to the SS for a monitor. It will take some time in my area of the country for anyone to really see/hear the amazing capabilities and potentials of these units...I use a KORG KRONOS2 and HAMMOND SK2 in these sessions and am looking to add my KORG Pa3X and KORG TR in the future. Just wondering if I use SS outside in, say, in a downtown street setting will I need to build a "Corner" for the SS to get the 3-D effect? It looks as if I may need a Sub as well. Hopefully soon, better said, someday in the future I can convince these people what the SS is capable of producing...Thanks in advance for any information and assistance you can provide.

[rockinredeye]

Maybe next time, bypass the sound techs and send your L & R to the SS and give them the SubOut. It is full frequency, not just low end. They will just use a DI box and should be happy to split the signal themselves.

[MikeB47]

Thanks. I'll do that.

 

[jpgxk3]

Mike, you found the place to be....anyway, I am using a Radial Pro stereo DI with an sk1 and cps. Everything goes to the sound folks and they do what they do. I usually like a flat setting mostly playing organ. Just what I like , everyone has their tastes. Works for me. Good luck, Joe.

[drawback]

Maybe next time, bypass the sound techs and send your L & R to the SS and give them the SubOut. It is full frequency, not just low end. They will just use a DI box and should be happy to split the signal themselves.

 

This. The FOH techs may be surprised at how little reinforcement they'll need to provide.

[Al Quinn]

Mike, you found the place to be....anyway, I am using a Radial Pro stereo DI with an sk1 and cps. Everything goes to the sound folks and they do what they do. I usually like a flat setting mostly playing organ. Just what I like , everyone has their tastes. Works for me. Good luck, Joe.

 

This works well for me also in "the place to be"

[MathOfInsects]

Just so I am clear . Are you suggesting that I leave the basic settings in the amp at 12 o'clock (mids and hi) , but on the mixer set the mids to. 12 o'clock and turn down the hi from 5 o'clock to 2 o'clock and turn down the bass from 3 o'clock to 12 o'clock ? Is that what you would suggest as the starting position and then if it still lacked bass ,add more ? Or would you reduce the hi 's and mids further still ?

 

Well, two answers. You mentioned your mixer settings being at 1:00 for mids, 3:00 for lo's, and 5:00 for hi's. So indeed, I'd recommend thinking of your EQ as adjustments relative to 0 (12:00), which would mean in this case leaving your lo's at 12:00, pulling your mids back to 10:00 and putting your hi's at 2:00.

 

But also, personally, if it were bass I was trying to compensate for with the SS3, I'd just leave the mixer at noon for mids and hi's and boost the bass, then do the rest at the SS3. (Unless this was a case of EQ two instruments differently. Forgive me, but I can't remember if this is what you were asking about. If so, ignore this paragraph.) FWIW, I find the amp more than generous for both mids and hi's at 12:00 noon, and often pull the hi's back a bit from there, rather than turn them up.

 

Also, either way, when adjusting for EQ, I'd do it with the width setting down, perhaps even off. Once you're where you want to be, then I'd nudge it back up (no higher than noon, ever) and check again. That's just me, others might have a different preference.

 

Hope that helps...

 

 

[Worth]

Thanks for all the useful advice . I have some spare time this weekend to experiment with theses useful suggestions and will let you know how I get on

[Aspen]

Hey guys, chiming in with a recent gig report, and 2 videos we just posted on YouTube of Geoff Stradling and his 18 piece Jazz band, "The Strad Band". We taped Geoff's band playing a really nice local supper club venue called "Typhoon", which is located right on the runway of the Santa Monica airport. Geoff has been a highly visible SS3 user for over a year, and graciously allowed us to come see and record him in action.

 

Geoff is a very busy boy as organist for the Hollywood Bowl, featured organist for the LA Philharmonic (I caught him w/ the LA Phil at Disney Concert Hall w/ his SS3), and his every day job as a #1 call film and TV score composer (you have heard him on 100s of film and TV scores)...too many to list.

 

Then just for fun (and because he can), Geoff brings out this amazing Jazz band several times a year for a intimate concert. The Strad Band is a collection of top LA session players, and Geoff writes all arrangements fresh each time. He also introduces each song with interesting historical comments on the motivations behind his arrangements (from Chick Corea improvs to Tower of Power "Oakland funk")...so it's almost like a college course on Jazz history.

 

They played for 90+ minutes, but you can see/hear the SS3 shine in a big band setting on these 2 tunes we picked as they have nice piano solos from Geoff:

 

A Side of Blue Beat

 

Iguazu (native geographical spelling)

 

 

You be the judge, but I can say that "being there" was a fantastic "SS3 First" experience for me, and I was pretty impressed!

 

I took some stills showing the placement of the SS3 that sits behind Geoff (the SS3 is not visible in the videos) and posted them on my facebook page. But unfortunately I can't recall how to post them or embed them here (help? there was a chapter on this several seasons ago but I am too rushed to go back searching right now). But if you'd like to see them, they are on posted my facebook page here, along with a more detail description of Geoff's amazing talents and resume:

 

https://www.facebook.com/aspen.pittman/posts/801932273276168?pnref=story

 

Enjoy these videos, and thanks again to Geoff for being a sterling example of just how good a SS3 amps can sound in the hands of a true Maestro!

 

BTW, we gave Geoff the entire evening on a DVD, perhaps he might make that available somewhere. Frankly ALL the tunes are amazing arrangements with top notch performances....so I hope he will.

 

I have to say, the quality is not the best possible, it's just a one camera shot in a room full of diners (all we were allowed to do as this is an exclusive dinner club venue...and I had to buy an extra cover for the camera table!). The audio is recorded thru the built in stereo mics on our little Canon XA10, sitting on a table top...please excuse the occasional clanking of plates. But you can hear actual and enthusiastic audience participation at the end of each tune!

[MPN21]

Has anyone tried something like the Behringer FX2000 3D Multi-Engine Effects Processor with the Spacestation? It is supposed to create stereo and 3d effects and has very good reviews everywhere. Will a singnal processor like that defeat the purpose of the Spacestation or enhance what the Spacestation does well already? Just the other day, I got my Soundblaster PLay!2 USB audio interface for my laptop. It comes with editor. When in surround mode, it really opens up the acoustic space, but when I turn it off, the laptop is in its regular stereo. So flat that it sounds like I am listening to a mono speaker!

[Aspen]

Has anyone tried something like the Behringer FX2000 3D Multi-Engine Effects Processor with the Spacestation? It is supposed to create stereo and 3d effects and has very good reviews everywhere. Will a singnal processor like that defeat the purpose of the Spacestation or enhance what the Spacestation does well already?

 

I haven't tried this FX unit (yet), but I am not sure how any stereo FX could ever "defeat" what CPS does? I mean, we invented CPS expressly FOR reproducing stereo in a live venue! So in theory, these would have to be mutually enhancing products. The better the stereo FX, the more powerful the CPS result!

 

I am intrigued by Behringer's claim to produce "3D" stereo FX (now, where have I heard that claim before :>)

 

So I went on the Sweetwater site and watched Behringer Phil's demo (Phil is a local LA bud for many years...used to be at Guitar Center and then Line 6...great guy). And after watching it I can see that there is really no fundamental application difference b/w this and a Lexicon or any other processor, except perhaps the low price point ($149, wow!).

 

I mean, they all have stereo in/out (this one labels them "Chan 1&2 in/out", and also has the typical midi features) and factory presets for all the usual patches. So why wouldn't this shine brighter thru a CPS speaker?

 

I did notice it has amp simlulations and vocal enhancing FX too. So while I do not think this would be useful for a typical modern keyboard, it could be very interesting for a mono KB like a Rhodes or Whirly, or as an addition to a live PA that didn't already have builtin stereo FX.

 

At this price point I am feeling "GAS onset". I tempted to try it in my all tube based CPS guitar rig; Trio preamp, Dual 75 stereo power amp, and SFX G12 speaker (3x12"). My ancient Marshall rack FX unit is a bit long in the tooth, and the lighted panel has gone over to the dark side on me. (Thank God my wife doesn't read this thread!)

 

[JohnnyB3]

That was wonderful! Great band, exquisite arrangements, top tier players that listen to each other. Please make sure the DVD comes out

[rickzjamm]

The keys sound amazing through the SS3... clean & full!!! The whole band kicks it!

[MPN21]

I tried my Soudblaster Play2 through CPS to see how a software version of 3d effects for the Soundblaster USB sound card works with CPS. The effects were not as noticeable on CPS as it was on a 2.1 monitor system. I think it's because CPS was already creating its own a 3D sound image. However, It still enhanced what I was hearing from CPS with more punch and presence, and it did not get in the way of what CPS was doing with incoming singals whether they were stereo or software processed 3D. If it made quite a difference, I wanted to get that Behringer or more expensive Soundblaster USB interfaces for my laptop. Aspen, if you ever try it out yourself, please let us know.

[Al Quinn]

I've been using two different approaches to amplification depending on whether the gig is piano centric or organ centric. For organ the SS V3 is fantastic and for acoustic piano samples a pair of RCF TT08A's on speaker poles sounds great. I got to thinking it would be nice to find a way to combine the high end audio fidelity of the TT08A's and the omnipresent sound of the SS (i.e., without having to bring both TT08As and those nuisance speaker poles). After a bunch of experimentation using some ideas from Aspen I found a setup the sounds great and is gig-friendly. Perhaps others can benefit from this experience. I still need to try it on a gig but feel very optimistic based on what I've heard at home.

 

Here it is:

1) Connect keyboard or mixer left / right outs to the SS left / right ins

2) Connect SS sub out to TT08A in

3) Set TT08A volume to max

4) Set SS HF to min and SS MF to min

5) Adjust SS width to taste

 

Some details:

The goal is to replace the SS front speaker with the higher quality (and much more expensive) TT08A. Placing the front speaker face down and adjusting HF and MF to minimum effectively takes the sound of the front speaker out of the overall sound. Note that the sub out is unaffected by adjustments to HF and MF and, therefore, the TT08A still gets the full range front speaker signal via the SS sub out.

 

Aspen says it's important to keep the side and front speakers close and at 90 degrees to maximize the CPS 3D effect. As can be seen by the photo below this is achieved.

 

Of course any powered speaker can be used instead of the TT08A but it's only worth doing so if the powered speaker provides a noticeable improvement in audio fidelity.

 

[cphollis]

Interesting combination, Al. Looks like you're replacing the front-facing components of the SSv3 with the TT08a, which sounds like a huge upgrade. I like that you only have to bring one extra piece of gear to achieve this.

[Bill Spencer]

Cool idea!

 

Do the High and Mids controls affect the "side" speaker? If not then I can't imagine why you'd need to turn them off, what with the cab face down...

[drawback]

This looks like a great idea! Other benefits of this setup:

 

- better connection to the floor for bass

- controls on the SS easier to reach & adjust

- higher elevation of the main speaker

- controls on the RCF easier to reach & adjust

 

 

 

[Al Quinn]

Chuck: this should sound great with one of your Fulcrum Acoustic speakers!

 

Bill: No the MF and HF knobs don't affect the side speaker. I turn them down just to make the front speaker as quiet as possible. But, I think you're right in that doing so might not make a meaningful difference. I'll check this out soon.

 

Drawback: Yes, I like those advantages too. The only disadvantage I can think of (besides having to bring an extra speaker) is that the SS can't be put on it's side (as I often do) to avoid firing the side speaker(s) at other musicians.

[Aspen]

...

Aspen says it's important to keep the side and front speakers close and at 90 degrees to maximize the CPS 3D effect. As can be seen by the photo below this is achieved.

 

Of course any powered speaker can be used instead of the TT08A but it's only worth doing so if the powered speaker provides a noticeable improvement in audio fidelity.

 

Hey Al, Great post!

 

As I said when you first PM'd me with this goal of keeping your High End RCF and using the SS side system "only" by turning the Front system off somehow, I was intrigued...but not surprised. Years ago I wanted to do that too, so I made a separate side speaker in the old Groove Tubes SFX line (the S12 and S15) so you could keep your favorite full range speaker and just add a Side speaker which was designed as a platform; you placed your PA speaker (or guitar amp) on top. It worked great (but you had to add another amp to drive it, and the system also required an SFX EC1 1RU encoder to get the CPS circuit and technology). See the "Old GT SFX catalog" in our A&A archives here: http://aspenandassoc.com/support-documents/

 

And also, Fender's 1st Generation SFX line had a 100 watt w/ 12" SFX Satellite powered Side speaker that had a recessed platform top designed to hold your favorite (tube) guitar amp. It also worked w/ any KB amp. But they discontinued it pretty quickly...just too kludgy to set up (used the amp's FX loop, had a builtin CPS encoder + some stereo FXs). And also back then, CPS was just coming out, so guitar players were kinda shy to try "new ideas" (especially guitar players, Fender's biggest customer base).

 

So yes, I did find this experiment and post of yours VERY interesting! And now I see and understand the challenges with your gain structure issues. I think this "imbalance", if you will, is because the SS3 has a "averaged" input sensitivity (somewhere b/w +4dB line and -10dB inst levels). That is so it can work w/ either a mixer or an instrument which have different signal output signal levels and impedances. While the RCF's input sensitivity is more likely designed for just a +4dB line level as would be seen from a mixer (note; some of these powered cabs have a switch to change that).

 

Therefore your thoughts about adding a mixer in the path before these powered monitors seems like a good solution. But also then, I bet if you cranked up signal level into the SS3 with the mixer (which also may lower the impedance), you would also increase the SS3's sub output level and so drive the RCF louder to full power too. That may allow you to use more SS3 side speaker level than before. But you'd have to experiment with that...just a guess on my part.

 

Either way, I think you proved out the idea, and now dialing it in would be the next step. My guess is as interactive as this thread has been, we will hear from others on this!

 

The funny thing for me was that when we discussed this initially, I never imagined closing off the Front system by simply facing it down..very intuitive of you! Of coarse that would obviously be the best way to keep the Side speaker in play while closing down the SS3 Front speaker...duh! But when we were discussing it I was thinking (as always) to leave the SS3 facing forward and just concerned w/ the Front/Side close alignment; hence my suggestion of stacking the SS3 upside down under the RCF...and turning down the MF and HF amps.

 

But your way makes perfect sense...good thinking...congrats!

 

Now I wonder; what about different positions for the SS3...just for fun:

 

1) how about leaving the SS3 upright and upside down, then facing it backwards to your RCF, towards the wall behind you? And again, minimizing the MF and HF amps ...so more LF dispersion with the 8" joined to the RCF.

 

2) or how about using it as you have pictured but add a a few 2"x2" blocks under it to raise it up off the floor slightly, like a down firing sub works...firing the SS3 8" fire off the floor (maybe that would give a quicker "bloom"? That may increase the 3D effect!?

 

It might be fun to try these combos several ways and just see/hear what you get! Keep us posted (pun intended...:>)

 

PS; I have thought about bringing out an upgraded version of the old Fender powered "Satellite Side" speaker, but I sat down until the idea went away. IMHO, me thinks most players these days are interested in a fully integrated CPS amp, and as we grow older; size does matter! In the end, every new product I bring to market is a massive investment of my time and money, and just one clunker product that didn't sell very well could put a (very) small company like me out of business.

[TomKittel]

I've been using two different approaches to amplification depending on whether the gig is piano centric or organ centric. For organ the SS V3 is fantastic and for acoustic piano samples a pair of RCF TT08A's on speaker poles sounds great. I got to thinking it would be nice to find a way to combine the high end audio fidelity of the TT08A's and the omnipresent sound of the SS (i.e., without having to bring both TT08As and those nuisance speaker poles). After a bunch of experimentation using some ideas from Aspen I found a setup the sounds great and is gig-friendly. Perhaps others can benefit from this experience. I still need to try it on a gig but feel very optimistic based on what I've heard at home.

 

 

What a great idea! Can't wait to try that with my RCF TT08. Thanks Al!

[Al Quinn]

Now I wonder; what about different positions for the SS3...just for fun:

 

1) how about leaving the SS3 upright and upside down, then facing it backwards to your RCF, towards the wall behind you? And again, minimizing the MF and HF amps ...so more LF dispersion with the 8" joined to the RCF.

 

2) or how about using it as you have pictured but add a a few 2"x2" blocks under it to raise it up off the floor slightly, like a down firing sub works...firing the SS3 8" fire off the floor (maybe that would give a quicker "bloom"? That may increase the 3D effect!?

Thanks for the suggestions. I tried both of them. The SS sounds great to me every which way for organ and EP, so my test was on acoustic piano samples. AP has proven to be the most difficult to reproduce with the realism I'm looking for.

 

Here's what I found:

1) I heard a decrease in clarity from the TT08A. Somehow the sound became a little blurry.

2) I think it did increase the 3D effect but it also made the TT08A sound a little blurry.

 

So, at this point I'm favoring the SS facedown w/TT08A on top. AP sounds very clear and omnipresent like a good piano should. Need I need to try it on a gig.

 

 

[Al Quinn]

Tom, I'm looking forward to hearing what you think after trying this with your TT08A.

[jpst]

Just spotted this current thread-in-the-thread! I also have both the SSv3 and a pair of TT08s for AP jazz gigs. I'll have to go try this out tomorrow...

 

John

 

[Aspen]

Regarding the on going "SS3 ultimate Sub Quest":

 

As some of you know, I had been using cheap low powered HiFi powered subs by Sony and/or Klipsch that I bought for peanuts at my local swap meets (well, b/w $25-50 peanuts). They worked fine as IMHO the SS3 doesn't need a BIG sub. These can be seen in many of my videos. But frankly spoken, they really are not roadworthy and/or "pro".

 

But then when everyone seemed to be doing it, I bought a Behringer B1200 to hear one for myself. At $300 I just had to see if I should be recommending these to other SS3 users.

 

My conclusions were: very good "Boom for the Buck", but I didn't like the loss of gain when used pre-SS3 to take advantage of their hi-pass filter. So I use mine post-SS3 from the "Sub Out" feed off the SS3 for best results.

 

I also thought this B1200 was probably "over kill", and I do not really push it hard to get the right amount of sub for those louder gigs. Then also, it is a pretty "big box"! It is larger and heavier (43.5lbs.) than our SS3 (42lbs.)... so I was still looking around for something smaller/lighter I could recommend.

 

I had heard favorable reports here on this thread about the Seismic Audio Mini Tremor, a 12" 500wt sub like the B1200, but a smaller footprint than the B1200. However, while smaller, it still weighs (43lbs) almost as much as the B1200, and a pound more than the SS3!

 

But now I just noticed SA brought out a new "Really-Mini-Tremor w/ 350 watts and a 10" speaker. Also it's smaller/lighter (just 27lbs), so his could be closer to matching the SS3. It was also "ON SALE" for $189 w/ free ship. So, again I took one for the team and ordered it today! I will post my review in a few weeks.

 

Our CPS "Big and Wide" band just got a regular Thursday night gig at an Irish pub over the hill. The guys will be using their SS3 w/ mixer for the whole band; keys, bass, guitar synth and vocals (drums are acoustic). So that should be a good test, stay tuned!

[SteinwayB]

Just reiterating my solution: Ashley stereo crossover with high-pass going to SS3 and low pass going to my 28 lb FBT powered (12" woofer) speaker. Sounds great and I have a back-up speaker if something goes wrong with either box.

[TomKittel]

Tom, I'm looking forward to hearing what you think after trying this with your TT08A.

 

I used the SSV3 / RCF TT08 combo yesterday night at a bar gig with my bluesrock band. The sound was just glorious. I positioned the two speakers right next to me. Similar to what you suggested I put the TT08 on the backside of the SSV3 but horizontally in monitor wedge position. I have no idea how it works but the sound was pristine. Piano, rhodes and organ, everything sounded clear and unadulterated with plenty of headroom. My keys could be easily heard on stage and everywhere in the room, SSV3 3D effect included of course. Pure enjoyment!

 

Hey Al, thanks so much for sharing this terrific idea!

 

Tom