Authentic horn sounds & live playing advice

[Blue JC]

My 8-piece horn band has just decided to go out as a 5-piece rhythm section for some gigs this winter so I am now the de facto horn section as well as the keyboard player. This is not our preferred direction - it's a survival thing.

 

I need advice on authentic horn sounds to replace trumpet, tenor sax and trombone sectional parts as well as live performance tips from anyone else out there who has been in this situation. I'm the arranger so I know the parts. I just need some help re-creating them live.

[Mark Zeger]

This doesn't answer your question, but it's a solution.

 

Could you stretch to a 6 piece with 1 horn, probably your sax player? With a real sax player, you can do a nice horn "section" with any quality ROMpler.

 

I saw James Taylor a few years ago. Along with Lou Marini on sax, Walt Fowler played trumpet with his right hand while filling out a big horn section sound on a Motif with his left. Very clever. I've tried that but can do it only if I transpose the keyboard to Bb.

 

Though I haven't checked it out yet, the Garritan Big Band library might be the ticket if gigging with a notebook computer is an option.

[Phred]

Personally, I think it is better to forgo faking the horns and plays the parts on a smokin' hammond sound...

[Dreamer]

I know that it may sound difficult to believe, but the best trumpet/trombone and tenor sax sounds (not to mention the best sax ensemble) I have listened to in a keyboard (thus excluding software libraries) are in the Yamaha Tyros 2.

If you have a chance, try to demo one.

Please note that I also own a Motif ES rack, a Fantom XR and two hardware samplers (Akai S2800 and Ensoniq ASR10r), complete with their libraries. Yet, I still think that the Tyros 2 wins for the sounds you mentioned. There is a chance that Yamaha will unveil at Winter Namm a new Motif with sounds derived from the Tyros 2 (they use a new technology, called Super Articulation).

You can find details on the SA technology here:

Regards.

[eric]

This topic has come up before and I'll give you a few links for reference that are related to trying to replicate live horns with a keyboard. I personally try to avoid it at all costs, favoring a different sound to replicate the horn line.

 

Let\'s Talk About Live Fake Horns

 

Playing sax on keyboards

 

Regards,

Eric

[Bridog6996]

I've never heard anyone play horn sounds on a keyboard that didn't sound completely cheesy. Keyboards just aren't any good at being instruments other than keyed instruments. I agree with Phred and eric, try using organ or something else to play these parts. Mark Zeger's idea is good too. Even adding just one real horn to the mix (preferably the lead) will fill out the sound nicely. Good luck!

[mate stubb]

Yamaha acoustic modelled instruments with breath controller. Even one or 2 voice, mixed on top of a generic brass patch makes a heck of a difference.

[David Loving]

I'm one of those who hate synth horns. I think I never heard one that was not cheese. That said, if you have to do it - like it's reality tv or something - try to have at least one real horn - preferrably say a tenor - to mask your fill ins and front the horn parts. The advice above is right - it really works. Otherwise play the horn parts on an organ....or quit the band.

[DanL]

I agree with the smokin' Hammond sound. That's what I do too. Tho' I do like the velocity fall off brass sound and use that once in a while for quick hit type stuff.

[Bill H.]

Originally posted by bluejc:

I'm the arranger so I know the parts. I just need some help re-creating them live.

When I've had to do this probably the best advice I have is to simplify the parts. This will probably mean doing some re-arranging. Don't feature synthetic horns, but you may be suprised what you can get away with if you use them for fill.

 

Stay away from snazzy presets. The sound that works best for me is very simple...a tenor or bari sax on bottom and single trumpet an octave above at 1/2 volume. You can play both lines and chords with something like this and in the context of the band get away with it pretty well.

 

If your synth doesn't have a preset like this you can roll your own using solo horns. But just about every current rompler I've been on has something close.

[Finale]

As others said before me, I would forget certainly about any sax sound, although on that other mentioned thread I can certainly tell Busch did the best sax demo I've ever heard.

 

But I guess to acheieve such an great emulation live, you probably need so much concentration on the single sax sound that you have to forget playing anything else with left hand or whatever.

[The Real MC]

It's futile to emulate sax and brass solos, as there is so much expression in the sound that I have yet to find a keyboard controller that can pull it off. And I've been trying for years.

 

Brass and reed sections can be emulated reasonably though. I used to use romplers, but now my Andromeda does an excellent job on section parts. I made my own patches for sections. Two expression tools that really help section patches come alive are aftertouch and pitch wheel. I route aftertouch to the filter to close the filter, which adds life to the dynamics of the section. I couldn't do that with romplers. Sometimes I use the ribbon for stabs.

 

I'm an expert analog programmer and have worked with many orchestras and ensembles, so I know how to get "that sound". I was a beta tester/sound designer for the Andromeda, but my brass patches are not in the factory patch library as those were developed after release. Frankly I haven't heard a sampler pull off a good brass section.

[coyote]

I disagree with this.

Originally posted by Bridog6996:

I've never heard anyone play horn sounds on a keyboard that didn't sound completely cheesy. Keyboards just aren't any good at being instruments other than keyed instruments.

I used to agree, but I've found the keys to programming them. You need a keyboard that does aftertouch, and program various subtle pitchbends and vibratos into the aftertouch. It still ain't perfect, but it does work - at least, it works enough to not be cheezy.

[jay da cop]

I'm a big fan of breath controllers as a CC also. It's not perfect, but it frees up another modulation source (pitch/mod/aftertouch/etc) for another trick for emulation. Nothing is perfect, but you get as close as you can when you have to.

 

Jay

[eric]

There are a few people that can make a breath controller work. I've personally witnessed David Sancious and Burning Busch do it. It really is not something just anyone can do. I suggest that the average KB player go with a Hammond or synth brass sound to cover horn parts, if you cannot bring the horn players to the gig. Just offer those guys $50 to get them into the gIg!

 

Regards,

Eric

[midinut]

Offer them $50? That's all I make ... so I gotta give them MY cut? I don't think so!

 

[hawkan2580]

I am also a firm advocate of keeping at least one "real" player in the band... (preferably the sax player) and re-arrange the parts so that the real instrument plays the top lines. Depending on the sound I am after, I have tried several combinations and normally go for really simple sounds.. ie, trumpet and trombone but double up the sounds so that there are a trumpet and a trombone sound playing the same line with 70/30 mix and panned slightly off from eachother... and vice verse for the second part (providing there is a real sax player)

 

in some situations, again depending on the sound.. I mix in a bit of sax in there as well.... It is far from optimal but not too bad.. at least it won't sound too cheesy....

 

For CC.. I use tons of them... pedals, breathcontrollers, 2 modulation wheels and a peavey pc1600.. so again, it really is depending on the parts I am going to play what ones is best suited.. I try to at least being able to controll pitch (preferably independently so I have one pitch control for the trumpet and one for trombone.. for instance, set it up so that aftertouch conrol the pitch for the trombone but the trumpet ignores that cc.. 2 other important ones are volume and filter..so that is pretty much 4 CC that I want to be able to access at any given time.. be that with feet, elbow (j/k) mouth or whatever...

 

I use a couple of romplers and have an old Yamaha SY99 with the beautiful feature that you can set the aftertouch to only effect the top of bottom note for example.. that makes a difference when doing these things...

 

With the pc1600 I have a fairly good control situation, but the trouble is being able to have the hand free to actually use all the parts that I can access through it.. but if nothing else, it gives me 2 more cv pedal or other type of cc inputs.....

 

I have used joysticks (a bit of soldering and their great as cc controllers as long as you can set the zero point on them)effectively as cc for brass parts in the past, but these days I stay away as I haven't seen any that I like lately..

 

Hope that helps... it's not soo bad if you got one real horn player.. if you don't have that.. I wish you luck and recommend telling the guitarrist that he'll need to do it.. and wait for his reaction (if he says that you got the sounds.. just say that there are midi transmittable guitars and you are happy to let him hook up to your rompler).

[RudyS]

Originally posted by coyote:

I disagree with this.

Originally posted by Bridog6996:

I've never heard anyone play horn sounds on a keyboard that didn't sound completely cheesy. Keyboards just aren't any good at being instruments other than keyed instruments.

I used to agree, but I've found the keys to programming them. You need a keyboard that does aftertouch, and program various subtle pitchbends and vibratos into the aftertouch. It still ain't perfect, but it does work - at least, it works enough to not be cheezy.

can you maybe explain a little bit more, or even post an example? I really like to know how you do this.

 

My experience is that analog brass patches work better than the ROMpler ones. They have more colour or something. Also had the advice from someone here to always layer my ROMpler patch with a analog one (or a analog sounding patch if you don't have a RA or VA).

[Blue JC]

I would like to thank everyone very much for their advice and suggestions.

 

As I said in my initial post, this decision to play our regular show with just drums, bass, guitar, keys and girl singer was a tough call - not something we took lightly. And the horn section was involved in and supported this decision from the outset.

 

I've got a couple of "small band" gigs under my belt now and these are my observations:

 

Even when I played the parts note-for-note with a Hammond sound or some other alternate sound, the singer didn't feel like she got her cue unless she heard it in a "horn" sound. When she did, she nailed every cue. Some kind of weird Pavlovian response I guess but I'm going to try to figure it out on stage. I'm just going to play a horn sound so we don't crash and burn.

 

I ended up programming three pre-sets (soft section, hard section, riff section) spilt around middle "C" which I copied to put either piano, organ, wurly, rhodes or clav in the left hand.

 

In the right hand, I layered bari/tenor sax (low note select) synth brass and a soft trumpet, hard trumpet or riff section (top note select)depending on the patch. All of the horns sounds are tied to a CC pedal transmitting Expression (which seems to sound more natural than volume).

 

I then mirrored each patch and swapped them so I could have horns in the left hand and key sounds in the right hand.

 

I would have loved to use a breath controller but I'm singing backing vocals on almost every song so no good there. Same thing with pitch and mod wheels - left hand too busy with keyboard parts. Feet also busy with sustain, leslie speed switch and expression pedal.

 

So the big question: how does it sound live?

 

I thought it sounded cheesy as hell but the singer and the rest of the band genuinely loved it and were surprised by how close it sounded to the real thing. The club owners and the regulars who show up for every gig didn't even notice the difference. Scary.

 

The bottom line: would I do this if it wasn't necessary to keep the band working? No, never, absolutely not. Can it be done with musical integrity? I think so - time will tell.

 

Thanks again for all of your help.

 

JC

[DafDuc]

Originally posted by Phred:

Personally, I think it is better to forgo faking the horns and plays the parts on a smokin' hammond sound...

+1.

 

Or...

[DafDuc]

Originally posted by mate_stubb:

Yamaha acoustic modelled instruments with breath controller. Even one or 2 voice, mixed on top of a generic brass patch makes a heck of a difference.

...+1.

[burningbusch]

Originally posted by Bridog6996:

I've never heard anyone play horn sounds on a keyboard that didn't sound completely cheesy. Keyboards just aren't any good at being instruments other than keyed instruments.

I'm curious, is playing a Mellotron flute sound from a keyboard cheesy?

 

Busch.

[DanL]

Cheesy in the respect that it doesn't sound like a real flute. Cool because it's a completely different way of playing a flute sound.

[Mr. Nightime]

I agree that keyboard horn parts can sound pretty cheesy. One of the reasons is that real horns are NEVER exactly in tune, and the slight imperfections add life and realism. Nature of the instrument.

Back when I had my M1, I would use the sax section combi for horn parts. I'd set the tuning for Equal Tempered2, which threw random amounts of detuning. This added life to the horns sounds. While they didn't sound "real" they were better than if I'd played them perfectly in tune.

 

As important as programming the sounds for realism is, the most important part of keeping the parts from sounding cheesy is performance. I learned a long time ago that if you're emulating and instrument, you should approach the performance in the same manner as someone that is actually playing that instrument. In my early days of sequencing, with my M1 and a Commodore 64, I recoded a sax solo on a tune. In playback, I noticed how fake it sounded. Why? I forgot to leave blank spaces where the horn player would breathe. After I fixed this, it sounded much more authentic.

Sure, any pro could tell it was a fake horn, but the general listening public doesn't have that discerning an ear. That's why the club owners and regulars didn't notice the difference.

[The Real MC]

I also patched in some random pitch fluctuations in my brass patches on the Andromeda. Really adds life to the sound. Another trick is to add a tiny stab of EG to the pitch - while it sounds great on the Andromeda and Voyager, it doesn't sound right on my Memorymoog.

 

If you want to emulate brass and reed sections, it pays to listen closely to the way they play and why each individual instrument sounds the way it does. When I was working with community bands and ensembles, my ear was subconsciously picking up on that. It really paid off.

[ClaviaMech]

How about an alternate approach to the solution? Instead of trying to make your performance sound like a horn section, make the horn parts sound like you.

 

Why not re-arrange those parts for a synth ... a true synth patch, not sampled horns? Create a nice buzzy sawtoothy comp, dual oscillator (slightly detuned), play with the filter, give it a little release, maybe add some tasteful reverb, and make sure your expression wheel is set to a reasonably subtle vibrato (you don't want it to go wah-oowah-ooWAH-ooWAH on you at the slightest touch). You could even layer some ROMpler horns underneath it for texture, but I'd suggest making it an overtly synthesized sound.

 

There's a big difference between synth-brass and brass-synth.

 

And play these parts as a keyboard player would by making them keyboard parts. Even the best sampled horns are going to sound "fake", mainly because they're coming out of an amp, and real-live air molecules aren't being shot out of an acoustic instrument, but also because yours is a keyboard-player's technique.

 

Brass articulations, embouchures, dynamic devices (like sfz), and their affect on formant changes ... to emulate these "accurately" would require a radical change in technique (even more so than going from piano to organ, etc.). Is that something you can do in the middle of a song?

 

Dammit Jim, I'm a keyboard player, not a horn section!

 

(But I suppose I'm opening the floodgates of another debate entirely ... sorry if I went OT!)

[The Real MC]

Originally posted by ClaviaMech:

Brass articulations, embouchures, dynamic devices (like sfz), and their affect on formant changes ... to emulate these "accurately" would require a radical change in technique (even more so than going from piano to organ, etc.). Is that something you can do in the middle of a song?

Yup. That's what separates the piano/organ players from the keyboard players.

 

The notes in section parts aren't closely spaced like a one hand triad on a piano/organ, the notes are spread out and has to be played with two hands.

 

I use pressure aftertouch to emulate sfz expressions.

 

That's why it pays to pay close attention to the instruments you are emulating. You can LEARN from this stuff and apply it to your technique in your non-imitative synth patches.

[Blue JC]

Originally posted by The Real MC:

Originally posted by ClaviaMech:

Brass articulations, embouchures, dynamic devices (like sfz), and their affect on formant changes ... to emulate these "accurately" would require a radical change in technique (even more so than going from piano to organ, etc.). Is that something you can do in the middle of a song?

Yup. That's what separates the piano/organ players from the keyboard players.

 

The notes in section parts aren't closely spaced like a one hand triad on a piano/organ, the notes are spread out and has to be played with two hands.

 

I use pressure aftertouch to emulate sfz expressions.

 

That's why it pays to pay close attention to the instruments you are emulating. You can LEARN from this stuff and apply it to your technique in your non-imitative synth patches.

I agree. Knowledge of good arranging and orchestrating techniques (instrument ranges and limits, section voicing and traditional voice-leading)are essential for a working keyboard player today.

 

There's nothing quite like hearing strings played in stacked thirds in the wrong register to make your hair stand on end. Most people don't know why it's wrong, they just know that it IS wrong.

[Bill H.]

Originally posted by bluejc:

 

I would have loved to use a breath controller but I'm singing backing vocals on almost every song so no good there. Same thing with pitch and mod wheels - left hand too busy with keyboard parts. Feet also busy with sustain, leslie speed switch and expression pedal.

 

 

JC

Yup...this is the real world of copping horn lines on keys in a working band context. Same thing with me. You just do what you can. And my practical end result is usually the same as yours...nobody notices the horn lines or cares about them anyway. Unless they're not there at all.

[The Real MC]

If nobody notices the horn lines, then you're not doing a good enough job on them.

 

I get plenty of feedback on my keyboard work, including the horn lines.

 

People do notice, and they do care.