holysh*t is anyone watching the news?

[IanD]

I just wanted to add my sympathy to all Americans.

I have been watching events from the UK and we are all so shocked

 

Ian

[Llarion]

I know that a lot of people are quick to point fingers, but before you condemn the entire Arab world, consider this:

 

The celebrations yesterday happen every year on 9/11 to celebraite the death of leader Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah. They were MOST LIKELY NOT of people celebraiting the attacks of terrorism. Ali Jinnah died on 9/11/1948. You can read all about him here:

http://www.brain.net.pk/~wisetech/50/bio/quaid.html

 

Jinnah became the first head of the new state i.e. Pakistan. He took oath as the first governor general on August 15, 1947. Faced with the serious problems of a young nation, he tackled Pakistan's problems with authority. He was not regarded as merely the governor-general; he was revered as the father of the nation. He worked hard until overpowered by age and disease in Karachi. He died on 11th September, 1948 at Karachi.

 

That said, I will tell you my personal position on how the US should eventually deal with this matter. First, tend to the dead and wounded, with thoroughness and compassion. Second, FIND OUT WITH CERTAINTY WHO DID IT. Third, take the advice of Ed Koch:

 

Attenetion all terrorist harboring countries:

 

Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Syria and all other countries harboring known and wanted terrorists, you have 5 days to turn over the terrorists you give safe haven to. If you do not turn them over in 5 days, you will have 5 more days to clear out your major cities of civilians before we level them.

 

If it comes to pass that Bin Laden is the culprit, he needs to be taken out, but with the understanding that merely taking him out will not stop this. All of the cells need to be taken out too. They need to give the special forces their fangs back.

 

 

 

 

 

------------------

Cheers!

 

Phil "Llarion: The Jazzinator" Traynor

www.mp3.com/llarion

Smooth Jazz

[Gulliver]

Originally posted by mwisniewski:

...

I've already heard some suggestions for completely securing the pilots from the rest of the airplane, military style.

...

 

BTW, I was VERY surprised when I learned (from some recent news on a Russian TV channel) that American pilots (on the inner airlines) always had "an open door" behind them. It may seem stupid but I tend to think that if the pilots were secured from the rest of the aircraft this wouldn't be happen...

...Or at least these 3 airplanes were crash into some human less place too, (as it happened with the airplane which crashed in the wood near Pittsburgh) not into the buildings!

Look, freedom and democracy ARE great things. But there also must be some "down to earth" feeling of reality. Hey, they (in Hollywood, CA) make a lot of films about maniacs, fanatics and other bastards who just wait for the right moment to make some... dirty shit, so how Americans can be so naive to not to take few basic precautions in real life? It is not the question about restricting the people's (or in this case - passengers) rights. It is the question about surviving in this crazy world!!

 

Vladislav

[burningbusch]

Third, take the advice of Ed Koch:

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attenetion all terrorist harboring countries:

Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Syria and all other countries harboring known and wanted terrorists, you have 5 days to turn over the terrorists you give safe haven to. If you do not turn them over in 5 days, you will have 5 more days to clear out your major cities of civilians before we level them.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If it does turn out to be bin Ladin and Afghanistan, the threat or even act of destroying empty cities is laughable. Here's a peek at the largest city Kabul:

http://encarta.msn.com/find/MediaMax.asp?pg=3&ti=0168D000&idx=461539723 Read the caption at the bottom. Afghanistan's population is 80% rural. Their few population centers are nothing like what our image of modern cities (skyscrapers, etc.). The mountains provide tremendous protection and shelter. Bombing empty cities would accomplish nothing. They would be back in business in a few weeks/months.

 

I am constantly amazed that some leaders in the US don't understand the purpose of our military, especially in times like these. And that they can some how rationalize that a people so dedicated to their cause that they're willing to give their own lives in a suicide bombings, will give it all up at the threat of some buildings being blown up. We should wage war, but be sure to not hurt anyone. Did I get that right? If the terrorist countries of the world came to realize that can inflict the most unthinkable acts against America but we lack the resolve to retaliate with a force that actually kills some of them, I can't think of any action that we could do that would more embolden them to continue and intensify their activities.

 

I believe Koch is no longer in the public sector and has returned to ambulance chasing, correct?

 

Busch.

[soapbox]

Before we act, we ought to set aside our political biases and we should instead find out what really works! If you want to determine the best course of action, look no further than history to show us the way.

 

History has shown time and time again that the most effective way to motivate a group of people is "the carrot and the stick" approach. For those who are unfamiliar with this concept, let me explain where it came from. When horse drawn carriages were the common mode of transportation, it was essential to motivate the horse to pull the carriage. The "carrot and the stick" method dangled a carrot in front of the horse's nose to encourage it to pursue the carrot. In case that didn't work, the stick was used to whip the horse from behind to inspire it to run away, pulling the carriage forward. In religion, the heaven and hell principle is a powerful example of this concept at work.

 

Alternatively, the two World Wars gave striking examples of the carrot and the stick failing to be combined. For example, when Germany lost the First World War, the allies used the stick only approach and punished the country. After a military victory was achieved, the allies wanted the German civilian public to suffer as they had done. This may have been satisfying for the victors at the time, but it also planted the seeds for the next war.

 

Years later, a resentful German public brought Hitler to power; and Hitler was able to convince European leaders that Germany had been punished too severely. Since many in Europe agreed that this had been the case, Hitler was appeased in the early days of Nazi military conquests, to make up for the damage that had been done. Obviously, that was the wrong move! It's also important to observe that in this case, only the carrot was used.

 

Learning from their mistakes, the allies successfully combined the carrot and the stick at the end of World War II. After decisively beating their enemies (using the stick), they helped them rebuild their countries (using the carrot). The result was that they turned former enemies into powerful allies.

 

How could "the carrot and the stick" approach be used in the case of this awful attack? If we are to learn from our mistakes and successes, we should limit our reprisals to those who struck against us. Once victorious, we should rebuild the peace by nurturing the very public that was represented by those we defeated.

 

I suppose some of you will say that my suggestion is too weak of a response, but look at it this way. What if we hadn't only nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What if we had wiped Japan, Germany, and Italy off the face of the map the way some are suggesting we do now with any country the terrorists are in? What would the world be like now without Japan, Germany, and Italy? To start with, most of the gear we lust over wouldn't even exist. I know that's a shallow point to bring up, but maybe it will help drive the reality of what we're talking about home...

[marino]

A huge meeting took place this evening in Rome to solidarize with the United States and the victims of the attacks. Tens of thousands walked thru the historic center with candles in hand, asking for justice and peace. Many many foreigners too. It was good; I could even stand the politics' (short) speeches.

[soapbox]

marino, thank you for your support. The irony is not lost on me that you made the next post after I used our relationship with Italy as an example.

[marino]

That was totally unintentional, soap. Don't get me started on Italy's faults in history, I already have to deal with those of the present... http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/smile.gif

[DailyGrind]

Originally posted by soapbox:

I suppose some of you will say that my suggestion is too weak of a response, but look at it this way. What if we hadn't only nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What if we had wiped Japan, Germany, and Italy off the face of the map the way some are suggesting we do now with any country the terrorists are in? What would the world be like now without Japan, Germany, and Italy? To start with, most of the gear we lust over wouldn't even exist. I know that's a shallow point to bring up, but maybe it will help drive the reality of what we're talking about home...

 

When was the last time you used a piece of musical gear that was designed or manufactured in the middle east? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif I think the belief that we should turn the entire middle east into a parking lot stems from the fact that Japan, Germany and Italy have proven that they can get along with their neighbors while many middle eastern nations have not. It seams like no matter what we do, some middle eastern nations will always be at war with someone. At least this is a common American perception of this region...

[soapbox]

marino, the point that was driven home to me by your post (albeit unintentionally) was that sixty years ago we went to war with Italy. Today, you are holding candlelight vigils in our behalf.

 

I, for one, am thankful for your country's friendship. The point I was trying to make is that mortal enemies can become dear friends if the situation is handled correctly.

 

DailyGrind, if this were sixty years ago, you would say the exact opposite of what you just wrote.

 

If we handle this right, our grandchildren could enjoy the same relationship with the Middle East that we now enjoy with Italy, Japan, and Germany.

 

If we handle this wrong, there may not be any grandchildren anywhere.

[dansouth]

Originally posted by DailyGrind:

When was the last time you used a piece of musical gear that was designed or manufactured in the middle east? http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

About a week ago - Waves plug-ins.

[nursers]

From another website/email:

 

 

Death, Downtown

 

Dear friends,

 

I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight from LAX to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an incredible range of emotions over what has happened on the island where I work and live in New York City.

 

My wife and I spent the first hours of the day after being awakened by phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT trying to contact our daughter at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works near the World Trade Center.

 

I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out, leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live.

 

It was a sick, horrible, frightening day.

 

On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a terrorist incident at the Vienna airport which left 30 people dead, both there and at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of passengers in each city was timed to occur at the same moment.)

 

I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still brings up too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to live a fluke, a mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still here, there but for the grace of

 

Safe. Secure. Im an American, living in America. I like my illusions. I walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons through an x-ray machine, and I know all will be well.

 

Heres a short list of my experiences lately with airport security:

 

* At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The counter cant find my seat. So I am told to just go ahead and get on without a ticket!

 

* At Detroit Metro Airport, I dont want to put the lunch I just bought at the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through the metal detector, I hand the sack to the guard through the space between the detector and the x-ray machine. I tell him Its just a sandwich. He believes me and doesnt bother to check. The sack has gone through neither security device.

 

* At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide to catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with my bag no one knowing what is in it.

 

* Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By the time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the passengers to the terminal has left without me. I am alone on the tarmac, free to wander wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag down a pick-up truck and an airplane mechanic gives me a ride the rest of the way to the terminal.

 

* I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us.

 

Of course, I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops $5.75 an hour to make sure the bad guys dont get on my plane. That is what my life is worth less than the cost of an oil change.

 

Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on American Eagle (the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives around $15,000 a year in annual pay.

 

Thats right $15,000 for the person who has your life in his hands. Until recently, Continental Express paid a little over $13,000 a year. There was one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four kids so he went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps and he was eligible!

 

Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is.

 

So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the FAA is taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one thing the bottom line and the profit margin.

 

Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security on the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only response is thats all?

 

Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the terrorist threat and todays scariest dude on planet earth Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesnt add up.

 

Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path?

 

Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today?

 

Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can I dont know.

 

What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!

 

Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!

 

Dont take my word for it I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us.

 

We abhor terrorism unless were the ones doing the terrorizing.

 

We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers!

 

We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit.

 

We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldnt be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause.

 

Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government.

 

From the first minutes of todays events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that?

 

Maybe its because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. Its much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesnt look like us.

 

Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didnt want to hear any more talk about more money for education or health care we should have only one priority: our self-defense.

 

Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isnt living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes?

 

In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all.

 

The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of God Bless America. Theyre not a bad group of singers!

 

Yes, God, please do bless us.

 

Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes destination of California these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!

 

Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity

 

Lets mourn, lets grieve, and when its appropriate lets examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in.

 

It doesnt have to be like this

 

Yours,

 

Michael Moore

mmflint@aol.com

Michael Moore Home

 

 

------------------

www.mp3.com/thirdstoreystory

[dansouth]

First or all, Ed Koch is a moron whose knowledge of foreign affairs rivals Beavis and Butt-head's understanding of the human genome. I'd sooner take foreign policy advice from Bozo the Clown.

 

Secondly, this tragedy was inspired by America's reputation as a meddling international bully who picks on little countries - notice that nobody is suggesting that we bomb China. We might just get our ass kicked. - How the hell is the bombing of cities in impoverished nations that are still living in the 17th century going to improve this situation?

 

We killed 200,000 Iraqi's last time. That's four times the number of American casualties in all of Viet Nam. An entire generation of young men exterminated. Did THAT help? Did it topple Saddam? Did it put an end to terrorism?

 

Finally, when you drop bombs on countries who habor terrorists and sponsor terrorism, be sure to evacuate Chicago, Los Angeles, et al., because you're going to have to bomb them, too. Every heard of a Contra? Know what it means? A Contra is a mercenary in an El Salvaor death squad, equipped, trained and paid for with American tax dollars. Contras killed nuns, doctors, school teachers, farmers, families, anyone they pleased.

 

Don't like El Salvador? How about the assassination of Chile's Salvador Allende, the attempted assassination of Fidel Castro, the institution of a puppet government in Iran, military equipment and training for Iraq (while they fought Iran), military equipment and training for Afghanastan (while they fought the Soviets). And on, and on, and on. I love the smell of Napalm in the morning!

 

Yeah, let's go bomb every country that harbors or sponsors terrorists. Great idea!

[midispaceho]

I heard about this article while I was listening to the radio and it really made me glad to live in the USA. For those on my list that are Canadian, I thank you and your country for opening your borders to us in our time of crisis. Many of you should back off of the USA, every country has had their indiscretions.

God Bless,

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given

recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from

Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television

commentator. What follows is the full text of his

trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional

Record:

 

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for

the

Americans as the most generous and possibly the

least

appreciated people on all the earth.

 

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and

Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the

Americans who poured in billions of dollars and

forgave other billions in debts. None of these

countries is today paying even the interest on its

remaining debts to the United States.

 

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956,

it was the Americans who propped it up, and their

reward was to be insulted and swindled on the

streets

of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

 

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the

United States that hurries in to help. This spring,

59

American communities were flattened by tornadoes.

Nobody helped.

 

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped

billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now

newspapers in those countries are writing about the

decadent, warmongering Americans.

 

I'd like to see just one of those countries that

is gloating over the erosion of the United States

dollar build its own airplane. Does any other

country

in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo

Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10?

If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the

International lines except Russia fly American

Planes?

 

Why does no other land on earth even consider

putting

a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese

technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about

German

technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find

men on the moon - not once, but several times -

and safely home again.

 

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put

theirs

right in the store window for everybody to look at .

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and

hounded.

They are here on our streets, and most of them,

unless

they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting

American

dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

 

When the railways of France, Germany and India

were breaking down through age, it was the Americans

who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and

the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them

an

old caboose. Both are still broke.

 

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced

to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name

me even one time when someone else raced to the

Americans in trouble? I don't think there was

outside

help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

 

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one

Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get

kicked around. They will come out of this thing with

their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled

to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating

over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not

one of

those."

 

Stand proud, America!

Wear it proudly!!

[mwisniewski]

You know it's been almost a full day later, and I'm am very uncomfortable with how our leaders are reacting.

 

NONE of them are helping at all! I'm still shell-shocked but I'm going back into shock again watching our leaders do absolutely nothing.

 

I don't care about a military exercise, I'm concerned about the emotional well being of the people in the U.S of A. I feel like we're just floundering. What about some emotional support to channel all that's happened in the past few days. Even if the enemy is unknown. We need something to solidify us emotionally, to know that we haven't lost our way, and to be reminded that there's still light up ahead.

 

That whole pathetic show of the Congress or Senate singing in the middle of the tragedy, excuse my French, but who the fuck cares!??!?!!? People all over this nation need re-assurance, even if it's just a few true and emotional, but don't fucking sing, what do they think this is Christmas?

 

I'm a Republican and I had high hopes for Bush and his team, but oh my god, where was he the whole time? Screw security, he's the freaking President, he should have ordered up a squadron of F-18s, cleared the skies above Washington and gone back to the Whitehouse, and then told every American and the World, he wasn't going anywhere. Instead he's in butt-fuck Nebraska. (no offense to Nebraskans meant here) And let's not even start on the robotic speech from hell.

 

The only ones I can say who were worth their salt were all the fire fighters, police, and volunteers helping out in New York. Thank God for Juliani, and thank you Karen Hughes for a little but sorely needed show of real competency and emotion from our elected leaders.

[The T Dot]

Originally posted by midispaceho:

For those on my list that are Canadian, I thank you and your country for opening your borders to us in our time of crisis

 

no problem http://www.musicplayer.com/ubb/wink.gif

[dansouth]

Thanks for the Michael Moore post - my sentiments exactly.

 

As for Gordon Sinclair, I liked many of his comments, but hasn't he ever heard of Airbus, the European consortium that builds plane in Toulouse, France? They're giving Boeing a real run for their money.

[midispaceho]

Originally posted by dansouth@yahoo.com:

Thanks for the Michael Moore post - my sentiments exactly.

 

As for Gordon Sinclair, I liked many of his comments, but hasn't he ever heard of Airbus, the European consortium that builds plane in Toulouse, France? They're giving Boeing a real run for their money.

You are correct, Airbus is a fine and very competitive product.

[Dave Bryce]

Hey, I'm wondering something - perhaps someone else can shed some light on this...

 

How come no one has taken credit for the attacks? Isn't that part of the whole terrorism thing? Didn't Mr. bin Laden take credit for his other little forays?

 

I'm a bit confused.

 

dB

[Bobro]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Hey, I'm wondering something - perhaps someone else can shed some light on this...

 

How come no one has taken credit for the attacks? Isn't that part of the whole terrorism thing? Didn't Mr. bin Laden take credit for his other little forays?

 

I'm a bit confused.

 

dB

 

Especially the holy-war suicide thing... I've been quiet about this whole thing, thinking about the victims. Six degrees of seperation, you know? A lot less than that in this case, for so many people.

 

Anyway the whole thing stinks. When it turns out there are Americans involved in the attacks, what's the plan- carpet bomb their host country?

 

Some real heroes on those planes, taking on the hijackers and laying down their lives willing for others- we guessed right away that was the case for the fourth plane, and when the news came, we were cheering and toasting them with tears in our eyes.

 

-CB

[midispaceho]

I believe the reason no one is taking credit is fear of the American response. I am sure the Afghanistan govt, who are scared shitless, have requested that bin Laden not take credit to save their country. It won't save their country. The US response is going to be SEVERE. I am sure of it. The evidence that is is being released in the media seems to be overwhelming pointing towards bin Laden. We all know if you kill bin Laden and his band of terrorists, you will only worsen the problem by making them martyrs. If you utterly destroy Afghanistan, you may make others think twice. My thoughts are that even the utter destruction of Afghanistan will not solve the problem and this whole thing is absolutely going to progress to an all out world war. I think that there will be more severe terrorists attacks. I think that a terrorist attack involving biologic / chemical / nuclear weapon of mass destruction will be used...probably in Europe or Israel. I think a major world leader will be assasinated - either in the USA or Israel. I think there will be nuclear warfare in the middle east in 2002. You heard it here first. I hope I am wrong, but that is my prediction.

[Gulliver]

Originally posted by Dave Bryce:

Hey, I'm wondering something - perhaps someone else can shed some light on this...

 

How come no one has taken credit for the attacks? Isn't that part of the whole terrorism thing? ...

 

dB

 

I'm afraid that no one among those bin ladens will take the credits ever.

It might be their plan to do such acts from now on periodically just to

make more harm and pain to America (or to some other civilized Western country)

And it might be their concept of so called "holy war".

Vladislav

 

 

This message has been edited by Gulliver on 09-13-2001 at 05:56 AM

[Mats Olsson.]

Originally posted by midispaceho:

The US response is going to be SEVERE.

 

And what if those "clever" high-profile terrorists have nuclear or biological weapons ready to explode in the U.S.A the very same moment Bush responds? You can't win against an unknown enemy. So far they seem to have operated without FBI's & CIA's prior knowledge.

 

FWIW: In Palestine Israel is doing _very_ ugly things right now, very good timing with all media attention turned to Manhattan & Pentagon!

 

We are very close to to end up in a scenario with no winners anywhere, only losers.

 

I think this whole situation is scary as hell!

 

/Mats

 

 

 

This message has been edited by mats.olsson@rockfile.se on 09-13-2001 at 08:04 AM

[midispaceho]

Originally posted by mats.olsson@rockfile.se:

And what if those "clever" high-profile terrorists have nuclear or biological weapons ready to explode in the U.S.A the very same moment Bush responds?

 

Someone else mentioned this and that is an extremely scary thought. It does make sense. Do we potentially play right into their plan, or do nothing and live in fear.

 

 

I think this whole situation is scary as hell!

 

It definitely is.

[d-kay]

Originally posted by mwisniewski:

You know it's been almost a full day later, and I'm am very uncomfortable with how our leaders are reacting.

 

 

Instead he's in butt-fuck Nebraska. (no offense to Nebraskans meant here) And let's not even start on the robotic speech from hell.

 

The only ones I can say who were worth their salt were all the fire fighters, police, and volunteers helping out in New York. Thank God for Juliani, and thank you Karen Hughes for a little but sorely needed show of real competency and emotion from our elected leaders.

 

I saw the news (from Sweden) and I have to agree on Bush handling the situation badly. A little more compassion (not overdo it though) could have been more appropriate. I like the way Giuliani acted in front of the TV-cameras. For some reason he felt more like a true leader than Bush.

 

Giuliani for president!, and I'm not even a US citizen<--!!.

 

For the rest of the posts; Good point of views from all of you!. Nice explaination of the "stick and carrot"-theory, although you left out the European Union as the main reason for a stable europe. Ally with your enemies and you shall have no enemies. Who thought Germany and France ever to becomes friends?.

 

The question now is, "We know the Stick is bombs, but what's the carrot for a country that's back in the 17th century?"

 

 

/d-kay

[steadyb]

Originally posted by d-kay:

"We know the Stick is bombs, but what's the carrot for a country that's back in the 17th century?"

 

 

/d-kay

 

 

Free towels.

[soapbox]

Originally posted by d-kay:

Good point of views from all of you!. Nice explaination of the "stick and carrot"-theory, although you left out the European Union as the main reason for a stable europe.

 

Thanks d-kay. Yes, I've been very encouraged by the EU. It is one of the first steps toward a united world.

 

Originally posted by d-kay:

The question now is, "We know the Stick is bombs, but what's the carrot for a country that's back in the 17th century?"

 

Well, this may be an unusual response; but maybe we should ask them, and then see what we are comfortable in giving.

 

Just an idea...

[soapbox]

CNN just interviewed Dominic Nutt from the Christian Aid organization. He has been working in Afghanistan for some time now.

 

He said that the vast majority of people there are rural villagers who have no way to communicate with the rest of the world. Most of them have no idea who Osama bin Laden is and that the Taliban is like a loose collection of fiefdoms with little centralized power.

 

Mr. Nutt said that if most of the villagers he knew were aware of what had happened to America that "their hearts would bleed" for us! He also said that the main concern of most villagers is starvation; and now that relief workers have evacuated the area in anticipation of US attacks, that the possibility of starvation is even more real.

 

This reinforces, for me, a sense that this terrorism we suffered from was not the act of a country. If Osama bin Laden is responsible, his support comes from a dictator who has a loose hold over a people who have no knowledge or concerns other than day to day survival.

 

Innocent people are innocent people wherever they reside. I hope and pray that our response to the hideous crimes of terrorism will be surgical and just, and that no more innocent people will die.

[Magpel]

Originally posted by soapbox:

Innocent people are innocent people wherever they reside. I hope and pray that our response to the hideous crimes of terrorism will be surgical and just, and that no more innocent people will die.

 

Beautifully put, Soapbox. Stay on your soapbox. You've spoken for me. But my gut tells me this will not be the case. My gut says the slaughter of innocents will proceed exponentially. Blood lust is high, hawks are in office, Bush has added tears to his arsenal. Watch out, non-white, non-western world. Them tears be bombs. It's only natural to want revenge, but, as Mario Cuomo once said, the law and government *should* be above our basest instincts, not a big barrell through which we express them.

Revenge upon whom? Would the simple capture and trial of the perpertrators and their leaders satisfy America's blood lust. I think not. I think America wants to see manifold terror unloosed upon the other, and, in the absence of any clear profile of the other, well, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine ought to do.

 

I'm struggling with my own cycncism over this. I'm still hurting bad over the outrageous act itself. When I try to think about where it leads, I barf.

 

John

[Tusker]

John & Soapbox:

 

You speak for me too. I have this nagging feeling that although we like to say that the terrorists have no power over us, we can overcome them, etc.....the urge to say that is the very anger that can transform this country for worse. Even if the terrorists "have no power" over us, they have brought us to a defining moment.

 

Now is the time to show the world what our character is, if we have one.

 

I think that the natural order is grief before justice. Certainly revenge is out of the question. If we seek revenge, then we become advocates & partisans in the courtroom, not the judge. And America can use this event to reassert moral leadership, as opposed to partisan leadership. It is America's past moral leadership that has built her greatness in the eyes of the world, not just wealth and power.

 

If the terrorists have brought us to a point where we have to choose, let us choose our way, not theirs. I hope that whatever action is taken, it is surgical, logical, and doesn't convert bystanders into opponents like so many actions can.

 

Still hurting too,

 

Jerry

 

 

This message has been edited by Tusker on 09-14-2001 at 08:46 AM