Bad Rap?

[CEB]

I don’t mind the strong Rap elements that are in modern Pop.  Modern Pop helped me grow a lot as an electronic keyboardist in the 2010’s.  I learned much I didn’t know before about music technology.  

[J.F.N.]

4 hours ago, ProfD said:

It bears repeating that Hip-Hop has been around 50 years and counting and it's a multi-billion dollar industry. That's more than an acquired taste with a short shelf life.😎

 

Nobody said anything about it being a bad product, I mean, cigarettes and other tobacco products are total blockbusters, and loads of people adhere to them too..

 

(This is the point where I'm just pulling your leg... 😂)

[CyberGene]

Although rap is not my cup of tea, I've heard some really clever lyrics that are not about crime and sex. And sometimes the rhythms/grooves are very catchy, although a bit repetitive for my taste. What I'm not OK with, though, is for a rap album to be called The Best Album of All Time 😀 Sorry, wrong thread, I'm kicking myself out 😛

[Baldwin Funster]

Hip hop and hard Gangsta rap if related are very distant cousins at this point. I can tolerate things I've heard called hip hop. Aerosmith walk this way collab probably wouldn't be called rap today. Will Smith fresh prince is in that category of hip-hop and rap crossover. I realize my vision of hip-hop is about as culturally relevant as Jan Wenners version of what's called Rock and Roll.

 

[BluMunk]

2 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

Meanwhile, I think what you're noticing in mainstream pop is a freedom and a sense of rebellion that was missing from that very heavily controlled genre 30 years ago.

Great point, and great post.

 

2 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

I'd agree with all of that, but I'd be careful about placing the blame on the artists or their fans, as opposed to the bigger industrial forces involved in "popularity" in the media.

To be clear, I'm not looking at lyrics as morally good or bad, just observing how they make me feel, and how they fit into my limited perspective of "popular music". 

 

This is maybe a discussion for a different time and place, but in considering language in song it's fascinating how different words that all mean the same thing can carry different connotation. I would push back slightly on the assumption that more explicit language is by its nature more frank and powerful, or that it represents a more free, less 'controlled by society/Big Music' form of expression. 

 

 

 

 

[Polychrest]

3 hours ago, SamuelBLupowitz said:

Meanwhile, I think what you're noticing in mainstream pop is a freedom and a sense of rebellion that was missing from that very heavily controlled genre 30 years ago. I'm honestly loving this era of pop that's more open and direct about sexuality (and not just heterosexuality), which was something that was constantly signaled to be deviant and impure in my post-Reagan suburban upbringing.

Quod erat demonstrandum:  https://www.theguardian.com/music/article/2024/jun/04/i-could-eat-that-girl-for-lunch-the-sexually-explicit-queer-female-pop-topping-the-charts?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

Ed Sullivan is no doubt spinning in his grave.  (He told the Rolling Stones to change their lyric “Let’s spend the night together” to “Let’s spend some time together” for his hugely influential prime-time Sunday night show.)

[David Emm]

Eddie Murphy & Joe Piscopo perform "The Honeymooners Rap," which will be a small puzzler for people who aren't old enough to remember Jackie Gleason. If you do, you'll get a good laugh from this. Its a whopper. 4:07.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBfl5P2k3Do

[David Emm]

2 hours ago, Polychrest said:

Ed Sullivan is no doubt spinning in his grave.  (He told the Rolling Stones to change their lyric “Let’s spend the night together” to “Let’s spend some time together” for his hugely influential prime-time Sunday night show.)

 

In an alternate Heaven, there's a moment when Ed innocently introduces Lil Nas X, who breaks into "Montero (Call Me By Your Name)." I love the middle part where Ed's head does a Raiders of the Lost Ark meltdown. 🤯

[RABid]

I always considered gangsta rap more a product of white and asian AR directors and marketing executives targeting young people with something rebellious. I mean, seriously, street rep and jail time as a measure of music talent? My first taste of rap was Big Daddy Kane on Chaka Kahn's I Feel For You. It started off cool, then suddenly, instrument solos in most every radio song was replaced by a rap break. After that, exec's decided that you had to be a criminal to do rap. Everything went down from there and it took a long time for the art to recover.

[stoken6]

17 minutes ago, RABid said:

Big Daddy Kane

Melle Mel, surely?

 

Cheers, Mike.

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, stoken6 said:

Melle Mel, surely?

 

Cheers, Mike.

I think he's thinking of Patti LaBelle.

[Docbop]

2 hours ago, RABid said:

I always considered gangsta rap more a product of white and asian AR directors and marketing executives targeting young people with something rebellious. I mean, seriously, street rep and jail time as a measure of music talent? My first taste of rap was Big Daddy Kane on Chaka Kahn's I Feel For You. It started off cool, then suddenly, instrument solos in most every radio song was replaced by a rap break. After that, exec's decided that you had to be a criminal to do rap. Everything went down from there and it took a long time for the art to recover.

 

You look at the history of Rock and other Arts the Bad Boy image always sells.   Then thing die down a bit and cycle starts again, but you gotta be harder for the new Bad Boy image.   Especially in Rock rebellion drives the popular sounds that sells. 

[jazzpiano88]

I can appreciate it for what it is.....  For me, it's the Special Olympics of real music for people who don't have the ability to participate in the traditional activity (e.g. S.O. for track and field).  In sort of a stroke of fortune, It has struck a chord with a lot of listeners that turn out to be optimal listeners.  5% of the population are completely tone deaf and probably another 10% are effectively tone deaf.   Alfie is not going to do anything for these people, but Rap will light up their MRI like a Drag Racing Christmas Tree.      

 

I'll tune in to the Special Olympics on TV if I surf across it -- I like seeing people with disabilities participating and succeeding,  I'll take a gander at a Rap 'song' or two for the novelty now and then.   At the Grammy presentations, it's definitely a novelty that is very interesting to observe, especially when convoluted with the fore mentioned societal element.

 

Occasionally someone with a different competitional or performance attribute actually blows the traditional people out of the water, as their unique ability serves as an actual advantage.   That runner with the blades for feet  propelling him is an example.   Another is the Woman who was born as a Man who is now blowing away the Women's swimming competition record books.    

 

 

 

[RABid]

4 hours ago, stoken6 said:

Melle Mel, surely?

 

Cheers, Mike.

You are correct. Years ago I looked the song up on the internet to see who the rapper was and the information I found named Big Daddy Kane. I guess you cannot believe everything you read on the internet. Who knew? 🙃

[TommyRude]

2 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I can appreciate it for what it is.....  For me, it's the Special Olympics of real music for people who don't have the ability to participate in the traditional activity (e.g. S.O. for track and field).  In sort of a stroke of fortune, It has struck a chord with a lot of listeners that turn out to be optimal listeners.  5% of the population are completely tone deaf and probably another 10% are effectively tone deaf.   Alfie is not going to do anything for these people, but Rap will light up their MRI like a Drag Racing Christmas Tree.      

 

I'll tune in to the Special Olympics on TV if I surf across it -- I like seeing people with disabilities participating and succeeding,  I'll take a gander at a Rap 'song' or two for the novelty now and then.   At the Grammy presentations, it's definitely a novelty that is very interesting to observe, especially when convoluted with the fore mentioned societal element.

 

Occasionally someone with a different competitional or performance attribute actually blows the traditional people out of the water, as their unique ability serves as an actual advantage.   That runner with the blades for feet  propelling him is an example.   Another is the Woman who was born as a Man who is now blowing away the Women's swimming competition record books.

[Leroy C]

I'm a huge fan of blues.  Once I started seeing the connections between blues and rap, it really opened my mind and I finally gave rap a serious listen.  I won't say I've suddenly become a huge fan, but at least I know there's a lot more to it than I had realized.

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, Leroy C said:

I'm a huge fan of blues.  Once I started seeing the connections between blues and rap, it really opened my mind and I finally gave rap a serious listen.  I won't say I've suddenly become a huge fan, but at least I know there's a lot more to it than I had realized.

and the connection between the rhythms the rappers are using are from Jazz and other music,  they use ride cymbal or hi-hat patterns.    Plus how the drum set they have changed up what drum/cymbal hit where within a beat.   Come from the J Dilla and today Chris Dave patterns.   

[TommyRude]

Back around 1981, my bar band covered this rap classic.  NOT SAFE FOR WORK!

 

[jazzpiano88]

On 6/4/2024 at 9:33 PM, TommyRude said:

On 6/4/2024 at 6:41 PM, jazzpiano88 said:

I can appreciate it for what it is.....  For me, it's the Special Olympics of real music for people who don't have the ability to participate in the traditional activity (e.g. S.O. for track and field).  In sort of a stroke of fortune, It has struck a chord with a lot of listeners that turn out to be optimal listeners.  5% of the population are completely tone deaf and probably another 10% are effectively tone deaf.   Alfie is not going to do anything for these people, but Rap will light up their MRI like a Drag Racing Christmas Tree.      

 

I'll tune in to the Special Olympics on TV if I surf across it -- I like seeing people with disabilities participating and succeeding,  I'll take a gander at a Rap 'song' or two for the novelty now and then.   At the Grammy presentations, it's definitely a novelty that is very interesting to observe, especially when convoluted with the fore mentioned societal element.

 

Occasionally someone with a different competitional or performance attribute actually blows the traditional people out of the water, as their unique ability serves as an actual advantage.   That runner with the blades for feet  propelling him is an example.   Another is the Woman who was born as a Man who is now blowing away the Women's swimming competition record books.

Expand  

 

Haha!  :). That's what I thought. 

 

Most people can't handle it when their world view is told to them to blow it out of their ass.  

 

Especially employees at colleges and universities, where they unknowingly but especially need, and can benefit from, an independent Roto Rootering.  

 

And I'm especially directing this to "you know who", 

[Adan]

9 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

Haha!  :). That's what I thought. 

 

Most people can't handle it when their world view is told to them to blow it out of their ass.  

 

Especially employees at colleges and universities, where they unknowingly but especially need, and can benefit from, an independent Roto Rootering.  

 

And I'm especially directing this to "you know who", 

OK, so the thesis from your first post in this thread is that there's a large overlap between people who appreciate rap and people who lack a musical ear. Is that more or less your contention? 

 

The follow up question is, do you think that thesis actually finds verification in the real world? Because it doesn't ring true to me. I know tons of good musicians who appreciate and listen to rap. To them (and to me) it's just a different art form, and one doesn't exclude the other. I think of the "music" part of rap music as being the vehicle for the words, and specifically designed to not create too much of a distraction from the words.

 

Also, this has nothing to do with what the OP seemed to be complaining about, which I took to be the literal subject matter of some rap music.

[D. Gauss]

Damn, there's a lot of ignorance in this thread.   Back in the day, as a recording engineer for a NYC studio, I recorded tons of hip hop/rap records for some pretty big artists. To say you "don't like" rap is one thing, questioning talent is quite another, and is demonstratively incorrect. I can assure you that most of the people i worked with were extremely talented, dedicated, and taught me so much about a musical form I literally knew nothing about until i was thrown into it.  Your musical taste may not appreciate the end result, but seeing what people like J. Dilla and Grandmaster Flash brought to the recording process is certainly worthy of respect. 

 

Oh, and dirty/violent lyrics?  Come on, that's old hat. Heck, forget Led Zep's "Lemon Song," Plant stole it part and parcel from Robert Johnson's 1937 "Travelling Riverside Blues."  Hell, bluesman Pat Hare sang "I'm gonna murder my baby" in 1955 and in 1963, that's exactly what he did (murdered his married girlfriend and her husband).  And don't get me started on Opera...

[AROIOS]

The trap folks often fall into on this type of discussion, is talking about an entire genre without getting into the specifics; and when they do, it's often anecdotal evidence statistically non-representative.
 

As with any genre and styles, we can look at HipHop through the lenses of 1) Melody; 2) Harmony; 3) Rhythm; 4) Timbre (sound design). Those who love non-instrumental music might add 5) Lyrics. (or "Rap" in this case)
 

No one can deny that HipHop made significant contributions to popular music in 3) and 4). And sampling, an essential technique of this genre's production process, helped discover and promote 2) from other genres.
 

1) is simply not the focus of HipHop; 5) is really more Literature than Music; and then there are 6) "Cultural Significance", and 7) "Lifestyle", which again, aren't really about "Music" per se.
 

The OP's focus was on 7) and 5). Counter arguments citing 2), 3) and 4) would be off topic, and conflating Gansta-Rap with drastically different sub-genres like BoomBap or Dilla Beats under the same broad stroke of "HipHop" doesn't help either.

[Outkaster]

This thread is getting into dangerous territory. I'll leave it at that.

[ProfD]

6 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

The trap folks often fall into on this type of discussion, is talking about an entire genre without getting into the specifics; and when they do, it's often anecdotal evidence statistically non-representative.

The rhetorical question I have is why are these uninterested people even talking about Hip-Hop. 

 

I don't see the same amount of criticism and energy being expended on Rock or Country music or Bluegrass.

 

I already have an idea of which way the member demographics of this forum leans. Slightly amusing when certain topics bring it out.😎

[AROIOS]

18 minutes ago, ProfD said:

The rhetorical question I have is why are these uninterested people even talking about Hip-Hop. 

 

I don't see the same amount of criticism and energy being expended on Rock or Country music or Bluegrass.

 

I already have an idea of which way the member demographics of this forum leans. Slightly amusing when certain topics bring it out.😎

Yup, can't remember the last time I heard a Hiphop or even Urban beat on this forum.

The original post was really a political discussion disguised as a musical one. Not that I'm trying to act politically correct or point fingers, it's just that those kind of topics never get anywhere productive on a music forum.

I'm personally more interested in talking about the dope harmony and rhythm of the Blowfly tune Tommy posted, than bashing the obvious misogyny of its lyrics... Oh wait, did I just open another can of worms unintentionally? 😆

[zephonic]

Wow, OP really should have started this thread 35 years ago...

[ProfD]

5 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

Yup, can't remember the last time I heard a Hiphop or even Urban beat on this forum.

Don't wait on it either.🤣

5 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

The original post was really a political discussion disguised as a musical one.

Right.  Thankfully, there are just enough informed members to call it out.

5 minutes ago, AROIOS said:

I'm personally more interested in talking about the dope harmony and rhythm of the Blowfly tune Tommy posted..

Blowfly is an off-shoot of Dolemite.  More than enough dope beats, harmony and basslines and misogyny to go around.😁😎

[Leroy C]

[David Emm]

Does this count? Seems like it should. Luther Thomas & Dizzazz, with their tender ballad, "Yo' Mama."

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqkDSu81Q5c

[MathOfInsects]

"This orange soda is terrible, it tastes nothing like tunafish!"