Viscount Legend Soul 261 vs. the rest

[Niall01]

On 5/30/2024 at 2:46 AM, Aynsley Green said:

 

Sorry if my description was a bit jargon-heavy. Don't worry about what the Drawbars are called, it's not that important.
We notate drawbar settings as using numbers, going left to right - 888000000 means the first three drawbars pulled all the way out (the classic Jimmy Smith setting).

If there's a lot of zeroes in the setting, we abbreviate that notation to just 888.

 

So one might notate a setting thusly:
Jimmy Smith = 888, C3, 3rd, Short, Soft, Stop
Which is shorthand for First three drawbars out all the way, Chorus set to C3, Percussion set to 3rd, Short length, and Soft, and the Leslie set to Stop.

Standard Rock = 8886, Dry, 2nd, Short, Normal, Chorale
First three drawbars out all the way, 4th drawbar out to 6, turn the CV off, Percussion set to 2nd, Short length, Normal volume, and the Leslie set to Chorale (also known as Slow)

 

So for your Jazz 'Left Hand Bass & Right Hand Melody' gig, this would be my go-to setting:
Upper = 888300123, Dry, 3rd, Short, Normal, Stop
Lower = 747000010, C3

Pedal = 82

 

There are, of course, many different drawbar settings for different styles and contexts - check out videos of big names like Joey DeFrancesco or Dr. Lonnie Smith and try to reverse-engineer what settings they are using. But also, half the fun is finding your own. 

Drive/Distortion is a big part of the sound - the XK3c has real tube distortion so get that cranked up to your liking, one of it's best features. Working the Swell pedal is important here - the Drive changes according to how much you are stepping on the gas.

 

There's also the rabbit hole of Leslies and Leslie Sims - that's a whole other subject.

 

Hammond XK3c was my first Hammond, I kind of miss it! The Leslie Sim is probably its weakest point, but it's still a great machine to learn on.

 

Hope that helps Niall!

Thank very much for all that information Aynsley.  Did you get you're Viscount Soul yet or are you still waiting?

[Aynsley Green]

On 6/18/2024 at 4:44 AM, Niall01 said:

Thank very much for all that information Aynsley.  Did you get you're Viscount Soul yet or are you still waiting?

 

I did indeed, have posted an early review here:

 

https://forums.musicplayer.com/topic/191135-viscount-legend-soul-261-review/

[JoJoB3]

On 5/22/2024 at 4:50 AM, Ginso100 said:

I recently purchased the Viscount Legend Soul 273.  I love it.  Its my first real clonewheel, so I don't have a ton to compare to.  But I will say everything about it so far has been great.  Sim seems great.  Keybed seems great.  And the desktop app to change settings if you want to get into it feels pretty straightforward.  I also purchased the Vortex speaker, their leslie-like model, that goes with it.  That has been more problematic.  The unit I got rattled and shook whenever it was rotating.  I took it back to the store I bought it and they told me thats the third unit they've sold thats had that problem.  Feels like there might be a quality control issue on the Vortexes.  I've ordered another one and the store is going to test it for me before i come pick it up....  

It seems indeed tough to recreate a real leslie. Not sure 'quality control' is the culprit.  Perhaps later revisions resolve. How bad was bad?

Don Leslie had it about as right as could be with the 21/22/31h, 122, 147 (maybe include the 222 as well).  Cabinet design with careful porting, type of wood, felt/foam surrounding removable back panel, rubber grommets on motor mounts.
You know though, vintage leslies that have been schlepped around can rattle (and a chipped horn can make em shake).  Most often it's a matter of tightening this, deadening that to quiet (but they can and do sometimes make their own sympathetic vibration noises regardless.  Part of it's thing). 
 

I wouldn't mind the Soul 273 for one big fat reason - rocker tabs (c/v and perc switching, etc). How they hold up over time compared to vintage an unknown but rocker tab switching beats little buttons and knobs in the heat of live performance.  Sounds like it will sound good via a vintage leslie too (onboard sim is ok like most others, but still...sim).

For the price of these things though (includes all the latest actually) I do wish it were modular (use 1 manual or both based on usage).
XK series can do this but their H-Bus change (👎) and XLK series LM change in design creates needless added setup and transport attention (which is the last thing I want more of)
example: the previous XLK-3 LM loads flat and flush in a case (that makes for saner load and space), the latest XLK...a headscratcher why they changed it.

Always concerned about midi specs as well. Some companies try to offer wide support (H/S does a decent job here) while others not so much.

 

[Aynsley Green]

11 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

It seems indeed tough to recreate a real leslie. Not sure 'quality control' is the culprit.  Perhaps later revisions resolve. How bad was bad?

Don Leslie had it about as right as could be with the 21/22/31h, 122, 147 (maybe include the 222 as well).  Cabinet design with careful porting, type of wood, felt/foam surrounding removable back panel, rubber grommets on motor mounts.
You know though, vintage leslies that have been schlepped around can rattle (and a chipped horn can make em shake).  Most often it's a matter of tightening this, deadening that to quiet (but they can and do sometimes make their own sympathetic vibration noises regardless.  Part of it's thing). 
 

I wouldn't mind the Soul 273 for one big fat reason - rocker tabs (c/v and perc switching, etc). How they hold up over time compared to vintage an unknown but rocker tab switching beats little buttons and knobs in the heat of live performance.  Sounds like it will sound good via a vintage leslie too (onboard sim is ok like most others, but still...sim).

For the price of these things though (includes all the latest actually) I do wish it were modular (use 1 manual or both based on usage).
XK series can do this but their H-Bus change (👎) and XLK series LM change in design creates needless added setup and transport attention (which is the last thing I want more of)
example: the previous XLK-3 LM loads flat and flush in a case (that makes for saner load and space), the latest XLK...a headscratcher why they changed it.

Always concerned about midi specs as well. Some companies try to offer wide support (H/S does a decent job here) while others not so much.

 

 

Leslie Sims are a necessary evil - they've gotten much better in the last ten years, but we may never be able to digitally recreate the spatial aspect of the sound. If you're playing a big room, it's going to get miced up anyway.

 

I do miss the 'full-fat' experience of chunky rocker switches and so forth on the 273, but the 261 is already pretty large - I doubt I'd be able to fit the 273 in my sedan, or schlep it up a narrow stairway by myself.

 

Totally agree on the new XK5 rig, Hammond really should not have changed it - one of the best features of the XK3c was being able to yank the Upper off for a rock gig, and keep the 'serious rig' set up at home.

That said, asserting dominance by bringing the two-manual beast to your rock gig is a bit of a power move.

[JoJoB3]

1 hour ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

Leslie Sims are a necessary evil - they've gotten much better in the last ten years, but we may never be able to digitally recreate the spatial aspect of the sound. If you're playing a big room, it's going to get miced up anyway.

 

I do miss the 'full-fat' experience of chunky rocker switches and so forth on the 273, but the 261 is already pretty large - I doubt I'd be able to fit the 273 in my sedan, or schlep it up a narrow stairway by myself.

 

Totally agree on the new XK5 rig, Hammond really should not have changed it - one of the best features of the XK3c was being able to yank the Upper off for a rock gig, and keep the 'serious rig' set up at home.

That said, asserting dominance by bringing the two-manual beast to your rock gig is a bit of a power move.

Yeah, there was zero need to stray from that (XLK3)...and add the 'H-bus' stuff too.  Sure, I'd LOVE to be locked into another proprietary cable/connection while out on the road. That kind of stuff never gets damaged or lost. /sarcasm

Haha! But that dominance I once thought struck fear only backfired later.  I haul real Ham/Leslie 90% of the time. That shiz is heavy (then again these mentioned clones here aren't that light either).

[Aynsley Green]

1 hour ago, JoJoB3 said:

Yeah, there was zero need to stray from that (XLK3)...and add the 'H-bus' stuff too.  Sure, I'd LOVE to be locked into another proprietary cable/connection while out on the road. That kind of stuff never gets damaged or lost. /sarcasm
 

Yeah, I have owned/used the XK3c Kit, SK2 and the Portable B3 Mk 1, and they all had unnecessarily complicated cabling/set up/bullshit. And the prices these days are absurd - they're still selling the SK2, for double what I paid for it 12 years ago! 

Miss me with that nonsense. Viscount is a much better value proposition

 

[JoJoB3]

3 hours ago, Aynsley Green said:

Viscount is a much better value proposition

 

Mmm...not quite sure about that though. It's better than the Legend. ALL these plastic things should be no more than $2k a pop new or less for what they're made of and are  (I first look good-used anyway).

[Aynsley Green]

7 hours ago, JoJoB3 said:

Mmm...not quite sure about that though. It's better than the Legend. ALL these plastic things should be no more than $2k a pop new or less for what they're made of and are  (I first look good-used anyway).

 

In this economy?!? 🤑

[Delaware Dave]

33 minutes ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

In this economy?!? 🤑

 

The Mojo Classic is selling at Thomanns for $1459.  Is there a  better value proposition than that in this economy?

[JoJoB3]

58 minutes ago, Aynsley Green said:

 

In this economy?!? 🤑

 

Yes

[Adan]

It's easy to say what we think something should cost. I think the plate of out-of-the-box pasta I order for my kids at a restaurant should cost $4, not $14.

 

There's enough competition in the clone space to give some assurance that these companies are not gratuitously inflating prices. Crumar, Viscount, Hammond (not to mention Nord, etc which are more diverse but also provide competition) all have an incentive to provide the best value at the best price they can offer. I'd caveat that by saying I think Hammond capitalizes on its corporate name to inflate prices.

 

I'm a fan of both Crumar and Viscount. They kind of complement each other in the market, because Crumar is investing less in the hardware (e.g., real time controls) while offering a lower price for a similarly good organ emulation. Based on anectodal evidence, Crumar products are not as dodgy when it comes to reliablity as they at one time were (I've had my own issues with them). But the fit and finish of Viscount is clearly superior. If that matters to you, then you might pay more for it. If it doesn't, then you might not.

[HammondDave]

11 minutes ago, Adan said:

It's easy to say what we think something should cost. I think the plate of out-of-the-box pasta I order for my kids at a restaurant should cost $4, not $14.

 

There's enough competition in the clone space to give some assurance that these companies are not gratuitously inflating prices. Crumar, Viscount, Hammond (not to mention Nord, etc which are more diverse but also provide competition) all have an incentive to provide the best value at the best price they can offer.

 

I'm a fan of both Crumar and Viscount. They kind of complement each other in the market, because Crumar is investing less in the hardware (e.g., real time controls) while offering a lower price for a similarly good organ emulation. Based on anectodal evidence, Crumar products are not as dodgy when it comes to reliablity as they at one time were (I've had my own issues with them). But the fit and finish of Viscount is clearly superior. If that matters to you, then you might pay more for it. If it doesn't, then you might not.

I have found that the Italian companies always offer incredible value and quality. I play a Crumar MOJO and a Studiologic Numa Piano X.  Both instruments are well designed, sound as good (if not better) as their Japanese competitors, and are priced considerably lower.  

[Delaware Dave]

1 hour ago, Adan said:

Crumar is investing less in the hardware (e.g., real time controls) while offering a lower price for a similarly good organ emulation

I kind of like this philosophically. as an example no 11 pin connector , two sets of drawbars vs. 4.  Is viscount more 'authentic' in layout, yes.  To many people an 11 pin connector is not necessary (i dont even have a leslie that connects 11 pin). You get one with Viscount and Hammond whether you want it or not, you are also paying for it whether you want it or not. If you really need one crumar offers an a la cart solution with the 11 connector.  I believe this is how they are able to keep their prices down.  One thing that they didnt cut corners on is the sound, to me this is the most important part.  I've been playing clones and midi modules for 30 years so i've mastered playing on non-authentic layouts. If it sounds right i can get into a vibe when playing. Another reason i ditched my XM2 module, the c/v was awful and would frustrate me as i was playing it where with vb3 it is spot on and i instantly feel the vibe. The Viscount Soul has the 9 key contacts, this is cool but in a r&r environment i couldnt even hear it.  I guess if i were a jazz player it might make a difference but under the conditions that i play in it doesnt matter but i'd still have to pay a premium for that feature.  I do wish the mojo 61 had 2 sets of drawbars but my lower manual keyboard has 9 sliders so i get there without the feature (nor paying for it).

 

[JoJoB3]

6 hours ago, Adan said:

It's easy to say what we think something should cost. I think the plate of out-of-the-box pasta I order for my kids at a restaurant should cost $4, not $14.

 

 

Trust yourself. It likely should be ($4), but we don't care. The kid's got to eat and $10 is not going to stand in the way of that 'need'.

These are luxury items of the usual plastics and circuit boards. If even just right there we're on poor footing in justification (this has little to do with how cool the widget is btw). Everything from R&D to packaging is always a varied factor (and yeah they should be able to profit from units sold).   I'm only relaying honestly what I feel these rather targeted type of keyboards are worth (these aren't 'organs', they're keyboards and this isn't 2020 or '21 anymore).  Overall, these particular widgets often can and do have a finite life as well.

Ok, let's say $2500 per unit.

And Nord models are famously overpriced as well. See also: Apple Corp (I'm sorry)

[mrk7421]

As far as "the rest" go ...I just picked up a Roland VR 760 and I am amazed at how good it really is. The chorus vibrato is comparable to both my Viscount and Mojo modules. But two things really surprised me. The first is the keybed but the killer is the Leslie simulation. This is not the same Leslie sim that I remember from years back on a VK8m module. This Leslie does not seem to affect the tone of the percussion....a big problem on one of the more popular clones. The only problem is that the VR 760 does not split upper and lower organ so I had to make a lower manual controller  There are a lot of Roland haters on this forum but I am liking this  Roland as much or more than anything I have tried.

[JoJoB3]

2 minutes ago, mrk7421 said:

As far as "the rest" go ...I just picked up a Roland VR 760 and I am amazed at how good it really is. The chorus vibrato is comparable to both my Viscount and Mojo modules. But two things really surprised me. The first is the keybed but the killer is the Leslie simulation. This is not the same Leslie sim that I remember from years back on a VK8m module. This Leslie does not seem to affect the tone of the percussion....a big problem on one of the more popular clones. The only problem is that the VR 760 does not split upper and lower organ so I had to make a lower manual controller  There are a lot of Roland haters on this forum but I am liking this  Roland as much or more than anything I have tried.

Same goes for their 730 and 09, perc isn't affected (vers 1.12).  The 760 is just an older board and unfortunately the design doesn't cater to what you want/need (in RE to split functionality). Better keybed though! Roland isn't beyond critique but I don't get the feeling there are a lot of Roland haters here.

[mrk7421]

At least a few years ago when I mentioned liking Roland the haters were out in full force. One of them was a prominent Hammond Suzuki endorsee who even went so low as to suggest that I had some inadequate body parts.....there had been some discussion also that quite a few of us were not wild about Hammond Suzuki . Anyway maybe that is past.                                                                                                                 I haven't had opportunity to get my hands on the VR09 since I re discovered the Roland 760 but I hold out hope that the organ sample is the same as the 760.  Roland doesn't seem to be as serious as they were in the day of VK7 and VK8 etc.but I would have owned a VK8 back then if the keybed didn't double trigger. The 760 does not do this

[Outkaster]

The Clone wars continue....24 years and counting.

[Aynsley Green]

8 hours ago, Delaware Dave said:

 

The Mojo Classic is selling at Thomanns for $1459.  Is there a  better value proposition than that in this economy?

 

Not a bad option, but not the same level of layout, build quality, aesthetics, or sound. Not to mention Crumar's previous reliability issues - I wouldn't trust it. 

 

The Viscount is pricey, but still a lot cheaper than a Hammond XK5 Kit. 

[dazzjazz]

1 hour ago, Outkaster said:

The Clone wars continue....24 years and counting.

I think the clone wars are over, well at least for me. What I have works very well. I no longer chase that final 2% and I concentrate on making the music as best as I can. 

One observation is that some people will spend an inordinate amount time fussing over this and that aspect of a clone, constantly editing the one they have, or constantly buying and selling instruments.  Yet when it comes to amplification, they buy the lightest, cheapest speakers, with under powered amps and horrible sounding plastic boxes. Such a false economy in my opinion. 

[Mitch Towne]

The Mojo Classic build quality is fantastic and the aesthetics are gorgeous. It’s a fantastic feeling and looking instrument - a huge upgrade from the original Mojos. The wood color is appropriate. The action feels closer to the real thing than every other clone I’ve tried (and I’ve tried them all) and the drawbars click satisfyingly and move easily. All the controls are in the right places and the additional on-the-panel dials are smartly assigned (percussion volume, Leslie balance and mic distance, reverb, key click, distortion.) 

 

Not to mention the realism of the sound. 

 

If you’ve overlooked a Crumar because of past Mojo models, you’re missing out. 

[Adan]

14 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

I think the clone wars are over, well at least for me. What I have works very well. I no longer chase that final 2% and I concentrate on making the music as best as I can. 
 

 

I've been feeling this way for several years at least. The top tier clones are all good enough that if you're still obsessing over which one has the best C/V, then maybe you should be re-examining your priorities, because the audience isn't going to notice or care. 

 

For me, a decision amongst clones is more likely to be based on the peripherals such as: price (advantage Crumar), do you need an all-in-one board (advantage Nord, Yamaha), ability to integrate with software sounds, portability, etc . . . 

 

These peripheral considerations get into more individualized territory, and so the most useful debate is no longer which clone is the most authentic emulation (the great "clone war" debates of yore), but rather which one combines a great emulation with the peripherals that work for you in your gigging/studio life.

[Al Quinn]

15 hours ago, dazzjazz said:

I think the clone wars are over, well at least for me. What I have works very well. I no longer chase that final 2% and I concentrate on making the music as best as I can. 

 

+1

 

I realize my SK Pro 61 might not be the absolute best clone available but, because it plays and sounds great, I don't feel motivated to chase whatever improvements are available with other clones. Does my HX3 Expander Module, dual manual Mojo (with Vent 2), or B-3X sound better than the SK Pro? I don't know and have no desire to A/B them -- they're all a blast to play and that's all that matters to me! There's a lot to be said for stopping the gear churn and putting more focus on the music itself.

[re Pete]

MT-"The Mojo Classic build quality is fantastic and the aesthetics are gorgeous. It’s a fantastic feeling and looking instrument - a huge upgrade from the original Mojos."

 

I have an early 2 manual mojo when they first came out. What is the difference? I know I have stiffer keys, but wasn't what I have the classic?

[Delaware Dave]

2 hours ago, re Pete said:

MT-"The Mojo Classic build quality is fantastic and the aesthetics are gorgeous. It’s a fantastic feeling and looking instrument - a huge upgrade from the original Mojos."

 

I have an early 2 manual mojo when they first came out. What is the difference? I know I have stiffer keys, but wasn't what I have the classic?

 

Aside from the upgraded keybed that feels pretty close to some vintage hammonds

 

- Improved the keyclick, the cross-talk, introduced the "complex crosstalk on upper manual"
- Improved the Rotary Speaker algorithm and added 7 new parameters
- Modified "OLD" resistor wire set to have a better drawbar balance on the top octave
- Added new resistor wire set that disables the foldback (Spinet style)
- two new parameters in the "Other Settings" group, KeyClick Release and Bounce, to adjust the amount of keyclick that is generated when a key is released and whenever a key "bounce" is detected
- Rotary FX: Extended rotation speed and ramp time ranges, and now displayed in actual Hz and Seconds

 

Also, from some inside information I was told that GSI/Crumar is using an alternative material/parts supplier and a noticeable decline in defective parts has resulted.

 

 

[mrburls]

I'm looking at the legend soul 261 or the Crumar Mojo Classic. The 9 key contacts on the Legend seem really enticing. I think the Crumar sounds better though at least from the videos I've seen on it. The Legend seems a little 'bright' and digital, but maybe that is tweakable. I did make a custom 12BH7 preamp that I use for more gain, and it looks like you can run an FX loop through the Legend?  I think I'm going with the Legend though. I have a Crumar 7 and I absolutely love it, but its my second one. I had one bad right out of the box. Viscount seems to a bit better quality maybe, and I'm looking for reliability since Organ is my main rig. Right now, I'm running a Nord C1 with an HX3 module and custom drawbar unit I made played through a Leslie 145, but I'm looking to have something that is easier to setup and has action that is most Hammond like. I suppose if I really don't like the sound of the Legend, I could still use my HX3 expander, but it kind of defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do.

[Outkaster]

It's interesting because there are more threads dedicated to the clones than the real thing.  Those kinds of threads are on the Facebook technicians page mostly not so much around here. 

[Adan]

Putting aside price, the only criticism I have of the Soul 261 is that it's a bit cumbersome to transport compared to other double manual clones. The numbers may not seem all that different on paper, but in your hands the difference is very noticeable. If I was shopping for a double manual clone and knew I'd be moving it around a lot, I might lean towards the Crumar or Hammond just for that reason.

[mrburls]

3 hours ago, Adan said:

Putting aside price, the only criticism I have of the Soul 261 is that it's a bit cumbersome to transport compared to other double manual clones. The numbers may not seem all that different on paper, but in your hands the difference is very noticeable. If I was shopping for a double manual clone and knew I'd be moving it around a lot, I might lean towards the Crumar or Hammond just for that reason.

Good to know. How is the 9 contact system on the Legend? It seems like its pretty realistic. Curious how a non Fatar keybed feels.

[b3plyr]

1 hour ago, mrburls said:

Good to know. How is the 9 contact system on the Legend? It seems like its pretty realistic. Curious how a non Fatar keybed feels.

9 Contact system is great and as everything else, is tweakable. And I like the keybed, but individual opinions differ.