Roland RD-08

[CHarrell]

2 hours ago, ElmerJFudd said:

I find the PHA50 keys a tad slower on return than the PHA4.   ymmv 

 

The PHA50 feels very different to me depending on the instrument it's in...either that or it's that wear down talked about earlier. The 50 feels much better on the Fantom 8 than the RD2000, for example. 

[Paul Woodward]

8 hours ago, AnotherScott said:

They wanted a $999 model under their $1299 model. And if someone later decides, ooh, I underbought, they have an upgrade option. Not the worst thing.

A software upgrade or a physical upgrade (like Korg replacing the Nautilus keybed) for £299 maybe, but switching on a hardware feature already in the machine, not so much. Any manufacturing costs they might claim are involved in the upgrade were already there in the board when you bought it, just inactive. 

[DeltaJockey]

Whether it's something that the buyer may later benefit from or not, I think it's generally considered socially distasteful to lockout an existing product or service in the possession of the purchaser until a fee is paid.

There are subtle variances on this business model that are less related to a form of extortion. More specifically, acquiring  expansion hardware, or paying for access to software that resides somewhere else is one thing, but paying for permission to use something you've essentially purchased and have in your possession, ie usb audio DACS, is to me, a fine line crossed.

[Dockeys]

I wonder how long before someone works out how to hack the hardware update and activate it without paying Roland?

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, Dockeys said:

I wonder how long before someone works out how to hack the hardware update and activate it without paying Roland?

Compared to say, a Sony PlayStation or iPhone, it’s a relatively niche product.  I don’t think it will gain hackers attention.  

[TJ Cornish]

2 hours ago, DeltaJockey said:

Whether it's something that the buyer may later benefit from or not, I think it's generally considered socially distasteful to lockout an existing product or service in the possession of the purchaser until a fee is paid.

There are subtle variances on this business model that are less related to a form of extortion. More specifically, acquiring  expansion hardware, or paying for access to software that resides somewhere else is one thing, but paying for permission to use something you've essentially purchased and have in your possession, ie usb audio DACS, is to me, a fine line crossed.

I don’t disagree, and hate the subscription model, too, which is one of the primary reasons I play self-contained keyboards rather than the soft-synth model. The solution to this is voting with our feet.

 

I will counter my own argument that the professional instrument market is not exactly highly lucrative due to a very low number of units sold, and we can be a demanding bunch, so I understand the need to explore all revenue options, but there is a point where enough is enough. This has happened to ProTools, Waves, and a number of other products where subscription greed has turned out to drive people to other products as people don’t see enough value for the new price and get understandably concerned when something they have been using in the past suddenly gets 300% more expensive. 

[ElmerJFudd]

9 hours ago, TJ Cornish said:

I don’t disagree, and hate the subscription model, too, which is one of the primary reasons I play self-contained keyboards rather than the soft-synth model. The solution to this is voting with our feet.

 

I will counter my own argument that the professional instrument market is not exactly highly lucrative due to a very low number of units sold, and we can be a demanding bunch, so I understand the need to explore all revenue options, but there is a point where enough is enough. This has happened to ProTools, Waves, and a number of other products where subscription greed has turned out to drive people to other products as people don’t see enough value for the new price and get understandably concerned when something they have been using in the past suddenly gets 300% more expensive. 

Based on the number of flash sales and efforts like this to tie hardware to functionality to an account with a subscription service I’d say that generally speaking there’s only so many subs musicians are willing to take on (if any) and they are having trouble with growth.  

[Stokely]

I own a ton of soft synths, none are subscription and hopefully will stay that way.

That said, I did take a flyer on one subscription due to 1) the extremely low price, I got a sale and an education discount and 2) it was mostly intruments I'm curious about but am not sure how much I'll use.  It's Musio, which consists of the majority of Cinesamples libraries.  

No way on earth I'd get a hardware synth with any kind of ties to a subscription.  That's an instant and hard pass.

[AnotherScott]

Blofeld module requires paying a "license fee" to use its sample function - https://waldorfmusic.com/produkt/blofeld-license-slsoft-version/

 

Whether this cost is a result of Waldorf themselves licensing samples/code from some other provider is unclear. From the user's perspective, does it matter? Is it psychologically more comfortable if you knew that this fee was resulting from something Waldorf, themselves, had to pay? 

 

 

[Ibarch]

Just to point out that this is a one off purchase and not a subscription model. It requires a (free) user account to be registered, but then so do most companies. 

 

Maybe there is a market for products that offer lower base cost, with additional tiers of functionality that can be added either at purchase time or some point in the future. I could see that working. 

 

What I do find difficult is Roland's crude  attempt to graft this type of sales model onto an existing product. Especially as

a) it is marketed as a new product but in reality it is the old product with  software locks welded on top to remove features 

b) the price of this new lower tier is higher than I bought the original fully functional version for not so long ago. 

[ElmerJFudd]

59 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

Blofeld module requires paying a "license fee" to use its sample function - https://waldorfmusic.com/produkt/blofeld-license-slsoft-version/

 

Whether this cost is a result of Waldorf themselves licensing samples/code from some other provider is unclear. From the user's perspective, does it matter? Is it psychologically more comfortable if you knew that this fee was resulting from something Waldorf, themselves, had to pay? 

 

 

And all of Logic Pro is hiding under Garage Band. 

[sam6599643]

5 hours ago, Ibarch said:

Just to point out that this is a one off purchase and not a subscription model. It requires a (free) user account to be registered, but then so do most companies. 

 

Maybe there is a market for products that offer lower base cost, with additional tiers of functionality that can be added either at purchase time or some point in the future. I could see that working. 

 

What I do find difficult is Roland's crude  attempt to graft this type of sales model onto an existing product. Especially as

a) it is marketed as a new product but in reality it is the old product with  software locks welded on top to remove features 

b) the price of this new lower tier is higher than I bought the original fully functional version for not so long ago. 

 

There is an additional factor of its not just a matter of unlocking the device. The owner is also being pushed into handing over their personal info, and registering as a user of a service. Depending on the software solution, now you have installed software “drivers” or “app” on your computer or moblile device that is now phoning HQ regularly with your user activity, “diagnostics” etc. Data is the new oil.

As Roland is venture capital owned, there is underlying urgency to quickly boost numbers that can be used to make the case for a higher exit valuation, such as number of registered users, or active users, percentage of sales revenue derived from sales of products sold directly to user rather than via third party retailers etc.

 

These kind of factors are now driving product design.And not for the better.

[Ibarch]

26 minutes ago, sam6599643 said:

 

There is an additional factor of its not just a matter of unlocking the device. The owner is also being pushed into handing over their personal info, and registering as a user of a service. Depending on the software solution, now you have installed software “drivers” or “app” on your computer or moblile device that is now phoning HQ regularly with your user activity, “diagnostics” etc. Data is the new oil.

As Roland is venture capital owned, there is underlying urgency to quickly boost numbers that can be used to make the case for a higher exit valuation, such as number of registered users, or active users, percentage of sales revenue derived from sales of products sold directly to user rather than via third party retailers etc.

 

These kind of factors are now driving product design.And not for the better.

 

Whatever Roland's reasons for releasing the RD-08, I just don't see Cloud membership and data acquisition as being the main driver - despite all the paranoia here. 

 

A one off purchase for a likely small number of users is a drop in the ocean and will have exactly zero benefit in any valuation. Having just been through a valuation process for my own software business I can tell you a few one off purchases count for nothing. Investors need repeating, guaranteed revenues and high numbers of regular active transacting users. 

 

My view is thst Roland are using their cloud as a single point of sale system that also manages device licensing and authentication. Nothing more. 

 

Fear of Roland Cloud and a hate of subscriptions is, excuse my pun, clouding the view. 

 

This doesn't mean that Roland won't try and utilise their cloud more and tie their hardware in to it in future but to suggest that this is the primary motivation for the RD-08 cannot be right. 

[ElmerJFudd]

59 minutes ago, sam6599643 said:

 

There is an additional factor of its not just a matter of unlocking the device. The owner is also being pushed into handing over their personal info, and registering as a user of a service. Depending on the software solution, now you have installed software “drivers” or “app” on your computer or moblile device that is now phoning HQ regularly with your user activity, “diagnostics” etc. Data is the new oil.

As Roland is venture capital owned, there is underlying urgency to quickly boost numbers that can be used to make the case for a higher exit valuation, such as number of registered users, or active users, percentage of sales revenue derived from sales of products sold directly to user rather than via third party retailers etc.

 

These kind of factors are now driving product design.And not for the better.

Correct, and an owner will have to provide CC because it’s a purchase made through their cloud and requires installing their cloud manager - not a firmware download from Roland.com.  Or if you want it for “free” you’ll purchase one lifetime key.  

They could have taken it a step farther and offered the update as part of a subscription tier but did NOT.  That is true.  But the tactic is obvious. 

[Thethirdapple]

And just to completely jump off the deep end…

 

nothing prevents roland from running a keystroke capture script and build their AI dataset so that they can figure out how to charge me for overusing certain chords…

 

flex pricing 🙃

 

Sorry kiddo, all those arpeggios is putting a drain on our cloud so we’ve upsold you automatically to the next subscription for your convenience. We thank you for being a loyal customer.

 

 

PEACE

_
_
_

[David Emm]

25 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

Whatever Roland's reasons for releasing the RD-08, I just don't see Cloud membership and data acquisition as being the main driver - despite all the paranoia here. 

A one off purchase for a likely small number of users is a drop in the ocean and will have exactly zero benefit in any valuation. Having just been through a valuation process for my own software business I can tell you a few one off purchases count for nothing. Investors need repeating, guaranteed revenues and high numbers of regular active transacting users. 

My view is that Roland are using their cloud as a single point of sale system that also manages device licensing and authentication. Nothing more. 

Fear of Roland Cloud and a hate of subscriptions is, excuse my pun, clouding the view.

 

Well said. I try to keep in mind that as an Old Synth Fart™, I'm naturally going to feel resistant to sea changes in the field for a while. You and sam6599643 have encapsulated the issue neatly. There are so many sketchy ratbags in business that its easy to forget how vital the nuts & bolts are.

 

I'm not wild for the cloud, but having owned Roland hardware that performed at a high level, I was a lock for the Cloud D-50. (Its defining sound is part of the IP, so no emulations are forthcoming.) I never quite landed the real thing, through several swing-&-a-miss moments, so its a serious WIN to have it with endless patch sets and a built-in PG-1000.

 

The RD-08 doesn't wow me personally, but just imagine the starting player who gets one with a D-50 installed. That makes it hella bigger!   

[Ibarch]

The more I think about it, the more this looks like Roland dipping their toes in the water and seeing how the concept of locked down features and pay to upgrade works.

 

If customers don't raise the hue and cry then maybe they'll take that as a success. So, forget my earlier words, we need to make a noise. 

[ElmerJFudd]

40 minutes ago, Ibarch said:

The more I think about it, the more this looks like Roland dipping their toes in the water and seeing how the concept of locked down features and pay to upgrade works.

 

If customers don't raise the hue and cry then maybe they'll take that as a success. So, forget my earlier words, we need to make a noise. 

It’s just the trend.  All businesses want to know who their potential customers are, how to target their marketing to their specific preferences and find a stream of predictable monthly earnings (subscriptions).  
 

They used to pay for names and email addresses.  Stick a registration card in the box to be filled out and mailed in.  Those days are long past. Now it’s about getting us to create the account ourselves, put a CC on file, require a software manager for installation, licensing, account managing, notifications about updates, new versions, new products.   And since few have all the beans to spare in one go - subscriptions.  A little money every month… foreverrrr.  😉

 

 I’m still wondering when Roland’s Zenology controllers without an internal sound engine will arrive - ie. Arturia or Native Instruments.  Unless they feel having the internal sounds is what differentiates them. 

 

 

[Thethirdapple]

Selling access is more profitable than selling products…

 

I was all good with a fully functioning piece of gear with “limited” content. Which a company could then sell me additional content. But selling me the actual functionality, in piece meal fashion on a subscription model is simply absurd!!

 

Mono output is free but stereo output costs extra… and don't even think of digital out unless you buy a lifetime subscription.

 

And I have certainly “rented” software from time to time, especially in a production pinch with no future need for that particular solution… PERFECT

 

Reminds me of buying a car back in the day when the “sticker price” didn't include tires or seats… oh you want seats? Thats extra!

 

More walled gardens

 

Every home a prison
 

 

ok, clearly i got beef

 

PEACE

_
_
_

 

 

[DeltaJockey]

 

Philosophically, there are many ways to view this subscription issue.

 

Coming from the old guard, self confessed paranoia here🥵 I need to be able to satisfy my goal by saving up, and buying a product I know I can continue to use if I am faced with hard times in the future financially. Then, if the urge arises down the track, and I have the funds, I will purchase the next thing. That has been my modus operandi all along.

 

I own all my hardware, it has been fully functional from day one, I can shelve a piece of hardware for as long as I like, and within the hardware ageing reality, I expect I will still have access to it when I want to use it. I also have something of value to onsell to recoupe funds, it has the potential to increase in value if I'm lucky enough for it to become a vintage piece.

 

The thing which most tripped me up with the RD08, was the fact that purchase cost was similar to the RD88, and hardware is provided but de-activated. I'll never come to terms with that, because there are so many questions in relation to its mechanism of permanency. eg, Hardware related firmware resets/scenarios we haven't even thought of.

What happens to on-selling. Once the hardware has been activated, does it not need the original account again?  I could go on!

 

 

On the software side, I'm less polarised,

The subscription model is fine and well, and obviously suits many folk, particularity those with dynamic needs. I'm retired with a fixed income, and to lose access to my software instruments if I fall on hard times, or if I'm shelling out money regularly just for the privilege of keeping access to something I only use sporadically is not a comfortable way of conducting my musical activities.  I don't even use music streaming services for this reason. I have many backed up copies of my life's legitimately owned music collection, which I have access to, even if I was down a cave! Don't ask, you may be surprised, confined acoustics are an interesting field of research!

 

I have a lot of current software from companies whom offer subscription, but I feel more comfortable buying the indefinite licence. I view software differently to hardware, in that it does have a more limited lifetime, and is a licence to use not own. I know the RD08 offers indefinite licences, I'm ok with that.

 

I have already been molded into this way of thinking when it comes to software activation. I have many purchased Kronos Libraries from over the years which I didn't give a second thought, because I think you could extrapolate indefinite licence ultimately from the original idea of demo software being activated. I'm sure most folk take this business model for granted.

 

I understand companies have to develop business models which are sustainable, but I think too, subscriptions may be a way of taking some innovation pressure off companies, so they don't have to constantly bring out new products to generate income.

I'm cool with it all, as long as they don't resort to the only option being periodic subscription. I still prefer the option to be able to buy stuff outright. Look at the ruckus that was caused over at NI when they introduced Komplete subscription, they went to great trouble to assure customers that the indefinite licence would remain.

 

Paranoid? You bet. There's nothing like buying a new toy, and feeling unquestionable ownership of it, it's one of my expressions of living a free life 👍

 

 

 

[AnotherScott]

From a PR standpoint, based on this thread, Roland would have been better off introducing it with no available upgrade... than as with the recent Fantom EX upgrade, a year from now, they could have marketed an RD-08 EX upgrade to add the other features for $xxx.

[DeltaJockey]

22 minutes ago, AnotherScott said:

From a PR standpoint, based on this thread, Roland would have been better off introducing it with no available upgrade... than as with the recent Fantom EX upgrade, a year from now, they could have marketed an RD-08 EX upgrade to add the other features for $299.

Yes true, but they would have had to offer it with no USB audio at all, only USB midi?

 

It sort of reminds me of the local phone carrier. They introduce new communications technology, and charge for the new tech, fine. But they also start charging lots of money per software service, that I know for a fact is intrinsic in the systems which costs them absolutely nothing, as a cash cow.

[Stokely]

I haven't really looked into it that much, as I haven't been close to getting a keyboard where it could pop up (closest would be a Fantom)--but with these user account licenses, how does resale work?  If you are a buyer, do you get access to any add-ons purchased by the previous owner?  Hell, are you really "authorized" to use it at all?   Buying a used Fantom or Fantom-0 that happened to have paid add-ons installed, what happens?  And as a seller, are you even able to sell those?   

[CHarrell]

https://youtu.be/SGI1RJoYe3g?si=UO_cFe-d8YueHyBO

[ElmerJFudd]

1 hour ago, CHarrell said:

https://youtu.be/SGI1RJoYe3g?si=UO_cFe-d8YueHyBO

Nice walk through by our friend Stu at Merriam.  He makes ONE bizarre comment, however.  Did Roland REALLY achieve a better price point by removing functionality of a USB interface that is already physically in the keyboard?  How did they do this?   Was it magical?  
 

It’s not an empty slot where you buy the interface and install it if you want it. It’s already bought and paid for.  They are withholding its use at its price point.  Yes, this scheme may very well be an industry first.  I’m confused on how it’s a selling point.  
 

Getting past that now as we’re all aware of their plan.  $999 is a pretty good price point for a PHA4 stage piano with speakers and the Zencore engine, 3 layers/splits each with their own fx and eq settings.  Yes, if you’re gigging stand alone, no laptop or iPad, it’s decent bang for the buck. 

[jerrythek]

45 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Nice walk through by our friend Stu at Merriam.  He makes ONE bizarre comment, however.  Did Roland REALLY achieve a better price point by removing functionality of a USB interface that is already physically in the keyboard?  How did they do this?   Was it magical?  

Often these retail people don't really know the internal workings/decisions/details of engineering. It's just "sales speak".

[GovernorSilver]

I like Stu's reviews but I am also aware that his job is to sell pianos for Merriam Music.

 

There are some comments on that video that he cannot be expected to respond to without losing his job.

 

Nothing wrong in my view though with being a good employee for a business that needs revenue to survive.  Stu's videos have been very helpful to me in my piano search.

[ElmerJFudd]

42 minutes ago, jerrythek said:

Often these retail people don't really know the internal workings/decisions/details of engineering. It's just "sales speak".

 

25 minutes ago, GovernorSilver said:

I like Stu's reviews but I am also aware that his job is to sell pianos for Merriam Music.

 

There are some comments on that video that he cannot be expected to respond to without losing his job.

 

Nothing wrong in my view though with being a good employee for a business that needs revenue to survive.  Stu's videos have been very helpful to me in my piano search.

Yes very much so.  Great channel, tied to a business.  

[CHarrell]

1 hour ago, ElmerJFudd said:

Nice walk through by our friend Stu at Merriam.  He makes ONE bizarre comment, however.  Did Roland REALLY achieve a better price point by removing functionality of a USB interface that is already physically in the keyboard?  How did they do this?   Was it magical?  
 

It’s not an empty slot where you buy the interface and install it if you want it. It’s already bought and paid for.  They are withholding its use at its price point.  Yes, this scheme may very well be an industry first.  I’m confused on how it’s a selling point.  
 

Getting past that now as we’re all aware of their plan.  $999 is a pretty good price point for a PHA4 stage piano with speakers and the Zencore engine, 3 layers/splits each with their own fx and eq settings.  Yes, if you’re gigging stand alone, no laptop or iPad, it’s decent bang for the buck. 

 

I don't get Roland's product lines, they all overlap in features and price in weird ways, and I have a hard time seeing what would entice me to buy one over the other. For example, their dedicated MIDI controller, the A88mk2, sells just a little bit under the RD88. With the 88, you get pitch and mod, some readily assignable knobs, a whole bunch of sounds, built in speakers, and like 6 lbs less than the A88 with the same key action. Who in the world would buy the A88mk2 instead, just for a few unique control surfaces?

 

[GovernorSilver]

50 minutes ago, ElmerJFudd said:

 

Yes very much so.  Great channel, tied to a business.  

 

It's a business that has helped me choose which pianos to audition in person at regional stores.  Stu does a great job of presenting the selling points of each piano without wasting too much time on rambling talk, which to me is the bane of certain other piano reviewing channels.

 

No he will not go out of his way to point out negative aspects of any product, for reasons that should be obvious.  I can get plenty of cons from reading this forum, Piano World, etc.  anyway.

 

Processing the information (selling points, negative points, etc.) with critical thinking and personal hands-on time on pianos is the work I have to do myself.  I have to be my own Consumer Reports here 😎