*Sunday Bashing* Jordan Rudess hears Alicia Keys for the first time

[MathOfInsects]

1 hour ago, Sean M. H. said:

Not to hijack this thread even further from the original post...but am I remembering correctly that Jordan used to post in this very forum years ago, and was eventually sort of "run off"?  I'm sure that's oversimplifying it--and this predates my active involvement in the forum, so apologies to the forum OGs if I've mischaracterized it lol.

He posted here a couple of times. Just hit and run to promote a rig-rundown video or performance dates. I know someone described him has having been "run off" the forum recently, but he was never really "on" the forum. It's my impression that he's merely been off being JR without any regard to anything having to do with KC.

[CHarrell]

3 hours ago, Outkaster said:

JR was never really relevant and will never be thought off in the same light as other heavy weight players because the soul isn't there.   Most of the keyboard players I know don't really talk about him or know who he is for that matter. 

 

I didn't want to comment too much on this thread because I've been striving to be very conscious and transformative of a longheld tendency of mine to put down musicians out of an obfuscated desire to avoid working on myself--so much easier this way!--but I think Rudess hits our kind of radar more because he's one of the big gear demoists in keyboardland. Seems just about every company hires him to demo and show off a product.

[BluMunk]

I just went and listened to the original and the video in the OP.  First, I'll add myself to the list of folks who don't think they've ever heard this song before. It's possible I heard it a few times 15 years ago when it was released, but I'm not much of a pop-radio listener, and in that era of my life in particular I was probably as un-plugged from new music as I ever have been. Great track, though.

 

Second, I think I have to fault Pianote for the fail on this one. I think they took Drumeo's idea, and failed to understand "what makes this video great". All the Drumeo videos seem to set up expectations for the viewers and the performer around what the objective is: learn the song and come up with a part that fits. In this video it feels like they took the framework without any of the context or instruction: "here's a song you've never heard. Show us your stuff, keyboard wizard!" So, he did what he was asked to do.

None of the discussion about what Jordan is hearing in the arrangement that is leading him to make various choices, which is the hallmark of those Drumeo videos. And, to be honest, this song (and maybe the genre as a whole) is not a really good choice for this kind of exercise anyway, as from beginning to end there is almost no variation in orchestration, tempo, feel, or anything in the original track. If you've figured out the 4 bar loop, 2 bar chorus lead in, and the 4 bar chorus loop, you're done. For five minutes.

tl;dr ... in retrospect, this is a lame video because of Pianote, not because of JR.

[kpl1228]

This kind of stuff reminds me of the terrible "reaction videos" making the circuit on YouTube, where a teenager gets played a video of  "Black Dog" by Led Zeppelin, or a young African American married couple gets played scenes from Blazing Saddles, or some old white lady gets played some 50 Cent. The videos are full of overacted reactions, and the "cute" idea of someone listening or watching something out of their wheelhouse turns into a silly melodramatic exercise in the pursuit of "likes" and "subscribes."

 

[dalpozlead]

Jordan is a pure genius (please listen his solo work, not just Dream Theater related music).

I'm sad he stopped using Kurzweil for his main lead sound... his signature lead was so creative and original, and I don't think this can be replicated 100% in other boards.... I find Korg's latest synths produces dull digital attempts, which is sad.

In the other side, Alicia's singing style (I name it "constant semitoning") is unbearable to me... I recall creating a topic about her many years ago.

So, a very uncomfortable video...

[Tusker]

I was very uncomfortable also.  Whoever said Music is the universal language was completely wrong. There are many languages. 

 

 

[stoken6]

On 1/21/2024 at 5:22 PM, MathOfInsects said:

First day on the internet

"Forumite sees Internet for the first time"

 

Cheers, Mike

[Bill H.]

21 hours ago, o0Ampy0o said:

If I ever heard any portion of that song I didn’t hear enough to recognize it. 

 

I think that's whats going on with some. The song has moved into general usage - but often for just a few seconds before a voice-over announces some NYC event. It's kind of taken the same space as Ol' Blue Eyes at times. But if you weren't familiar with the song as a pop hit, it might not register. 

 

The video reminds me of what we used to do when younger - screwing around and throwing heavy blues riffs over a pop song in rehearsal for fun. And that's what this is - for fun. 

[Jazz+]

He looks a little like the guy in the movie "Whiplash"

[Bobadohshe]

I think it's lame.

[Tusker]

15 hours ago, Tusker said:

Whoever said Music is the universal language was completely wrong.

 

Here's JR, playing in a language with which he is more familiar. When I was a teenager, I thought I could learn all genres of music. Now increasingly I find that the idioms of one language can actually grate against the idioms of another. Some spices do not mix well together.

 

 

 

 

[Analogaddict]

When I heard JR covering Elton tunes I wanted to slap him (just his fingers, of course). 😂 He is one of those musicians that don’t play the song at all. He plays his instrument. With amazing facility, but I can’t help feeling that this kind of playing had its place back in the 1970s, when players like Emerson, Wakeman and Moraz were pushing the limits of what was considered possible by people in the rock scene. Nowadays, it’s easy enough to go online and hear somebody like Quennel Gaskin who plays just as fast as any rock virtuoso and WAY more interesting stuff. And grooves hard! Jazz musos like Joey De Francesco, Oscar Peterson and Art Tatum are also still in a league of their own. 

[Tusker]

1 minute ago, Analogaddict said:

When I heard JR covering Elton tunes I wanted to slap him (just his fingers, of course). 😂 He is one of those musicians that don’t play the song at all. He plays his instrument. With amazing facility, but I can’t help feeling that this kind of playing had its place back in the 1970s, when players like Emerson, Wakeman and Moraz were pushing the limits of what was considered possible by people in the rock scene. Nowadays, it’s easy enough to go online and hear somebody like Quennel Gaskin who plays just as fast as any rock virtuoso and WAY more interesting stuff. And grooves hard! Jazz musos like Joey De Francesco, Oscar Peterson and Art Tatum are also still in a league of their own. 

 

Yes, back in the 70s it was fresh. Maybe further back still?

 

Apart from the European prog rock keyboardists, you mention giants steeped in American idioms. (To me, Gaskin is a giant like Tatum heh.) Someone described Jazz as the only new classical music developed in the very American 20th century. It's a rich, diverse language which informs everything from pop to hip hop to bluegrass. JR may live on the East Coast of America but as he says his musical roots are classical. Further east. In an earlier time.

 

Perhaps this is an argument between the 19th century and the 20th century and between two sides of a pond?

[CEB]

Jordan is great. Any one of us who can monetize their talent and make a good living off this stuff we do has my respect.   If you want to hear Jordan play with soul ask him to play a Chopin Nocturne.  You want to hear something worse than this listen to me trying to play a Reggae piece.  😀

[CyberGene]

Jazz improvisation is based upon a particular harmonic foundation and it’s therefore not easily applicable over non-jazz harmony. I’ve heard various attempts with different success, some great, some awful but when they work, the underlying harmony is enriched or even replaced, otherwise it sounds out of place. There’s also classical music improvisation, check out Gabriela Montero for example, it’s more composing in real time, rather than improvisation over chords. Classical piano/organ composers used to improvise a lot. 

[re Pete]

JR obviously is excellent musician. To me, the vid is just an exercise in internet presence click bait.

Music doesn't need an angle. I close my eyes and use ears. A dozen dancers has no effect with what I hear.

Marketing schtick. How does a billion dollar company use a Christmas song all year to promote Claritin (the most wonderful time of the year) instead of hiring a composer for something new? These companies need to let the holiday stuff rest until the holiday season. 

Why did Liberace wear those suits? Schtick. 

There's a very good Japanese jazz pianist who wears kimonos while performing. Looks cool and I like her, but to me still schtick to standout from the crowd.

   

 

[BluMunk]

1 hour ago, re Pete said:

JR obviously is excellent musician. To me, the vid is just an exercise in internet presence click bait.

Music doesn't need an angle. I close my eyes and use ears. A dozen dancers has no effect with what I hear.

Marketing schtick. How does a billion dollar company use a Christmas song all year to promote Claritin (the most wonderful time of the year) instead of hiring a composer for something new? These companies need to let the holiday stuff rest until the holiday season. 

Why did Liberace wear those suits? Schtick. 

There's a very good Japanese jazz pianist who wears kimonos while performing. Looks cool and I like her, but to me still schtick to standout from the crowd.

   

 

It maybe gets off topic for this thread, but I hear you... and, it's all marketing. The idea of music as being free of its earthly trappings, and dressing in a conforming, non-distracting fashion to communicate seriousness and professionalism is just as much marketing as wearing something distinctive. The minute music becomes something someone is doing for $$, it stops being just about the music. To me, if it ever feels like someone is all marketing and low substance, I'm probably going to loose interest quickly (and in these days of 'content creators', whooo boy howdy), but I'd never begrudge anyone working an angle to keep ears on them and money flowing.

Also, some people are just quirky and aren't good at conforming. There are plenty of artists out there who truly find that freely expressing who they are means being loud and flashy and stand-out-ish. Not schtick- authenticity.

Anyway... a hijack I know, but relevant. As much as JR might rub some people the wrong way sometimes, I don't think I've ever seen him be un-authentic in his enthusiasm or persona.

 

[re Pete]

I don't think it's getting off topic for the thread much. To me, it's about getting attention or why would he be doing it?

I don't begrudge the kimono thing. Do whatever you have to, to make a living playing jazz in this country. But still comes off to me as a gimmick.

Yuja Wang with the high tight dresses. She probably has fun with the clothes, but admits people buy tickets on the right of the hall to get a good look at her legs and maybe more.

It is what it is these days.   

[Adan]

I guess I've really lost touch with my principles, because if I saw a video promising Jordan Rudess in a Kimono, I'd click.

[kpl1228]

On 1/22/2024 at 11:32 AM, Lou Gehrig Charles said:

"Hmmmm, that doesn't really work there.  Did you try this, Or this?  Or......  This??  Ha ha ha ha!"

I read that in Wolfgang's voice from the movie, complete with giggle. Fantastic burn.

“The rest is just the same, right?”

[Jim Alfredson]

I've never heard that song before either. I saw the video a few weeks ago. I thought it was entertaining, which is what it is supposed to be. 

The commentary in this thread says more about the posters than it does about JR.

[jazzpiano88]

10 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I've never heard that song before either. I saw the video a few weeks ago. I thought it was entertaining, which is what it is supposed to be. 

The commentary in this thread says more about the posters than it does about JR.

 

I would agree with that.  I purchased your CD based on people posting here.    After listening, I promptly threw it in the trash (actually in a drawer).    It will take a couple extra weeks to purge from my online libraries.   Can I get my money back (not expecting anything I can send the CD back to you).

[Jim Alfredson]

3 minutes ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

I would agree with that.  I purchased your CD based on people posting here.    After listening, I promptly threw it in the trash (actually in a drawer).    It will take a couple extra weeks to purge from my online libraries.   Can I get my money back (not expecting anything I can send the CD back to you).

I have a better idea: I'll return the favor and buy your CD and listen to it. If I don't like it, I'll bring up that fact on a completely unrelated topic here on the forum. Deal? Just post a link where I can buy it.

[jazzpiano88]

3 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

8 minutes ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

I would agree with that.  I purchased your CD based on people posting here.    After listening, I promptly threw it in the trash (actually in a drawer).    It will take a couple extra weeks to purge from my online libraries.   Can I get my money back (not expecting anything I can send the CD back to you).

I have a better idea: I'll return the favor and buy your CD and listen to it. If I don't like it, I'll bring up that fact on a completely unrelated topic here on the forum. Deal? Just post a link where I can buy it.

 

You know I was giving it back to you based on your hypocrisy in this forum.  Sorry,  just call-em as I see um. 

 

[Jim Alfredson]

59 minutes ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

You know I was giving it back to you based on your hypocrisy in this forum.  Sorry,  just call-em as I see um. 

 

? Not sure where I'm being hypocritical, but ok.

[Jim Alfredson]

BTW, I've played with Ulysses Owens, Jr. He's a fantastic drummer. 

[retrokeys]

I always find it amusing. If someone like Rudess, who is tachnically super proficient, shows up here., the  bashers  show up and complain that the plalyng should have been more restrained and simpler with more feel. If someone with feel and simplicity shows up, then somebody, usually a frustrated jazzer ,has to point out that Art Tatum or Oscar Peterson could have found better chords played with much better technique.  Tough room

[TommyRude]

On 1/21/2024 at 3:25 PM, Adan said:

I would like to think most of us can agree these "first time" videos are the internet at close to it's most useless.

Unless… it results in something really cool, such as someone quickly & out of the blue coming up with a part that works great.  I would find that really cool.  In this case, maybe not so much, but it did highlight (for me) that creating simple parts that work great and sell is more difficult than it seems.

[MathOfInsects]

I went back to read this thread thinking I was going to see some innocuous non-enthusiasm being overblown into "bashing," but actually it was pretty rough in the aggregate. Damn.

I don't have anything against him--what's to have against? He's a monstrous player and obviously talented AF. He shreds (for better or worse--worse, here, IMO).

I just couldn't get with the suggestion that Jay-Z and Alicia Keys were sitting around waiting for the keyboard player from Dream Theater to finally validate them and their careers. There's a lot to unpack there...

[TommyRude]

4 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

I would agree with that.  I purchased your CD based on people posting here.    After listening, I promptly threw it in the trash (actually in a drawer).    It will take a couple extra weeks to purge from my online libraries.   Can I get my money back (not expecting anything I can send the CD back to you).

?????  haven’t been around for a while, but what the hell is going on around here?  Jim needs zero defense from me, but jeez