*Sunday Bashing* Jordan Rudess hears Alicia Keys for the first time

[Adan]

5 hours ago, TommyRude said:

Unless… it results in something really cool, such as someone quickly & out of the blue coming up with a part that works great.  I would find that really cool.  In this case, maybe not so much, but it did highlight (for me) that creating simple parts that work great and sell is more difficult than it seems.

That's a fair point, and I'm definitely guilty of hyperbole in the sentence you quote from my earlier post.  The real question is not whether this genre is more useful than cat videos -- clearly it is -- but rather whether it's useful enough to spend time on.  I'm not convinced that it's the best use of my time to watch a musician, even a great one, scrape together their first thoughts in reaction to something they've never heard before. Then again, if I'm really serious about being more efficient with my time, there's a long list of truly useless crap I should cut out of my internet browsing.

[16251]

20 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

I've never heard that song before either. I saw the video a few weeks ago. I thought it was entertaining, which is what it is supposed to be. 

The commentary in this thread says more about the posters than it does about JR.

I went back and stand by my comments. Of course JR is an amazing player and everyone in that video is probably great at what they do. If this video was an original of JR's, then I can see the entertainment value of how he creates a song but it seems to me using a song his fans probably don't dig or know seems like something you'd see on Fox News, though the main reason I don't like it is they all seem dripping in Smugness and I hate smugness.

 

I watched these videos to get a better understanding of this thread. 

 

 

 

[Mitch Towne]

13 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

I would agree with that.  I purchased your CD based on people posting here.    After listening, I promptly threw it in the trash (actually in a drawer).    It will take a couple extra weeks to purge from my online libraries.   Can I get my money back (not expecting anything I can send the CD back to you).

[jazzpiano88]

7 hours ago, Mitch Towne said:

21 hours ago, jazzpiano88 said:

I would agree with that.  I purchased your CD based on people posting here.    After listening, I promptly threw it in the trash (actually in a drawer).    It will take a couple extra weeks to purge from my online libraries.   Can I get my money back (not expecting anything I can send the CD back to you).

 

Yeah, maybe I was out of line asymmetrically escalating after Jim's post taking a personal swipe at the character of most of the people in this thread (conveniently left out of all of the quotes).  But I'd just had enough of that attitude of "if you don't like it there's something wrong with you" back in your face.    It was just a jab at Mister "I can dish it out but can't take it".  

 

 

[MathOfInsects]

16 minutes ago, jazzpiano88 said:

 

Yeah, maybe I was out of line asymmetrically escalating after Jim's post taking a personal swipe at the character of most of the people in this thread (conveniently left out of all of the quotes).  But I'd just had enough of that attitude of "if you don't like it there's something wrong with you" back in your face.    It was just a jab at Mister "I can dish it out but can't take it".  

 

 

What is the burn here, though? That was something he said once, or was it just the idea that saying something bad about the people in thr thread is the same as them (us) saying something about JR?

[David Emm]

This thread has begun to remind me of an episode of Woody's Piano Shack, wherein he said 

"We're going to hook this up and see if any brown smoke comes out of the circuitry."

[Mighty Motif Max]

3 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

What is the burn here, though? That was something he said once, or was it just the idea that saying something bad about the people in thr thread is the same as them (us) saying something about JR?

90% chance this goes back to ye olde Behringer thread…FWIW I don’t see the point.

 

I think retrokeys got it right with this post:

 

21 hours ago, retrokeys said:

I always find it amusing. If someone like Rudess, who is tachnically super proficient, shows up here., the  bashers  show up and complain that the plalyng should have been more restrained and simpler with more feel. If someone with feel and simplicity shows up, then somebody, usually a frustrated jazzer ,has to point out that Art Tatum or Oscar Peterson could have found better chords played with much better technique.  Tough room

[Dave Weiser]

The ultimate interpretation of the song in question has already been released. 

 

 

[AROIOS]

On 1/30/2024 at 7:42 AM, 16251 said:

...I watched these videos to get a better understanding of this thread...

The only thing interesting about that song is the first 5 seconds of drum loop. The arrangement, Alicia's singing and her body jerking all sound/look [deleted].

John Legend and Alicia Keys are two of the least soulful artists out there, it takes quite some effort for a piano player to be that boring.

(Now Jordan better pay me up for sidetracking the bashing)

[dalpozlead]

watching the video on mute reminds me of Pootie Tang😁

[Jim Alfredson]

On 1/30/2024 at 6:33 PM, jazzpiano88 said:

Yeah, maybe I was out of line asymmetrically escalating after Jim's post taking a personal swipe at the character of most of the people in this thread (conveniently left out of all of the quotes).  But I'd just had enough of that attitude of "if you don't like it there's something wrong with you" back in your face.    It was just a jab at Mister "I can dish it out but can't take it".  

Except that's not what I said. And your response didn't make sense even if that is what I said.

As far as not taking it, what can't I take? Criticism? Dude... I've read and heard WAY WORSE than what you wrote about my musical abilities and/or my releases. Believe it or not, I really don't care what you think about me, music, jazz, keyboards, or anything else. I come here to read news about products in the keyboard realm, read some opinions (some of which I agree with, some of which I don't), and hopefully discover something new. 

There's a lot of music I don't care for but there's no need to shit on it or the musicians making it. What's the point? To make me feel better about myself? I like this quote from Marcus Aurelius' Meditations: "You always own the option of having no opinion. There is never any need to get worked up or to trouble your soul about things you can't control. These things are not asking to be judged by you. Leave them alone.”

I feel this way about 99% of the music that's popular. Hell, I feel this way about 99% of all popular creative content, be they TV shows (enough with the Marvel and Star Wars please), movies (ditto), books, celebrities, etc. Maybe I'm just permanently unhip, but while I don't like that stuff, I also recognize that it's not made for me, it has no effect on me, so why bother forming an opinion either way about it? Life is short. I've got better things to do. Move on.

A little self-reflection on why we respond to things the way we do is necessary and healthy, imo.

JR can play. I don't even listen to Dream Theater. Not my style of prog. But he obviously plays the way he wants to play, which is all that matters. If that's not for you, fine. But why dog it?

Did he improve the song at all? Not really and he probably would agree. It's not his style of music, which he readily admits. I thought his contributions to the Animals as Leaders tune were much more appropriate because that's his wheel house. I'd love to see the reverse of this. Take Alicia Keys and have her approach a Dream Theater song.

[CyberGene]

6 hours ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Take Alicia Keys and have her approach a Dream Theater song.

Can’t imagine her to be so delusional as to suggest her noodling should be added as another track to the DT song. 

[Jim Alfredson]

1 hour ago, CyberGene said:

Can’t imagine her to be so delusional as to suggest her noodling should be added as another track to the DT song. 

I'm amazed that people here think he was being serious. He was obviously joking at the end about sending Keys the track. 

[Adan]

Pretty sure Marcus Aurelius never spent a minute on the internet.  If he was alive today, maybe he'd say something like "practice your own art rather than judge someone else's." I tell myself that about eight times a day.

 

But putting aside that I don't practice my music enough, I don't think I'd agree with that principle -- isn't forming opinions about other people's art an essential part of creating our own? And is there something inherently wrong with sharing that thought process with others? How you share matters. Aurelius probably knew the phrase ad hominem, which is the type of argument we should all try to avoid. Just because I don't appreciate the same things you appreciate, shouldn't mean I can't appreciate you. Obvious point, right? But even Marcus Aurelius might have occasionally been challenged to be his best self when typing on a keyboard at someone he will never meet.

 

I appreciate Jim Alfredson trying to elevate the conversation. I take the Aurelius quote to be useful not as an absolute standard but rather as a corrective measure. The pendulum can swing too wide . . . I can get too absorbed in other people's stuff such that I forget about my own. Thinking about the Aurelius quote could help me have a better sense of when to pull back and focus inward.

[ProfD]

3 hours ago, Adan said:

Pretty sure Marcus Aurelius never spent a minute on the internet.  If he was alive today, maybe he'd say something like "practice your own art rather than judge someone else's." I tell myself that about eight times a day.

That is the best approach.

3 hours ago, Adan said:

But putting aside that I don't practice my music enough, I don't think I'd agree with that principle -- isn't forming opinions about other people's art an essential part of creating our own? And is there something inherently wrong with sharing that thought process with others? 

Analyzing other folks' art and/or forming opinions is a distraction and time better spent focusing on one's own art.

3 hours ago, Adan said:

 . . . I can get too absorbed in other people's stuff such that I forget about my own. 

Therein lies the downside.  Stay focused on making one's own creativity a productive endeavor. 😎

[Docbop]

1 hour ago, ProfD said:

That is the best approach.

Analyzing other folks' art and/or forming opinions is a distraction and time better spent focusing on one's own art.

Therein lies the downside.  Stay focused on making one's own creativity a productive endeavor. 😎

 

We're only in it for the money -- Frank Zappa  

[MathOfInsects]

This comes up all the time here.

Sure, the world is full of the "crossed-armed guitar wannabes" watching some shredder play with a better career than they will ever have, saying, "Too many notes, where's the soul." The soul is in his bank account, Captain Nobody. 

But determining what we like and don't like is literally how we develop an aesthetic, both in others and in ourselves. Taste is not an insult, it's an asset.

As rough as some of these comments were, they hit my ear more in the, "Can't deny his talent but he's not for me" camp. That's completely fair and usually the object of those comments would be the first to recognize that their approach could be polarizing. It's essentially the pretext for that video in the first place. 

IMO the only guardrails are that we should never punch down. We are not obligated to find every famous person to be to our liking, that's silly to me. But we should allow room for those still developing to do so without the discouragement of people farther along the road.

I can't speak for him and did not at all feel the aggro post was justified, but if I had to guess I'd say the ruffle was something about knocking all the posters on this thread while fluffing up the "more famous" one in the vid. Just a guess. Maybe it registered as "punching down."

As for the "send this to Alicia Keys" thing...I guess you have to have found the previous 10 minutes sufficiently condescending to have that hit your ear wrong. The whole thing seemed like an elaborate in-joke about how "basic" the Jay-Z track was and how complex JR's additions were. There's a whole lot packed into that duffel bag that it's hard not to see, once you know it's there. 

[ProfD]

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

But determining what we like and don't like is literally how we develop an aesthetic, both in others and in ourselves. Taste is not an insult, it's an asset.

Sure.  There is value in analysis especially from a self-development perspective.

 

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

IMO the only guardrails are that we should never punch down.

Absolutely correct.  That's where we should blow the whistle and throw the flag or pull the card (yellow or red or whatever).🤣

 

1 hour ago, MathOfInsects said:

But we should allow room for those still developing to do so without the discouragement of people farther along the road.

Always encourage others especially those on the come up.  Most sage musicians like yourself know the deay-o.

 

it's the goatee stroking folks who pass judgement and/or criticize others who need to check before they wreck themselves.😁😎

 

 

[CyberGene]

3 hours ago, ProfD said:

Analyzing other folks' art and/or forming opinions is a distraction and time better spent focusing on one's own art.

This is one of the rare moments when I strongly disagree with you 😀 If you are a natural born genius like Bach, Mozart, etc. then you can just ignore everybody else and focus on your “art” (BTW, even Bach studied some of the masters and is how he got blind, by copying secretly sheet music for himself each night with little lighting because he wanted to study it but his brother forbade him. He also traveled hundreds of kilometers on foot to listen to Buxtehude and study his counterpoint which some say is the most significant influence on Bach’s music; so that leaves us with Mozart only 🤣). For us, as insecure amateurs, I believe it’s of huge importance to study, discuss, argue about  music, art, tastes, trends.

[MathOfInsects]

Just now, CyberGene said:

This is one of the rare moments when I strongly disagree with you 😀 If you are a natural born genius like Bach, Mozart, etc. then you can just ignore everybody else and focus on your “art” (BTW, even Bach studied some of the masters and is how he got blind, by copying sheet music as young. He also traveled hundreds of kilometers on foot to listen to Buxtehude and study his counterpoint which done say is the most significant influence on Bach’s music; so that leaves us with Mozart only 🤣). For us, as insecure amateurs, I believe it’s of huge importance to study, discuss, argue about  music, art, tastes, trends.

And Mozart had Leopold. Is Nanerle older or younger? I believe older. So she's in the mix too, and would not have been recognized for her talent the way a boy was. I've often wondered if some of those earliest "compositions" were like the little Russian baby hitting random notes, and Leopold hearing the composition "inside" those impulses and cleaning them up nice for company.

[ProfD]

2 minutes ago, CyberGene said:

This is one of the rare moments when I strongly disagree with you 😀

 

...even Bach studied some of the masters...

 

For us, as insecure amateurs, I believe it’s of huge importance to study, discuss, argue about  music, art, tastes, trends.

No problem.  As I mentioned above, analyzing to study, learn and grow is great. 

 

One should not waste time analyzing to become a critic and/or masking their own insecurities.😎

[CHarrell]

11 minutes ago, ProfD said:

it's the goatee stroking folks

 

Don't you think Rudess has been piled on enough in this thread already?

[Jim Alfredson]

4 minutes ago, ProfD said:

One should not waste time analyzing to become a critic and/or masking their own insecurities.😎

Yes.

 

It's fine to form an opinion. It's even fine to voice that opinion to your loved ones or close friends. I'm not even claiming I never joke about music or musicians I don't like with my wife or close musician friends. There are plenty of awful songs out there to have a little fun with, bad singers to mock, and banal lyrics to ridicule. But to shit on a musician on a public forum or social media? Why? What good does that do? It's like leaving negative comments on a YouTube video. Why bother? Just go watch something else.

I try to take the attitude that whatever media I personally don't like is just not for me. It's not made for me. It's made for someone else. If someone else likes it and it inspires them or helps them through the day or brings back a good memory, etc. then that's great! It's not for me. Not everything is for me.

 

I also try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe JR is a bit awkward in general. Most people with that kind of almost savant level talent are, especially when put into situations where they feel like they are being judged or some other great expectation is placed on them. How would you react to hearing a song you don't know for the first time, being asked to play over it with the main part muted, with cameras rolling and six other people listening to you figure it out? That would be slightly off-putting, wouldn't it? And maybe you'd crack some jokes to try and release some tension and maybe those jokes wouldn't land very well. Maybe that awkwardness would manifest as condescension or over-confidence. 

 

When you watch the Animals As Leaders video with Rudess you see what an incredibly fast musical mind he has. He figured that one out in no time at all. So perhaps on the 'easier' one, he was struggling with what to do with it. I remember interviews with Tony Banks where he said that writing three minute pop songs was really hard for him. He could write epic, long-form prog songs all day long, but to write a concise, short pop song was challenging. I've heard many jazzers try to play traditional blues and fail miserably; too many extensions, too much rhythmic chicanery. Its a different mindset.

 

We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

[MathOfInsects]

  

33 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

Yes.

 

It's fine to form an opinion. It's even fine to voice that opinion to your loved ones or close friends. I'm not even claiming I never joke about music or musicians I don't like with my wife or close musician friends. There are plenty of awful songs out there to have a little fun with, bad singers to mock, and banal lyrics to ridicule. But to shit on a musician on a public forum or social media? Why? What good does that do? It's like leaving negative comments on a YouTube video. Why bother? Just go watch something else.

I try to take the attitude that whatever media I personally don't like is just not for me. It's not made for me. It's made for someone else. If someone else likes it and it inspires them or helps them through the day or brings back a good memory, etc. then that's great! It's not for me. Not everything is for me.

 

I also try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe JR is a bit awkward in general. Most people with that kind of almost savant level talent are, especially when put into situations where they feel like they are being judged or some other great expectation is placed on them. How would you react to hearing a song you don't know for the first time, being asked to play over it with the main part muted, with cameras rolling and six other people listening to you figure it out? That would be slightly off-putting, wouldn't it? And maybe you'd crack some jokes to try and release some tension and maybe those jokes wouldn't land very well. Maybe that awkwardness would manifest as condescension or over-confidence. 

 

When you watch the Animals As Leaders video with Rudess you see what an incredibly fast musical mind he has. He figured that one out in no time at all. So perhaps on the 'easier' one, he was struggling with what to do with it. I remember interviews with Tony Banks where he said that writing three minute pop songs was really hard for him. He could write epic, long-form prog songs all day long, but to write a concise, short pop song was challenging. I've heard many jazzers try to play traditional blues and fail miserably; too many extensions, too much rhythmic chicanery. Its a different mindset.

 

We all have our strengths and weaknesses.

 

To be clear, this isn't at all my "fight," I was only making a guess about that escalation.

But to be completely fair, for the sake of discussion...you DID say something out loud about the people in the thread. You didn't go off and think it yourself or say it to your wife or assume the comments were for someone else and just not a good fit for you. You posted them on the same public board as they did. That's fair to observe, yes?

Personally, I think you're welcome to that opinion, and while I don't share it, I completely understand it and think it was fine to have said. But it would seem at odds with the rest of what you said--correct?

Discussion Boards are a funny middle ground. Sure, it's the internet. But it's not really "public" in the same way that youtube is. We are a tiny group of people with a shared interest and true friendships among us. I think it feels to most--as it does to me--like saying something here IS saying something to a friend, in "private." It feels very different from making a public proclamation on a youtube, which is for "everyone." In that case I agree--why bother? But this feels more like a family Thanksgiving table, more than it does a televised Congressional hearing. Maybe the difference is in one's view of the relationships with the people on the board? Something in the realm of whether we think of each other as "friends" or "the public"? Just teasing that idea apart, I'm not sure where it all falls out. 

[jazzpiano88]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

I can't speak for him and did not at all feel the aggro post was justified, but if I had to guess I'd say the ruffle was something about knocking all the posters on this thread while fluffing up the "more famous" one in the vid. Just a guess. Maybe it registered as "punching down."

Do you happen to be a psychologist by day?   That’s a really excellent way to put it.  

[BluMunk]

2 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

"Too many notes, where's the soul." The soul is in his bank account, Captain Nobody. 

Funniest thing I've read all day.

[Jim Alfredson]

12 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

 But to be completely fair, for the sake of discussion...you DID say something out loud about the people in the thread. You didn't go off and think it yourself or say it to your wife or assume the comments were for someone else and just not a good fit for you. You posted them on the same public board as they did. That's fair to observe, yes?

Personally, I think you're welcome to that opinion, and while I don't share it, I completely understand it and think it was fine to have said. But it would seem at odds with the rest of what you said--correct?
 

You seem to me misunderstanding my position. I'm not arguing for saying nothing, for never voicing an opinion. Was what I said really that offensive? Isn't what I said how opinions work? Do they not reflect the attitude of the person espousing them more than they do the focus of the opinion? 

My comment was from a psychological standpoint; why some might feel the need to comment negatively on another's creativity. And not just negatively but rather personally. It was meant to spur discussion and maybe some self-reflection. "Why did I respond so negatively to this?" 
 

 

23 minutes ago, MathOfInsects said:

Discussion Boards are a funny middle ground. Sure, it's the internet. But it's not really "public" in the same way that youtube is. We are a tiny group of people with a shared interest and true friendships among us. I think it feels to most--as it does to me--like saying something here IS saying something to a friend, in "private." It feels very different from making a public proclamation on a youtube, which is for "everyone." In that case I agree--why bother? But this feels more like a family Thanksgiving table, more than it does a televised Congressional hearing. Maybe the difference is in one's view of the relationships with the people on the board? Something in the realm of whether we think of each other as "friends" or "the public"? Just teasing that idea apart, I'm not sure where it all falls out. 

 

That's fair and I did think about this. On the one hand, yeah we're just a bunch of keyboard nerds nerding out together in a small community. On the other hand, this forum isn't private. The posts are easily found via search engines and will exist forever. I guess if one is completely anonymous it doesn't matter but for those of us that are a bit more public, maybe some discretion isn't such a bad thing. Especially if the side effect is less negativity. 

In my teens I was a prog snob. Then I became a jazz snob in my 20s. In my 30s I started to realize all that was a waste of time. Music is music. If I don't like a certain style of music, it's just not for me and that's fine. It doesn't mean it is objectively bad or that people who like it are dumb. If I don't like a certain player, then it's not for me. It doesn't mean he/she is 'souless' or 'boring' and the people who like him/her are dumb. It just means I don't connect with it. That's fine.

OR... maybe I can learn something about myself by exploring why I don't like it. And maybe I can then appreciate it for what it is instead of what I want it to be.

Or maybe I don't have time for any of that so I don't get worked up about it.

Either way, it just bothers me to see musicians ragging on musicians, especially fellow keyboardists in this small community. It's the same reason it bothered me when Lachey Doley was getting shit on. But I guess I should take my own advice and shut up.

[MathOfInsects]

6 minutes ago, Jim Alfredson said:

You seem to me misunderstanding my position. I'm not arguing for saying nothing, for never voicing an opinion. Was what I said really that offensive? Isn't what I said how opinions work? Do they not reflect the attitude of the person espousing them more than they do the focus of the opinion? 

My comment was from a psychological standpoint; why some might feel the need to comment negatively on another's creativity. And not just negatively but rather personally. It was meant to spur discussion and maybe some self-reflection. "Why did I respond so negatively to this?" 
 

 

 

That's fair and I did think about this. On the one hand, yeah we're just a bunch of keyboard nerds nerding out together in a small community. On the other hand, this forum isn't private. The posts are easily found via search engines and will exist forever. I guess if one is completely anonymous it doesn't matter but for those of us that are a bit more public, maybe some discretion isn't such a bad thing. Especially if the side effect is less negativity. 

In my teens I was a prog snob. Then I became a jazz snob in my 20s. In my 30s I started to realize all that was a waste of time. Music is music. If I don't like a certain style of music, it's just not for me and that's fine. It doesn't mean it is objectively bad or that people who like it are dumb. If I don't like a certain player, then it's not for me. It doesn't mean he/she is 'souless' or 'boring' and the people who like him/her are dumb. It just means I don't connect with it. That's fine.

OR... maybe I can learn something about myself by exploring why I don't like it. And maybe I can then appreciate it for what it is instead of what I want it to be.

Or maybe I don't have time for any of that so I don't get worked up about it.

Either way, it just bothers me to see musicians ragging on musicians, especially fellow keyboardists in this small community. It's the same reason it bothered me when Lachey Doley was getting shit on. But I guess I should take my own advice and shut up.

I'd have to go back and read again, which it actually took me many posts in to do for the first time, but...my takeaway was not that anyone was shitting on JR, but rather specifically on the components of the video that OP posted. That was the "opening gambit" for this discussion, and both positive and negative reactions in response feel like fair game to me. It just turned out that many were negative. Maybe I'm forgetting, though.

Of course opinions reflect on people, but I didn't get the sense you were making a general statement about opinions, correct? It read more like it was a swat at all the people commenting negatively on the vid. I can try to read it more generally but my instinct says it was the latter (which again, is fair game and one of the common posts in a thread like this).

Speaking only for me, I'm almost always 100% sure that I'm disliking something most people like or liking something most people dislike, so it's almost never a jealousy response. More like, "Something must be wrong with me, because I can't find a way to/not to like this." In JR's case, safe to say he can play circles around all of us and probably could as a 10-year-old too. I don't perceive that anyone's pissed about that. I honestly feel it was a discussion about the thing that was put out there to be discussed--that particular video, with that particular content. Given that, it seems perfectly fine and fair to voice "both" sides of any given response, and I do feel it's a bit unfair to paint exactly half of the potential responses--any negative ones--as being a poor reflection on the people who have them. 

Beyond that, I'm a little uncomfortable engaging about that part directly further, because the reaction to your post wasn't from me. I sort of nosed in out of curiosity to see if I could tease apart the components of it. Pure curiosity on my part, and I definitely should have taken your advice on that one and just asked the dog about it. 

[Adan]

Speaking of lines that shouldn't be crossed (were we? Not sure . . . but anyway) I don't think I've ever criticized the music of a forum member who has shared their music here. Constructive criticism maybe, but just saying someone's music is  bad? . . .  in my opinion, that just shouldn't happen.  This should be a place where people should feel no reluctance to share their work.  In the appropriate thread, of course.

[Jim Alfredson]

10 hours ago, MathOfInsects said:

Of course opinions reflect on people, but I didn't get the sense you were making a general statement about opinions, correct? It read more like it was a swat at all the people commenting negatively on the vid. 

It was not. It was a general comment about everyone's opinions on the video, positive or negative. I wrote, "The commentary in this thread says more about the posters than it does about JR." I was specifically talking about the opinions expressed. I was not ragging on any one specific person or subset of people. I honestly don't know why that comment was so offensive.